 D20 Shadowrun, to D20 or not to D20? |
  |
 Jan 17 2004, 03:18 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Proto: For an honest comparison, take e.g. a level 5 d20 cyberpunk character and face it off against a few gangers.
In most d20 games I know of, starting characters really are just starting out. A D&D level 1 fighter might never have fought in real combat. A D&D level 1 mage is likely to be straight out of a magic college. A (canon) beginning SR character has been in the business for a long time. To get a feeling for which is more "lethal", the SR d6 system or the d20 system, you'd need to compare two characters of similar amounts of experience (not in terms of game mechanics, but in actual time and effort in the business). But I'm not going to argue for or against in this issue. I use SR d6 because I like the principle. I can see how others might like d20 more. Why people are so passionate about this, I'll never understand. Might as well argue which is better: Bread or porridge. Soups or solid foods. |
 |
 
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 03:27 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
I've stayed out of this discussion, but now I can't anymore.
Prototype, that sammie is ridiculus. A starting initiative of 12+3D6 isn't low. That's better than the sammie in the BBB. I've been playing SR for quite some time and I've never seen a character with stats as high as those, specially not a starting character. If you play on that level, then of course those gangers aren't gonna hurt him, but if you have a lower powerlevel then that, then those same gangers are gonna be a problem. Here are some stats for the meanest character I've GM:ed the last couple of years: Body 10 (11) Quickness 7 (9) Strength 9 (11) Charisma 5 Intelligence 4 (5) Willpower 6 Reaction 7 (11) Initiative 1D6 (3D6) Combat Pool: 10 SKILLS Pistols 6 SMG 6 Assault Rifles 5 Karate 7 And this is after more than 200 karma. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 03:54 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
well i did have a nice long post, but somehow it all got deleted before i posted it, time for slight shorthand :( i like em both for different reasons, gm's getting new rules for buying advancement with xp instead of level based for d&d. hopefully will be better
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 04:30 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Hmm? 2d6+2 has a mean of 9. How exactly does 13 - 9 = -2?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:13 PM
Post
#55
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Do you mean someone who knows how to damage people with baseballs (throwing weapons/baseballs 1/3), or someone who knows how to throw knives, shuriken, spikes, grenades, and baseballs equally well (throwing weapons 3)? :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:20 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
L.D. that sammie I posted is not ridiculous in the slightest. If you want ridiculous I could post any number of characters that would no doubt garner howls of derision from the Dumpshock natives.
What I struggle to believe is that thing you posted... I assume he is an ork? If not those are some screwy numbers you have in there! So, working with that assumption he's got no business calling himself a sammie! How did he earn his 200 karma... flipping burgers? Because if he'd been Shadowrunning for 200 karma he could probably afford some half decent cyber and bio! Chargen treat stats are easy... Body 6, +3 for being an Ork, +1 for Suprathyroid, +2 Titanium Bone Lacing and +4 from Dermal Sheath 3 = 16. Even a human can have Body 13 quite easily by doing that... and let's face it, any sammie who intends to get into a fight would be foolish for not going down that road at least some of the way. As for initiative, okay, maybe my crack about very low was slightly tongue in cheek... but it's an easily attainable initiative. At character generation you can easily have a Quickness and Intelligence of 9 (assuming your GM allows bioware) for Reaction 9 + Suprathyroid + Enhanced Artic + Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancers = 16-21 +3d6. Though I suppose some people favour the Boosted and Synaptic Accel. option, but that's less legal for chargen. Anyway, we all know what you can do, and it's not like these characters have to be like Body guy or Reaction guy... you can give them rounded skillsets and make them into excellent characters and not just an exercise in rules buggery. The bottom line is, I never saw a street sam that should fear a few gang punks. On a related note... can we have fun converting SR characters to D&D... can we, please, huh? huh? Take my ork from a few posts ago... In D&D he pretty much has Str 40, Dex 30, Con 50 and CIW 13... he get's approximately 10 attacks a round and is an absolute master of two-weapon fighting, has a bunch of skills at totally amazing levels (so he must be a pretty decent level) and has weapons and armour that are off the charts. What a guy! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:25 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Well, for one, what you posted is an SR2 character. Ambidex is now an Edge, not a skill.
And where do you get Int 9 from? In SR2, sure. Starting in SR3? No. The highest (If your GM allows Cultured Bio) would be an 8. Encephalon no longer adds itself straight to Int. And that ain't a Street Sammie, that's a gunbunny. The Street Sammie wouldn't have even been noticed by the Street Punk. Street Samurai are not all about killing and maiming, despite popular opinion. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:44 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
No. It is an SR3 character. I think I know the difference.
