D20 Shadowrun, to D20 or not to D20? Options

[Playing Games]

Spells, you get x spells of y level.You get those spells,and nothing else.You can't say,cast bunch of small spells,or a few large spells.Shadowrun,you cast spells based on how much your willing to put into it.IE you can cast, force one spells,all day,but only a few high force spells.

Let's look at feats.Some of them,act as small amounts of extra skills.Some act as giving you armies(leadership).Some act as giving you whole new skills(wilderness lore).Some give you +1 to hit,or damage with one weapon(weapon focus...).Some give extra attacks.(cleave)

1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.

2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.

3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.

4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.

But,these problem points are almost always the default.Your anwsers to these sore spots,are minorities.

6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.

Yes,and at the same time you have even less reason to make rounded characters.As in D20, each skill point,both cost the same,and improves your chances at the same rate.5%.

Now,you want wide number ranges,with a little work you can change shadowrun into a D10 system.You only need to fix karma,and change a few numbers,most of witch can be done by times all numbers by 1.6 and rounding down.

11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.

Counter point,neither is in d20.Let's take d20 stats,the thing you have such love for.Some of them are progressive,others aren't.Your con gives you points to skills,and also gives you hit points per-level.Not all the sats have the same amount of skills,and I highly doubt you prove me that the skill spread is remotely balanced.

[Siege]

[mfb]

you still haven't answered the question of how feats are unbalancing. what do they do that unbalances the game?

actually, you're mistaken about the default rules--most games with a 'modern' setting use vitality points and other alternate rules to make the system more lethal.

why do you have less reason to make rounded characters? is the fact that each point changes your percent chance by 5% change the fact that if you dump all your points into Climb and Jump, you're going to be a social martian?

what's "unbalanced" about the skill spread? you keep using that word, and i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.

and for god's sake, put some freakin' spaces after your punctuation. that's what spaces are for.

[CanvasBack]

For me, I don't like or dislike the class system. It has its merits, chiefly in the fact that a GM should be able to guage the level of challenge for his players much more easily. In SR, I do think that any gutter-punk can take out a corporate goon, given the right circumstances and in that way, it's a lot different in terms of setting up runs/adventures.

BTW, if you crack open some 1st ed AD&D books, and find the "to hit" tables you'll realize why Thac0 was a pretty impressive step forward in terms of playability. Unfortunately, some people can only add and not subtract. Looking back on it, it did kind of thin the herd so to speak... oh well. :twirl:

P.S. For a brief period I did run a Mighty Fortress campaign. If anybody has the green books they'll know what I'm talking about. The rules for excessive damage due to firearms I thought were quite workable and at times not very survivable at all, which I do think is a stark contrast to the direction d20 modern or future oriented campaigns went, from what I can tell.

[Ancient History]

I will say this...under the OGL, Mutants and MAsterminds is probably the best game out there.

It's level based, but incremental instead of XP-based (kinda like karma). There are no classes. Character creation is incredibly flexible. Probably the best super-hero system ever, and easily adaptable to nearly any other setting.

[Connor]

Nevermind... AH got it out while I was typing and being slow about it.

[leemur]

[Lilt]

IMHO D20 SR is a bad idea as it encourages combat-oriented games. The mechanics I dislike the most are the level/experience system, the base attack bonus (and how goes up with your level) and hit-points (and how they go up with your level). The class system also encourages stereotypical characters and penalises flexibility.

