D20 Shadowrun, to D20 or not to D20? Options

[Tanka]

Maybe that's why all your PCs seem to be overpowered, because you houserule to up the lethality, so it's dealt with by making more powerful PCs. If you want lethal, limit it. They can only get stuff at this rating, or this availability. Suddenly they can't get that high-class armor, or all the wiz 'ware. Even limit the books and release the toys slowly. Now they've gotta pick and choose what they take, and they can't just power a character right at chargen.

If you aren't so apt on winning, then why not make it fun with strange characters? Nothing you have posted has led me to believe that your characters are fun characters that aren't just there to aim at and shoot everything that moves.

[Zeel De Mort]

You can only aim a number of times equal to half your skill, i.e. the ganger with Pistols 4 can only get a maximum of -2 on his TN, if he spends two simple actions aiming. Plus he has, at best, probably a stealth skill of 4, so there's a good chance the CyberKing will spot him, more of a chance if the ganger brought three of his equally clumsy friends with him. (I'll use the word CyberKing in place of Street Sammie or Gunbunny or whatever since people seem to have their own ideas about them. CyberKing will be a generic term that just means any tough guy with lots of cyberware and various skills, many, but certainly not all related to combat).

I've never played D&D at higher levels, but even at low level (say 1-8 or so) it's pretty dangerous. A couple of unlucky criticals hits on you and some classes could get killed straight out, and even a tough guy fighter doesn't like it. Likewise at any level, but particularly at higher ones, if you fail just one save there's a good (or 100%) chance you'll be dead. That's pretty leathal if you ask me. At least in SR you roll several dice, so you're more likely to get an average result and not be at the mercy of a D20. Plus there's karma, pool dice and the like to save your ass.

Don't get me wrong though I like D&D just as much as SR, but I'd say D&D is more leathal.

Also: I don't see how doing well and gearing yourself to winning through in any given situation, or indeed having a powerful character in general, makes the game less fun.

[Tanka]

The setting is what's lethal. Corrupt city officials, starved slummers, corporate extraterritoriality... At least in D&D, the area you're in has laws and (supposedly) they are enforced equally everywhere. Not so with SR. LS won't even pretend to touch the baddest parts of town, but where the people are rich and pay well, they're there in two seconds flat if something goes down (or up, as the case may be).

[Lilt]

What we are saying is that Shadowrun is perfectly lethal at any level. Hell: an offensive IPE grenade would take almost any character out (unless they had platet factories or a trauma dampener, in which case use two).

[edit] Oops. missed that section of the aiming rules. Thx...[/edit]

[Zeel De Mort]

The SR setting can, certainly, be very leathal. But I guess what people are arguing over is whether the rules system is leathal or not.

Also, D&D can be pretty damn nasty too! If you're delving into the deepest darkest dragon lairs, or sneaking about in the underdark, who's going to come and save you when things turn ugly there? :) Ok you don't HAVE to go into any dungeons or fight any dragons, but well, most people do, hence the name I guess. Likewise you don't have to go into those corp facilities ever, but what are you going to do with your life if you don't?

[LoseAsDirected]

I'd like to point out that, in SR, there are no resurrection spells. You do not come back to life after you are dead.

That fact, alone, makes it far more lethal than D&D could ever be.

And my games are no more lethal than any other game I've witnessed.. In fact, if your players are never taxed, then it makes me wonder how good of a GM you really are.

Face it, Shadowrun is about criminals breaking the law.. Their lives should be in danger almost every second of the run.. Even during downtime, they should be paranoid.. And it's your job, as the GM, to ensure that they are.

I don't kill PCs because I think it's my job.. I put them in dangerous, realistic situations because it's my job.. And, quite often, no matter how good a PC is, they just aren't good enough.

In my opinion, no run against a megacorp should EVER go over 100% smoothly.. In fact, they should usually just barely manage to get out with their lives and anonymity intact.

[Prototype]

Lilt - whilst I don't have my books with me I'm fairly certain you can only aim up to half your skill. So, those skill 4 gang punks can't get the TN down as low as you'd suggest.