Ambidexterity is an edge. It's an edge that comes in 2, 4, 6 and 8 point versions. When posting on a board such as this it helps to define which the character has. Speaking of edges, Exceptional Attribute (Intelligence) is also one... taking this will allow you to have Intelligence 7 with a Cerebral Booster for 9. Why is he a gunbunny? What does that even mean? He can have Stealth 6 which with his Enhanced Articulation makes him nice and sneaky, give him Negotiation 6, Electronics 6 and here we have the makings of a character even! Oh, and with his high intelligence he probably spots your Sammie then uses his amazing speed to take him out before you even get around to rolling your 2d6+5 initiative. Why make crap characters when you can have good ones? Does it make you feel proud to go in and say 'Look Momee! I made a shadowrunner who only uses hold-out pistols!' or would your mates riot if they found out you'd bought a trauma damper? Just being tough, strong and fast doesn't make a character a killing machine. It just means he's better at killing when he needs to. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:54 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
It has to be said that almost every archetype can kill about as many street-punks as they have bullets... Mages invis themselves and rain-down spells. Riggers open-up with drones mounting automatic weapons and 5 points of vehicle armour... I don't see how a street sam, fully prepared and in full combat gear, being able to munch through weak goons indefinately is too powerful. It still takes only one of them, however, to kill him if he dosen't know they're there (called shot to ignore armor + some aiming).
This post has been edited by Lilt: Jan 17 2004, 06:03 PM |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 05:59 PM
Post
#60
|
|||||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
And this matters how? SR could modify it all it wants so long as it sticks to OGL minimums.
LOL! Again, d20 is more lethal than SR. Only once have I ever had a character die in SR and I've had plenty of characters die in d20 at all levels. I've never even been threatened with death on any character over 50 karma. Use vitality/wound points and d20 becomes far more lethal at all levels of the game.
Feats do have different "costs", in a way. Many feats have pre-requisites that prohibit players from simply acquiring the best feats immediately. These prerequisites can be level, class, attribute, skill, combat ability, and/or prior feats. Because you have to fulfill the prerequisite, you cannot just grab the latest and greatest at chargen and many require 10+ levels before you can even consider them.
PCs are not average humans. I am a huge fan of low-power campaigns with restricted access to equipment and dice caps. Even in these games, the punk wouldn't come close to hurting any of the runners I've gamed for and with. I'd love to hear how many PCs are out there with 2 Body getting surprised by and taking 6 boxes from a low-end street punk with a heavy pistol.
and
My point there is that a lot of people do not believe that d20 can do the things I mentioned. I find myself repeating them all too often and I've seen people from the other thread continue to make the errors even after they've been corrected. My hope is that repetition will eventually force them to learn. The alternate mechanics are not minorities, as others have mentioned, and there is no reason to make SR d20 conform directly to D&D d20 when other mechanics would work better and are already available.
If a d10 system is better than a d6 system, a d20 system is better still. The bigger issue is that, in SR, the difference between a 2 and a 3 stat or skill is HUGE. As for skills, absolutely nothing limits SR skill advancement. In SR, you can have a 6 (or a 5/7) in any skills you have the points to purchase at chargen. That's before any 'ware, magic enhancements, or die pools (we all know of the ambidextrious physads). After that, you're limited only by your karma gains. In d20, you are always limited to (level + 3) for maximum ranks in the skill. To this, you add any modifiers from magic, attributes, 'ware, and other factors. Thanks to the mechanics of the d20 system, the modifers still don't upset the game balance at any given level. Basically, d20 balances gameplay by default among all characters at the same level.
