Physical Illusions, Couldn't/Shouldn't they be Manipulation spells? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

The title already says it, but I was wondering, if at least Improved Invisibility actually manipulates light according to the description, shouldn't it be an Environmental Manipulation instead of an Illusion?

I'm not sure about the other physical illusions such as Trid Phantasm, by their description they could fool technology just as well as creating actual light, pressure, heat etc.

Anyway, even if these illusions do not work like Environmental Manipulations, what hinders a character to create a manipulation version of the spell? Would the drain change?

IIRC in SR3 there was the hot potato spell and one that actually makes an object unpleasantly hot, but without igniting it.

[Stahlseele]

Please, not the Discussion about improved invisibility and bending light again.
And the hot potatoe did not actually make things hot, it just FELT hot to the Target of the spell.
As you can not CREATE anything using magic, all you can do is create Fata Morghanae.
There's no single Illusion that you can actually touch

[Chibu]

On the note of 'not being able to create things with magic'... Isn't there a random Create Food spell in one of the editions?

But, I know where you're coming from Dakka. The description of Physical Illusion spells is very strange. Some of them you could probably do with manipulations, like invis. But, generally manipulation spells do have higher drain as use energy to manipulate the physical world is pretty rough.

Physical illusion spells are said to be able to be detected by technological sensors. That is to say, if it is a multi-sensory spell, like Trid Phantasm, theoretically the weight sensors in the floor that your illusory imp is walking on should go off. But that opens a big can of stale worms that probably needs to be ignored. For the sake of game balance, illusions are not allowed to perminantly harm anything, but, if they have weight and such, they should be able to. Which we'll ignore. So, as for Physical Illusions, it's probably best to assume they work the same as mana base illusions except that they trick technology into 'thinking' that it's seeing/hearing/feeling things as well, even though it actually does not. (Then again, what is reality but what we perceive (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) But it is correct that you don't ACTUALLY touch or smell an illusion spell, you just think you do.

As far as making them into manipulation spells... Well, some of them are definitely possible, like Hot potato. However, no matter what the spell creation rules actually say. If there is a cannon Illusion spell, (We'll use Hot Potato), if it's possible to make a manip spell of it, you should always increase the drain. The point of illusion spells is that they cannot permanently harm a character. Since Manipulation "Make Metal Hot For Real™" spell would probably permanently harm someone, the drain should go up.

I don't really agree that you can't create anything with magic in Shadowrun. I do concede that it is mostly out of reach for any PCs as it takes an incredible amount of power to do so. But, if you want to take +34(one level above D, physical), then you're welcome to attempt to make a car out of astral energy as far as I'm concerned.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, there IS such a Spell . . but we will ignore that one.
Else i will start with Variations of the same spell, able to creat SIMPLE ORGANIC MATTER . .
CREATE BULLSHIT. Creates Force m³ Bullshit at a Location the Spellslinger choses.

[Chibu]

ROFL. Coyote shamans need that spell (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Everyone needs that Spell.
And the Wet Willy Spell.
And the Wedgie Spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

So the most simple and consistent way to deal with this is to errata the improved invisibility spell should to be described just like the other illusions. "Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological sensors as well."

Create Food always sounded weird to me as it actually created matter.

[nerdiness]Create Bullshit would actually create ((4*PI*F³)/3) m³ of male bovine excrement. [/nerdiness]

[Stahlseele]

I call Bullshit, the Spells Description clearly states force m³!

[Dakka Dakka]

Which desciption? Spells usually have a radius of Force meters, which correpsonds to a sphere with the aforementioned volume.

[Larme]

The title already says it, but I was wondering, if at least Improved Invisibility actually manipulates light according to the description, shouldn't it be an Environmental Manipulation instead of an Illusion?

I'm not sure about the other physical illusions such as Trid Phantasm, by their description they could fool technology just as well as creating actual light, pressure, heat etc.

Anyway, even if these illusions do not work like Environmental Manipulations, what hinders a character to create a manipulation version of the spell? Would the drain change?

IIRC in SR3 there was the hot potato spell and one that actually makes an object unpleasantly hot, but without igniting it.

Short answer? Game balance. Manipulation is already super useful, we don't want to add illusions in there too.

Also, there's no precise way to define what's manipulation or not. If all manipulation of physical matter and energy was in the manipulation category, then it would encompass almost everything, including most health spells and most indirect combat spells. In fact, manipulation used to encompass indirect combat spells back in 3rd ed... My explanation would be that the category of spell depends on how the spell formula is written. It's an illusion spell if its formula is written as such. And the reason you'd write them differently would be based on the way different kinds of magic behave. Environmental manipulations that created realistic physical illusions would have huge drain, because environmental manipulations are a lot less efficient than illusions. It's much easier to create a detailed, realistic illusion using illusion magic, because that's what it specializes in. Also, fireball is written as an indirect combat spell because combat magic allows you to hurl energies directly at your target. To make a fireball with manipulation magic, it would have to conjure both the fire and the force directing the fire, making the drain unmanageable. I extrapolate this from how other manipulation spells create just one element or force at a time, they don't combine them together like a directed combat spell can. Yeah, it was different in 3rd ed, but that's what we call a retcon.

