D20 Shadowrun, to D20 or not to D20? Options

[last_of_the_grea...]

Due to another thread I didn't want to disrupt further, I decided to open a dedicated one.

Personally, I enjoy Shadowrun and it's "D6 system." I also enjoy D&D 3.0 (I never got 3.5 'cause I'm poor). I like them for different reasons. I like D&D/D20 for the simplicity and ease of play, as well as the genericity (is that a word?).

Shadowrun has a solid background and good support for it's source material.

D20 has several different sets of source material, some good, some bad and some plain average. The choice to buy and use remains yours.

Shadowrun has mucho flexibility in character generation that advance slowly.

D20 has easy to understand classes that start out not as flexible, but built for the job and allowing for some style and advance with noticable results quickly.

If D20 went toe to toe with Shadowrun using just the core system, I'd have to say shadowrun wins. D20's strength is in the open game licence. This guarantees continuous support for the product, but on a buyer beware basis.

All in all, I see no problem with liking both.

[Phaeton]

Simplicity my arse. I like the tables in the SR3 main manual a hella more than the D&D manuals.

But, my 2 :nuyen: is...NO. NO. FOR LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY NUUUUUUUUUUUU...

[Adarael]

Shadowrun inherently works against the style of any level-based system; a shadowrun character should not have a series of epiphanies, suddenly being able to spend of bunch of skillpoints but ONLY after those ephiphanies. I've never seen a d20 game that wasn't level-based.

Class-wise, I don't think there'd be much of a problem. Shadowrun's soft-class based anyhow.

I can't think of any d20 games that don't use hit points - and I find that vaguely bothersome. Staging of damage/grades of success could be worked into the amount over the TN you hit on your rolls - like Legend of the 5 Rings, but with the 'raises' L5R has ocurring after the fact.

I dislike the nature of a flat 1-20 scale of probability. I like the sliding arc shadowrun's die system presents. It more accurately represents the differences between 'average' and 'professional' (let's say 2 and 4 dice, respectively) and the relatively small difference between master and grandmaster (let's say 8 and 10 dice, respectively).

I like feats. I like feats a lot. d20's got that, at least.

I like Shadowrun better. The system is tighter, more accurate, less prone to random results, and has dice pools. I love by dice pools. You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.

[Solstice]

Well I feel basically the same way. However, the rediculous complexity of shadowrun rules really works against it IMO. It feels like you can not abritrate as much in Shadowrun like you can in D&D. Also I like d12, d20, d8, d10, d4 dice. :D Makes you feel like your playing something other than Yatzee!

[John Campbell]

The big flaw with the "one system to rule them all" attitude is that the game mechanics do affect the atmosphere of the game. For example, if you're a moderately experienced shadowrunner, and there's a punk pointing an Ares Predator at you, do you feel threatened? Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat?

Game mechanics designed to allow heroic fighters to charge fearlessly into hordes of orcs and slaughter them by the dozens are not well-suited to a grittier game where, no matter how experienced you are, any punk with a gun and a decent skill stands a chance of capping you. This is not to say that game mechanics designed to allow for heroic fighters slaughtering orcs by the dozens are bad... just that they're not appropriate for the game I want to play. They're good rules for D&D, but Shadowrun is not - and, IMAO, should not be - just D&D with guns.

[Tanka]

But Yahtzee is fun!

[ting-bu-dong]

Hi,
I have tried to make a shadowrun d20 and it works fine for us *takes cover*. While both d20 and shadowrun are great systems, switching to a new system would have meant great effort in learning with minimum effect, as we already have enough work to do at school (a year before graduation and the school does the graduation process of three years in two).
It, in my opinion, does not matter whether you fire a Ares Predator at a corp guard, roll 10 dice, deal 9S, or point a Pred at a guard, roll one die, get a result of 24, and deal 11 points of damage. The point is that you fire a gun at a guard, its not the dice that count.
The reason why we left D&D for shadowrun d20 is the shadowrun background, its atmosphere and the genre, not the truckloads of dice, the dice pools and the modifier tables that take up page after page.

[Tanka]

[toturi]

[LoseAsDirected]

Check out the book 'Cybernet' by Mongoose Publishing. It's a d20 cyberpunk game.. Combine that with some other d20 rules (races and magic), and you've got a d20 Shadowrun.

Not that I'd play it.

Classes, levels, and hit points do NOT belong in a Shadowrun game.

[Playing Games]

No.becuase classes, levels, hit points, damage, skills, D20's,feats, rules,magic!

Classes,wile shadowrun has things like classes,it doesn't have them.Classes in D20 are pigon holes to place characters.The fighter,could never enjoy singing.The mage could never like swords,or whatever.By the way,if your good with a sword,you are just about as good with staff,but not always the other way around.

Level,and classes. Ugly,stuff.See, you have class levels,then total level.Now, you go up levels,based on a chart,and your total levels.This has 2 huge flaws.One, most classes has rules,and bonus tricks going up to the max amount levels you can take.So, if you multi class,ever you can't get those goodies.multi-classing makes it harder for you too level in past classes. A level 10 mage/7 fighter needs the same exp to level up in mage as a 17 mage.The power gain from level 10 to 11,is not as big as 17 to 18. Added to the fact that there are finite over all levels,means this mage's need to learn swords,not only made making her magical studies harder,it means there are some spells,she can never to learn.

Shadowrun,has problems like this,but not nearly the scale.Take skills,learning how drive doesn't make it harder to learn how to shot a gun,and being a B&E guy,doesn't make you more deadly verus tied up people.

The feats,are unbalanced,and often do "stunts",and nothing more,others are small amounts of skill points,and others are I kill,everyone in the room.