It depends on the skills that are used in the d20 system in question. There are many skills available for all attributes, giving any character a wide variety to choose from. Characters may perform most skills adequately without having any ranks in them at all, they just perform more consistently and can accomplish greater feats if they take ranks in the skills. Skill advancement is limited by level. Attribute advancement is limited by race. Feats are not gained so rapidly as to allow for imbalance. Attribute increases are even more limited. The skill spread is not perfectly balanced, but when combined with combat use and saving throw modifiers, the skills and attributes balance out reasonably well. They certainly balance better than SR3, which is among the worst offenders and doesn't even allow attributes to work on their linked skills except for purposes of skill advancement. The SR d6 system simply uses numbers and probabilities that are too small to achieve desired and remotely realistic results. A change of a single point to a TN incurs a 16.7% change in probability. That is, so long as the TN doesn't go from 6 to 7 (or vice versa), which is a 0% change. Gotta love that. Things get really bad when you get over 7. The chance of succeeding changes drastically with even the most minor changes in TN, let alone a change of 2+ points. This applies to skill use and combat. Armor reduces damage to you, based on how tough you are under it. A character with 6 Body, wearing an armored vest is less likely to take damage from an attack than a character with 1 Body wearing heavy armor. In the d20 system, the difficulty of completing a task can be raised or lowered 5% incrementally for any given character in any given situation. For skill rolls, however much you make the roll by determines how well you did and, if applicable, how much time it took you. For combat, you first need to hit, and then your damage is rolled based on your method of attack. If you do very well (critical) then you may do more damage. Damage is randomized for each weapon, allowing for a greater range of effects than in SR. Depending on which system you use, armor may lower than chance of your being hit or it may reduce damage to you. I highly prefer the latter mechanic, but both can be justified and they'll work equally well regardless of the toughness of the character wearing it. Now, onto the balance of feats. Cleave may give a single extra attack. However, it has two pre-requisites: 13 STR & prior feat (power attack). If you kill an opponent and there is another opponent adjacent to you, you may get a single attack on that adjacent opponent. Under no other circumstances may you do so and you are limited to one exercise of the feat each round. Great cleave allows for additional attacks on multiple adjacent opponents, but further requires that you have a base attack bonus of 4+ and that you have both power attack and cleave as prior feats. You still only get additional attacks so long as opponents are adjacent and killed by you in that round. The second that one survives an attack or you miss or you cannot reach them, your great cleave bonus ends. Now, is any character likely to kill anything greater than a CR1-2 mook in a single swing? No. Further, all of these feats require that you be in melee combat, which will spoil the shots of your party members against anyone adjacent to you (unless they've taken the appropriate feat). They do balance, thanks to prerequisites and game effects. Is taking a skill focus comparable to taking a feat like cleave? In a combat sense, no. In a sense where your character needs to use that skill, yes. If your game is about anything other than combat, which any game can be just as easily as any other, then it the skill focus will be equally useful. As for spells, nothing would force SR d20 to accept the same spell mechanic as D&D. However, I will say that my D&D spellcasters know far more spells than my SR spellcasters. They just can't cast as many (usually). Again, the limits of the d6 system regarding TNs severely impact the use of drain as a game mechanic. I really like drain as a mechanic. So make it a check based on spell level, caster level, and spellcasting stat. Fail the check, take spell level in d6 damage. Critically fail the check and take the damage in wound points. Use part of the sorcerer-style spell system (no memorization) combined with this simple drain mechanic and you're good to go. This took me all of maybe a minute to come up with, so I'd guess that a decent game designer could flesh it out fully in a day or two at most. I'll let this go for now and get back to reading the rest of the thread... :) |
||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:01 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Prototype: And now create the most bad-ass level 5 FighterHunterKillerMasterSlayer (or whatever such classes are called in the modern d20s), and see how many level 1 average gangers he can beat with the d20 rules.
Since you apparently ignored me the first time around, I'll say it again: Starting characters in SR are nothing like starting characters in most d20 games. If your problem is that you think SR starting characters are too powerful, just use Point Buy with less points, or BeCKS with a reasonably low Karma limit. If your problem is that people think SR is lethal while you routinely min/max yourself starting characters that can kick any GDs ass... then you're just being silly. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:06 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
You only get 100% of the XP value of an opponent if you defeat them in combat. Any other means of 'surviving an encounter' nets you only half the XP. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:08 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Wait... SR isn't lethal?! Who the frag is your GM, and tell him to rethink things.
Slums, Bad Cops, Bad Sec Boys, Gangs, Yaks, Triads, Mafia, Rings... How are they not lethal? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:08 PM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
Hmmm, okay, let's assume they can call a shot and ignore armour, base TN is 4 (short range, generous, but still), target is stationary, called shot and then aiming twice... still TN5. Mr. Punk rolls his 8 dice (4 skill + 4 pool) and gets 3 successes (slightly above average, but hey) he even uses his one point of karma for a reroll and gets that up to 4 successes. Hmmm, looks bad for Mr. Sammy eh?