My reasons?
XP/levels: Firstly we have the fact that awarding XP for kills (as almost every single D20 game I have seen does) encourages killing. Secondly we have the fact that characters instantly become more powerful, and cannot be truly good at something without being a high level.
Fixes: Award XP for whole runs (awarding 0XP for individual kills) and allow characters to spend XP independently

Level-based Base attack bonus: For some reason it is impossible to become better at anything without becoming better at hitting stuff with the soggy end of your opponent's own limbs. My character has certainly not practiced this, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Have a skill based combat system that you can put up if you want to

HP: Again my character has not been practicing dodging/taking bullets during the soggy-end-of-limb-combat training he has not had, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Use a different damage system

Classes: The class system gives characters set bonuses and abilities, which is OK to some extent as you can multi-class to get the abilities that you want, but there are both basic (IE: not being able to cast the next level of spells, having 1 less caster level) and XP penalties applied to multi-classing. Very often, taking a class will give you abilities that you don't want, especially if the ability you want is not a 1st level one.
Fixes: Don't use a class-based system

Now I'm not saying that the SR system is perfect but why should we switch to a different system which is so fundamentally flawed?

@mfb: SPYCRAFT: Deadly? ROTFL! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I'm sorry, but in the single spycraft campaign I saw played (it was being run next to the game I was playing in): people held iron-man competitions to see who could Spacewalk without space-suits for the longest. This was following the competitions where they saw who could leap off a skyscraper the most times and survive, and how instead of buying parachutes the group simply lept from planes as then they couldn't be shot at as they cam in to land or as they escaped the entangled parachute. They also discovered that the most deadly weapon was the Fire-Extinguisher+Piton combo: Hit someone with a fire extinguisher and they become helpless so you can follow-up with a climbing piton for a coup-de-gras.

[Playing Games]

[mfb]

*sigh* you gain XP for defeating foes. if the bad guys run away because you Intimidated them to hell and back, you get the XP. if you snuck around them, you get the XP. if you waded in and slaughtered them, you get the XP. if you paid them 200gp to sod off, you get the XP.

in most games--SR, D&D--involve combat to a heavy degree. how realistic is it for a shaman to spend gobs of karma on initiation, spells, ally spirits, etc., and never get better at combat?

and the single Spycraft game you saw played isn't exactly iron-clad evidence.

playing games, you're not taking into account the fact that different classes emphasize different attributes. yeah, Str is good--but if i'm a rogue, i'd rather have Dex. if i'm a Paladin, Cha is pretty important because it modifies nearly everything i do. if i'm a wizard, who cares about Str? it's all about the Int.

what you're talking about is variety. variety is a good thing.

[Playing Games]

MFB, I was talking about D20.Not D&D.You can't eat your cake,and have it too.

If you defend D20,as not being D&D.You shouldn't use D&D to defend D20.

[John Campbell]

[mfb]

sure i can, playing games. see, all the other d20 games have character types (whether class-based or not) that emphasize different ability scores, too.

[Playing Games]

[mfb]

character types--like "i'm a fast guy who uses two swords," "i'm a friendly spellcaster", "i'm a detective"--are integral to gaming, period. if you don't have a character concept, i'm not sure what you're doing at the table.

and the fact that different characters emphasize different stats is my entire point--for character A, Cha might not be important; for character B, it might be everything.

[Playing Games]

But you pointed out a paladin Cha's saving grace.

And wile character types are in everygame, on some level not all are classes.Not every breaking and entering guy is good at back stabbing,every duel sword welder is good in the woods and is racist.

You confuse classes,for character types.So,when you used character type,in the context of character class,I did as well.

In shadowrun what does it take to be a decker?basically,some skills and hardware, this take karma,money and time.This doesn't inharitly make it harder for you to learn to be a face.Yes you will behind in points compared to pure faces or pure deckers,but it still costs the same amount of karma to raise computer skill,for the face/decker as it does for the decker.In the class system of D20, it would cost the face/decker more exp for each level of decker,than the decker.admittedly some classes get the same power,and ticker tape each level,others don't. In my first case it is rather clear(the fighter/mage).The mage being a back loaded class,heavily dependant on class levels.This fighter mage is getting less mojo for his exp than a pure mage.