[Writer]

Does the Bullshit spell affect the senses, or does it give a -1 penalty to dignity for every hit on the spellcasting roll?

[Chibu]

Aren't there specifically multi-element manipulation spells (fire/water aura or something?)

[Stahlseele]

There's something called Firewater in SR4 . .
Dumb Name, Spell incorporates both Fire and Water Elemental Effect.
And the Spell creates one cubic meter of bullshit per point of force on a location chosen by the Spellslinger.
Sense impairment Smell(for obvious reasons) Needs a Willpower-Roll against Force to not Throw up.
And yes, i am, right now, bullshitting you ^^

[Larme]

Aren't there specifically multi-element manipulation spells (fire/water aura or something?)

It's a combat spell, and its drain is ridiculous.

[Chibu]

Yep. that's pretty sick drain (at least compared to the other spells).

[Screaming Eagle]

Far more ammusing to stack together a Thunder and Lightning spell or something else vaguly fitting, doing sonic and electric... Mostly cause making huge Kabooms to deafen and disrupt electronics is AWESOME and well worth the uber-drain.

My groups mage keeps asking about the details on the illusions too and what falls in what catagory... I tend to have the spell not bend light but create the image of the area without the target there dynamically for Improved Invis. (where as the regular version is just a mind trick) Then again its the mages spell... why not ask them how it works if they made it 'started" with it?

Isn't there a mind erasing or memory modify spell? Isn't this basically invisablity (mana) after the fact? I suspect this could be tweeked, I even seem to recall a "Someone elses problem" mental manipulation from a 2nd ed module that was pretty dang close to this.

[Stahlseele]

You mean Disregard.

[Screaming Eagle]

Yes... best part of that run was figuring out how to get on the good side of the mage who had it and getting it off them... good times.

[Stahlseele]

*gg*
I imagine Much fun could be had if it was cast on the whole team.
Every time they lose sight of each other, they forget each other ^^

[Mäx]

It's a combat spell, and its drain is ridiculous.

Firewater/Napalm are the example multielement combat spells, but there are also Manipulation spells Firewater Aura and Napalm Wall in Digital Grimoire.

[Kingboy]

You mean Disregard.

Label me "intrigued"...any more info on this, such as the module in question it comes from? I have a Social (Mystic) Adept who might be interested in researching an up to date version of this spell.

[Stahlseele]

It's not really invisibility, it's just something that makes people go:"Oh, he belongs here, no trouble, not worth thinking about, notworth looking at again" and later:"Huh? whom do you mean? yeah, someone was here, he was small/tall, slim/fat had light blonde reddish dark black blue hair, grey blue brown green eyes and wore clothes" Nothing remarkable.
I think it was in SR2 or 1.

[Kingboy]

Oh I'm aware that it's nothing like Invisibility, rather it's essentially a spell version of Blandness. The Hitchiker reference to the SEP field made me well aware of that, and is honestly part of the reason I find the spell an entertaining concept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyone happen to know off hand what module/source this was in?

[Chibu]

Disregard
Type: M - Range: Touch - Duration: S - Target: 4 - Drain: M
The disregard spell places the subject "outside" the perceptions of other individuals. The subject remains visible and detectable by any mechanical means, but individuals simply disregard or fail to notice the subject. A character may defeat the spell by making a successful Intelligence Test against a target number equal to twice the number of successes the spellcaster achieved on his Spell Success Test.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, that was Awakenings, p 136. As far as I know that was the only publishing, thankfully.

Basically, it makes it pretty much impossible for the character to be detected by any living being. And with a drain of M... Anyway, my group has house ruled this spell out of existence because it's simply too good. It just isn't on par with other spells. Invisibility, for instance, has the same drain but is alot easier for the character to be detected.

[Screaming Eagle]

I played the module a dogs age ago.. literaly... god I feel old right now...

Data retrival/ hacking job, infultrate an grab, nearly no astral security, light physical. Get to the objective on the second floor and there is another runner team on site doing the same job. Their mage is invisable waiting for trouble, their decker grabing the data as the PC's arive and setting off the alar acciedentally, mage had a shotgun. It was bad (oh wait, I mean AWESOME, my taser did more damage then the shotgun, score!) Hope that helps someone who knows more then me about the books, my GM at the time wasn't big on letting us into his "stash" of modual books (not that he used them much). As of 2004-5 he was missing 2 items from the entire print series of Shadowrun. It was quite a spread. Good times.

It would stat out in 4th roughly:
Disregard/ Someone Body Elses' Problem Field
Drain F/2 or (F/2) +2
LOS or LOS(A) - Mana, Mental manipulation, Sustained, Minor Change? (another +2 drain if major)
Cause persons in the area of effect to disregard their surroundings provised they are not overt or hostile. Opposed by Willpower... again give or take...