The magic,I mean I thought shadowrun magic was mathatical.(In a bad way),but in d20,you get x spells, of y level.You get them, z times in q time frame.Each spell, is as dry as and boring as Al Gore sleeping.

[ting-bu-dong]

[Siege]

Two things:

First: As Open Source material, you can download 3.5 from WotC for free. It lacks all the neat pictures and stuff, but you have all the necessary content.

Second: I really despise the d20 levels and whatnot, but you can make the game much more lethal by limiting hitpoints to (Str + Con)/2.

It's amazing how much more dangerous goblin archers become when you've only got 12 hit points and some change. :grinbig:

-Siege

[bwdemon]

1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.

2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.

3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.

4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.

5. The background of a game is not in any way hindered or helped by the game mechanics. All of the wonderful background material SR has would still be wonderful background material if the game system changed.

6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.

7. D20 systems allow characters to gain experience outside of combat. Again, please remember this in the future.

8. Stat + Skill systems are better than Skill-Only systems. Why? A character in SR with a 20 Quickness is better off never learning how to fire a pistol than he would be if he took the time to learn the basics. Even a character with a 3 Quickness is better off avoiding Pistols skill until he can get it at 2+ points.

9. SR's dice pool system is a horrible, horrible, mechanic that does not adequately reflect the attributes that apply to the skills in use. Going to Stat + Skill cures the ills inherent in the dice pool system. Before anyone whines about being able to fight defensively or offensively, there are feat and combat options that allow you to do the same under d20, even to varying degrees.

10. SR does not handle ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting well. D20 does just fine with both. SR does not handle automatic fire well. D20 does just fine with it.

11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.

12. SR's system is very complex and not very representative. There are people that have been playing SR for years that still don't interpret the rules correctly and there are plenty of vague issues out there that have never been solved officially (just look around this board). This complexity doesn't exactly draw new players in by droves. Anytime you're dealing with small dice pools (under 10-15) in a successes-based system, problems result from botches and a very restrictive cap on how well a person can possibly do on any given roll. When the dice are 6-sided, these problems magnify due to the limited number of possibilities. Critical failures are less common in d20 (need a natural 1 and a failed save). Using the d20 mechanic listed in #3 above, even a chump thug can kill a character with a couple good rolls. You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question.

I'd be very interested in a d20 version of SR. In fact, I'd probably steal the resulting SR spellcasting mechanic for use in D&D games (I never liked the spell memorizing thing). I think it'd be a great move for the game.

[mfb]

playing games, your arguments would be more convincing if you used actual evidence (they'd also be more convincing if you used the spacebar more often, and maybe the spellchecker). you say "feats are unbalancing", but never explain--why are they unbalancing? what do they unbalance?

as for magic--maybe you could offer an alternative? you say shadowrun is "mathatical" which i assume would be bad if it were a real word, but D&D magic is worse because it has q's and z's and x's. so, how should magic work?

bw, i have to disagree with some of your statements. a point of Str, in d20, is worth more than a point of any other stat in most cases. most of the rolls that any character makes will be for attack and damage, which Str affects. i also disagree about autofire--i don't think either system handles it accurately.

your #12 argument suffers from insanity. even with the vitality points mechanic, a chump thug is much less likely to kill someone in d20 than they are in SR. SR is much more random, and randomness--as the guys at WotC are fond of reminding us--increases the odds for the underdog.

[KarmaInferno]

[mfb]

it's different because a 40 kp runner would be, in d20 terms, epic. the now, if you're talking the diff between a 40 karma runner and a staring-level char...

[KarmaInferno]

Sorry, meant 40 karma. Fingers were typing faster than brain was operating.

But still, my point is the same. Any experienced character in nearly any game can expect to thrash a newly created one. It's the nature of character development.

[mfb]

you've got a point, but 40 karma isn't really enough of a difference to matter. and, as a counterpoint, i've seen a 9th-level rogue take on and beat a 13th-level fighter, on ground that favored the fighter (flat, open).

[CanvasBack]

I used to love AD&D 2nd ed. But then, that game was "DIABLO"-ized in 3.0 and made so even more in 3.5...

I like SR3 the way it is and I will stop playing it if they do something assinine like convert it to the d20 system. Just my 2 yen....

[mfb]

bah, 2nd ed sucked. you want to talk about a game that straightjacketed you in its class system! and the saving throws--what were those? those made no sense. and don't get me started on THAC0!

[LoseAsDirected]

Likewise. I don't dislike the d20 system. I enjoy it for its simplicity.. But I only play it when I want heroic type of games..

I like more lethal systems for my real games.

[mfb]

i sorta agree, in that the d20 system needs modification to be lethal the way SR is. but it can be modified to be as lethal/realistic, or moreso, than SR--i'm a big fan of Spycraft's rules, myself.

[Siege]

Actually, there is a difference:

A 20th level mage is inherently tougher than a 1st level fighter in terms of hit points and saving throws.

A 100 point karma experienced character is still more or less human in the same vein as a newbie character.

The spells/cyberware/magic items become relatively immaterial for purposes of power escalation.

If we maintain this line of thought, the 20th level character can still laugh at a dagger or a goblin's arrow while the first level character should be rightly afraid of impending doom.

Oh gawd, I've jumped into the "why I despise the d20 system" rant. :grinbig:

-Siege

[mfb]

yes, the base d20 system is heroic fantasy. got that. however, like i said, there are numerous alternate rulesets and campaign settings that are as lethal or more lethal than SR. Spycraft, to reuse my example--and Spycraft has better armor rules, too.