Oh,and what about shadowrun mages and cyberware.True,becoming a cyber shaman does mean you will pay more karma raise your magic up to the same level as the pure shaman.But there isn't a finite amount of karma you can gain,there is a finite amount of levels, so threoreticly you can gain as much magic,if not more magic with your cyber shaman,over the pure one.In D20, you get a finite amount levels.So basically you would have to make characters in shadowrun have a limit to how much karma they can get,too get the real same effects.

[Adarael]

[The Synthcat]

Maybe I'm just wrong but... doesn't the standard rule about botches stipulates that to actually botch you need to have 1s for half or more of the total of dices you roll ( no matter is you've got successes with the other dices ) ? That means that if you've got a skill at 1, 2 or 3, you botch really often. My mage character has conjuring(3) and I will NOT try to conjure anything stronger than force 3 ( or 4 if I really have too, feel lucky, and have some trained back-up with me ! ) for that reason. Botches in that shadowrun system happen fairly often and if they don't in your games, well, either you're just really lucky, the characters have no skill below 4 or you don't apply the rules the same way I do ( or I'm just very unlucky, a possibility I will not discard ) !

Just a question, if I may ask, I've playied Dnd 3rd ed ( but not 3.5 ) and one of the things ( albeit a minor one ) that bugged me out was that a character whose HPs were dangerously low can use skills, fight and use magic with the same efficiency as if he was not hurt. Again, maybe it's just me, but that isn't realistic at all. If I'm close to unconsciousness because of a wound or because of a sickness, I probably won't be able to do what I can do when I'm in perfect shape. Is the flaw ( IMHO it is clearly one ! ) still unresolved in the D20 version of shadowrun ?

I never liked class-based system, mostly because I've got a fondness for making rather unusual characters and I find class-based system to rigid ( and, again, in my humble opinion, primitive is a way ). By "primitive" I mean that they're a very good way to show someone what role-playing games are, and to help him flesh out a character and guide him with the character's progression. I've got some year of experience playing RPGs and I feel that I don't need a game system to tell me which skill my character needs...

I don't like the idea of spells per day. Even in Dnd, I hated it. Spell memorization is a chore best avoided. ( yes, of course I did select today that one particular spell I don't take usually ! If I wrote that down somewhere... ? Well, I thought I told you ! If you don't remember that's not *my* fault, is it ?) But that is just a personnal opinion not based on other facts than personal experience :cool:

Another thing I've noticed is that the inherent complexity of the shadowrun system makes it harder to munchkin it out ( unless, of course, the player is quite dedicated ). It's not that hard to pick good cybernetic for a sammie, but it took me quite a while to understand just how all the drone-related, decking-related, otaku abilities, ECM and ECCM rules work. I don't think that I master them well enough to do any better than a 'good' character... so forget about munchkin ! and I definitely do fall into the 'dedicated player' category. However, it wasn't long before I figured out how to make a pretty damn strong character for DnD... is it just me ?

[mfb]

what? playing games, you're skipping around. yes, i used the paladin as an example--but that's just one example. whether you're playing with the D&D core classes or Spycraft's modern classes or the d20 Modern stat-based classes or Call of Cthulu's classless system, you can build characters who emphasize some stats over others. you're also mistaken about the limits--you can multiclass as much as you want, in D&D. nor are there a finite number of levels you can gain--if you want to get into games of level 20+, there are rules to support it. there aren't many games that go that high--but there aren't many games in SR that go above 500 karma, either.

i don't feel 'limited' by d20's class-based system at all. matter of fact, i'd challenge anybody here to come up with a concept i can't fulfill, in d20.

and the idea that "SR is hard to munchkin out" stands on its own absurdity, so i'm not going to bother disproving it.

[John Campbell]

[toturi]

I took 2 days to figure out how to make a good powergame D20 charactor. But I took only 2 hours to do it right in Shadowrun.