Now, Mr. Sammy doesn't get combat pool because he's surprised... but he does get his natural armour so we're resisting 8M +4 successes, eh? I take my 15 Body dice and score on average 2 successes... could go for a reroll and I'm virtually assured the 1 more success I need to take a Moderate, chances are I'll get two. My platelet factory and trauma damper aren't surprised and they change that nasty shot to a box on each condition monitor. I'm really worried at this point... I forgot to take symbiotes, but with my Quick Healer edge (who doesn't have it!) I'll probably be feeling fine in oh, about 3 hours. Ouch! That hurt! At this point we roll initiative, I make a couple of perception tests and then annihilate Mr. Gang Punk and his pals till the cows come home. Sure, they can crack out the called shots and a few of them might get lucky... but with movement, cover, getting in fights, etc. I'm probably going to be able to dodge most of them and soak the rest. Plus, once he's hit me once I'll put the hood on my Form Fitting on... where's he calling shots to now? I've got 5 points of Ballistic all-over baby! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:08 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
In answer to the idea of this thread...
well, I don't think I need to register my feelings. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:12 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Oh, I forgot this:
Sure, he can take a hit. And, sure, you can throw him more skills... But what are his social interactions going to be with bullet holes in his clothes and cyber sticking out? Just because you can twink an SR character doesn't mean you have to. Hell, I've made Trolls that go against the norm of "Me Hulk me smash!" Troll Combat Mages, for one. I'm NPCing a Troll Conjuring Adept. I've even had Troll B&E experts. Same with Orks. I've also had Elven gunbunnies. I know that all is way off topic, but, honestly Prototype, you're taking something that was made just to take bullets, which, in essnece, is a gunbunny. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:14 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Umm. How lethal SR is depends on how you play it. If you really do just send below-average gangers against the players then it won't be deadly at-all. All it takes is a bit of APDS, however, and anyone wielding a heavy pistol becomes a threat. Remember: Corps don't need to pay street index or roll the availability number. If heavy armour is so common that APDS is *needed* to stop shadowrunners then for god's sakes give it to the dammn guards. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:23 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 12-August 03 From: Sulphur, Louisiana Member No.: 5,418 |
I have, to this date, had 2 characters die in any d20 game. I have only lost 1 character of my own in any d20 game.
I have, to this date, had over 30 characters die in my Shadowrun games. I have lost about 4 of my own characters. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:25 PM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Another fun fact in the games I've played: One player lost three characters in one night. Yup. Three.
I guess that means SR isn't lethal, huh? :please: |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:35 PM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
Now, to address some other points...
Tanka - I'm the GM... and I make sure things are fairly dangerous in my games, but you just can't do lethality in the 'anyone with a gun is a threat' sense. The skills system and everything else in the game is against it. In SR terms, if I pick up a .44 Magnum, walk up to someone and pull the trigger I'd probably struggle to do them a Moderate wound (Q4 against TN6 minimum!) - is that in any way realistic! No, obviously not. Now if the PC's go trolling round the Barrens I usually have most gang punks run the other way - cause they sure as hell ain't hurting them. The PC's are all about the 200 karma mark and pretty well designed. Sure, they have trouble with corp strike teams, ghosts, banded, anyone with APDS, etc. but against run of the mill gangers they have little or no fear. Additionally, we've had characters that go against the grain. I'm sure we all have. But the guys I'm talking about don't have to be made of metal. Most of their stuff isn't picked up on a routine inspection... reflex triggers, etc. Okay, dermal sheath and the like maybe, but even that's not child's play to spot. You can be a 'gun bunny' as you say and a character, even a character who's good at non-fighting things. Austere - I didn't ignore you. My point was less about D20 vs. SR and more about SR's legendary 'lethality' - off topic I know, but that's why I didn't justify myself to you. My analysis of starting SR characters was just to dispute the 'lethality' claims. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the whole D&D starting characters are pish thing! Although I reckon a level 1 fighter has probably been in a few scraps! I don't think the starting characters are too powerful in SR, I like them the way they are. I'm just saying that this rumoured lethality is total nonsense. In SR I could, as the rules are written, leap from a 4 storey building and probably take a moderate wound... or jump in front of a car travelling at 30mph with little appreciable damage! Guns are apparently only dangerous in the hands of those who know how to use them and if two untrained humans get in a fistfight they apparently stand around bitch slapping each other all day! LoseAsDirected - Your SR games sound fairly dangerous... but with magic, overflow, trauma patches and decent biotech SR characters lives should only really be endangered through extreme stupidity! They can take poundings all day long and keep coming back for more! Lilt - I don't send below par gangers up against my runners. In fact, 99% of the time I find myself having to upgrade the bad guys in any of the published modules. Take the arcology for example, the Banded are a joke compared to your average PC... but they should be a fearsome foe! Here's my take on a level 3 Banded... B11, Q10, S10, C3, I6, W6, 4d6+17 Initiative, Assault Rifles 4/5, Athletics 4/5, Biotech 4, Edged Weapons 6/7, Electronics 4, Etiquette 2 (Corporate 4), Karate 6/7, Leadership 3, Pistols 5/6, SMG 6/7, Stealth 5/6, Throwing 4/5, Snake Eyes Interface (Full-X, Rating 8), Auto-Injector w/Cutter Nanites x5 (Didn't Deus realise 1 dose won't kill a tough guy?), Reusable Auto-Injector (5 dose capacity), Reusable Auto-Injector (5 dose capacity), Dedicated Chipjack (Deus BTL Program), Invoked Memory Stimulator, Router w/10 Ports, Cyberears, Cybereyes, Orientation System w/Battletac Cyberlink, Reaction Enhancers 3, Smartlink-2, Biomonitor w/Diagnosis Processor, Ceramic Bone Lacing, Reaction Enhancer 5, Boosted Reflexes 3, Dermal Sheath 2, Air/Blood/Ingested Toxin Filter (Rating 4), Platelet Factory, Trauma Damper, Muscle Toner 3, Muscle Augmentation 3, Suprathyroid, Enhanced Articulation, Synaptic Accelerator 1, Cerebral Booster 1, Heavy Security Armour, Form Fitting Shirt, explosive ammunition for SCK Model 100, EX-Explosive ammunition for Browning Max-Power and 2 IPE Defensive Grenades. Now that's more challenging to a PC, a squad of those guys will make the PC's sweat a bit... a squad of as-written level 3 banded would get laughed off the park by most runner teams. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:43 PM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
If by "most runner teams" you mean "your runner teams," then yes. Not every group makes characters for the sole purpose of winning. Some seem to make them to be fun and see how things turn out.
For one, a regular player that I game with plays a total pacifist. If there is supposed to be combat, being the wily Snake Shaman, we are convinced to avoid it, find out why we're told to kill this person, then decide if we want to tell this person or not. Sure, the system is screwed up in that, when I'm untrained I can't do jack-all, but the moment I'm trained I'm insanely good. Every system has its flaws, and SR is not outside of that well-based generalization. However, there are things like house rules that take away the silliness of somebody jumping off a building and walking away from it. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:46 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Prototype: There are no rules that stop you from aiming enough to take that TN down to 4, 3 or even 2. At TN 3 the sammie is on-average toasted, not to mention that if he does survive he will probably be on a +3 to TNs and any remaining gangers now get surprise rolls against the sammie. The sammie may have reaction 12 but with a +3 from wound penalties that 12 reaction runner now loses against the reaction 4 gangers. The gangers proceed to call a few more shots, always to avoiding armour, the ones that beat the sammie doing moderate wounds.
It's not long before the sammie is either dead or on a +5 or +6 to all actions from wound penalties making it incredibly difficult for him to do anything (at which point they bum-rush him, hold him down, and shoot him in the head at point-blank range). IE: Versus 4 or so gangers the sammie would probably die if he was not prepared. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:48 PM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
And we haven't even started talking about corporate hit teams.
ie The whole reason my group has converted to non-lethal weapons. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:49 PM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 75 Joined: 24-August 02 Member No.: 3,168 |
Yeah, and I've got plenty of house rules to crank the lethality of other things up as well... but when people speak about SR they talk about how dangerous it is and how lethal and all this... but as written, it ain't. That's what I'm trying to get folk to admit, as painful a process as it is!
As for characters, when I'm playing a rp game I'm generally not too concerned with 'winning' as you put it. SRners are tough, wily hombres as a general rule and when designing the character there's no point in hamstringing them to increase the 'fun' of the game! As for pacifists... funny this, but we had a pacifist character in a campaign too! What, suddenly I'm Mr. Doom 2063??? All my players run about looking for BFG so they can kill more corpsec goons? Chill out! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 17 2004, 06:51 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
:eek:
Not lethal as written? What the hell does your team fight? This is a world where people paralyzed from the neck down can fly the most incredably damaging vehicles known to man, and will too! EVERYBODY is dangerous in the Sprawl. Hell, they have to be, else they're ghoul food. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 17th July 2026 - 01:02 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.