[Lilt]

[Xirces]

[mfb]

an example? okay. Our Hero has 13 Con, ergo 13 wound points. he's walking down the street, and some punk decides to shoot him with his .44 revolver and take his wallet. Our Hero rolls to listen, and it comes up a 1; the GM spens an action point, making that a critical failure. the GM then rolls for the punk to shoot, and gets a 19--he's rolling hot tonight. he spends another action point, making it a critical hit. the 2d6+2 damage the punk rolls are subtracted directly from Our Hero's wound points, potentially bringing Our Hero from full health to -2 vp and dying in one shot.

characters suddenly becoming more powerful through level advancement is no stranger than characters suddenly gaining extra dice to shoot their pistol. it's a game mechanic. the division between 'powerups' is a bit sharper in d20, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in SR.

SR is much more logical and open? really? then why is it that someone who knows how to throw baseballs (throwing weapons 3) can suddenly gauge the point at which he should release a throwing knife, to hit a given target point-first? why is it that rounds designed to pierce hardened armor (AV ammo) are on an equal footing with armor-piercing rounds when it comes to personal armor? why is it that different types of bone lacing have different essence costs, when the procedure for implanting each type should logically be the same? why can't smartlinks work with electronic scopes? why does a person do worse by actually learning a point of skill, than by defaulting to a high stat?

and if SR is malleable, d20 is infinitely moreso. do i need to start naming the countless d20 rules variants to be found out there?

[Prototype]

Everyone here loves banging on about how lethal SR is and how gutterpunks can scare even the most battle hardened shadowrunners, etc.

My question is... how?

Even a starting character in SR has little or no reason to fear street punks unless they have some decidedly non-street punk weapons!

What ork street sammie doesn't start the game with body 10+ (11 or 15 depending on whether you like dermal or orthoskin!) and at least 8 points of ballistic armour? This guy loves getting shot at by pistols... he positively lives for it! BLAM! BLAM! 'Keep 'em coming boys!' he shouts... BLAM! BLAM! 'Damn that feels nice... like raindrops... pitter patter!'

Even the mage is probably gonna have combat pool 7 or 8, Body of at least 3 and a minimum 5 points of armour... and that's if he's poorly designed! Plus, the moment the street punk shoots him he soaks it down and cracks out a Force 6 Manabolt with Sorcery 6, a bunch of spell pool and the punk is junk!

Characters in SR are ridiculously tough. They're hard as nails and can kick ass like nobody else. A starting street sam could probably quite easily go toe to toe with as many 'average' punks as you like without any problems.

Somebody who likes maths can solve this equation for me...

First some definitions...

Gang Punk: All stats at 4, Karma Pool 1, Brawling 4, Edged Weapons 4, Pistols 4, Gear: Ares Predator, Knife, Synthleather Jacket (0/2)

Ork Street Sam: B15, Q9, S12, CIW 4, Initiative 3d6+12 (very low!), Karma Pool 1, Ambidexterity 8, Pistols 6, Martial Art that allows Whirling probably with Edged Weapons ™ 6, Edged Weapons 6, SMG 6, Smartlink, Enhanced Articulation, Couple of Reflex Recorders, etc. Gear: Ares Predator III x2, Ingram Smartguns (Gas Vent IV, Personalised Grip, Underbarrel Weight, Yawn!) x2, Katana (Dikoted, of course!), Cougar Fineblade Knife (Dikoted), Secure Jacket + Form Fitting III (With cyber gives armour 8/6)

Now, solve for X...

X (Gang Punks) = Dead (Ork Street Sam)

Any takers? Can they kill him? No, never, they haven't a hope in hell. Unless the GM cracks out some 'There are 50 gadzillion of them, of course they win' ruling or some 'There's so many he slips a gun in your mouth, your dead' BS ™ then he's wading through them like dogshit.

He's pretty much a starting character, okay, you can whine about availability at chargen of one or two items, and you'll probably say he's munchie or something. But he's totally valid and can still be a well rounded character... totally achievable within a few sessions play and he would whip gang punks silly all day long.

Sorry, rant over! We return you to your regularly scheduled service!