Also, my Sammie with Reaction 12 and 3d6 initiative up against your punks with 1d6+4 has to be seriously wounded on both condition monitors for you to win initiative and even then you have only a 1 in 1296 chance of beating him!

So overall, prepared or not the Sammie is kicking ass!

As for IPE grenades... hmmm, well, imagine that my Sammie gets tagged by a grenade - lands right on him. He gets an action before it goes off, so he decides not to try and throw it back TN6 with Q9??? Not hard, but still, he runs... with three actions in a turn he moves 9m, hmmm, okay... he walks away from it. So he is 3m away when it goes off. So the damage code is 12S, probably stages up to 12D+4... he has 7 points of impact armour for 5D+4, he rolls 15 Body, slams in 3 combat pool and takes 4 boxes of physical and a box of stun. If he's got more CP left he could easily get that down to the famous box/box config.

Zeel de Mort - with a name like that you should know about power!

Tanka - Nah, it's not that at all. The upped lethality applies to things like collisions, falling, etc. and that's in response to shadowrun characters... and also in response to looking at what would happen to average denizens of the SR world in those situations. Availability is limited, gear is hard to acquire... you don't need APDS and heavy military armour to be a tough guy! As for my characters not being 'fun' I haven't posted anything about them... so it'd be pretty hard for you to make any judgements.

Moosegod - There are things in SR that are lethal... nobody likes a Panther Cannon for instance (although, it isn't instant death...) but I'm saying that it isn't the 'oh my god he's got a Fichetti executive action I'm in a world of trouble' type of lethality that people would have you believe.

[L.D]

@Prototype.

Yeah he's an ork. I find you saying that he can't be a sammie very amusing. :)

He's the character I've had the most difficulty with, becuase he's a much better fighter than the rest of the group and if I really want to make it leathal for him, then the rest of the group is in some seriuos shit.

I was gonna go on about this, but you know, you play at a completly different powerlevel and it's no use comparing. Even though few om my players have experienced character death, all of 'em have had at least one close encounter.

You as the GM chose the powerlevel and thus how lethal the game is within the written rules.

Edit: And I also carefully monitor the use of the ambidexterity edge. Specially the two highest levels of it. The same with aptitude.

This post has been edited by L.D: Jan 17 2004, 07:17 PM

[LoseAsDirected]

[Prototype]

I don't really want to wade into the lethality debate cross system... but I feel I have to!!!

D&D is more inherently dangerous than SR if you take that to mean the chances of your character dying. Okay, so you can be brought back to life... but I wonder why such a mechanism is introduced to a roleplaying game... perhaps because it's too easy to die!

At starting levels or high levels, against equally matched foes or against unevenly matched foes... D&D can be easy to take an unlucky hit in and just die. Or to fail a save and just die. There are no re-rolls to save you. Your dead.

In SR there are no resurrection spells, why? Well, ignoring any 'in character' reasons... there's a lot less need for them. A critical hit from a longsword can take even a first level fighter straight to -10 hit points, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Prototype]

Sorry, L.D. but I just GM here... I didn't pick the power level... I just cracked open the BBB and said go get 'em tiger. I applied all the rules from there for chargen.

I didn't hand out delta grade like sweeties or anything, we're just using the rules in the books! And I monitor things like aptitudes and ambidexterity just as closely as the next guy!

Also, I prefer LoseAsDirecteds way of working things, in that - in SR - a Red Samurai is always a Red Samurai... whether the players are 10 karma runners or 300+ karma runners. I guess you favour alternative style of play as you talk about tailoring opponents to the tough guy character you published. But it doesn't make the world any more lethal.

[Austere Emancipa...]

And this is where the stuff about starting chars in D&D vs SR I talked about comes in. There's no point discussing a 1st level guy taking a crit from a long sword (which, by the way, is very unlikely to put a 1st level fighter to -10, unless you routinely send 1st level parties against orogs or something) unless you then consider a BeCKS 200 Karma or 60BP character getting tagged with 6 successes on an AR burst.

[Tanka]

1) There's an edit button. Use it. :D

2) What makes a game more lethal? Being killed easily, knowing that somebody will have a Resurrect spell handy. Or being killed, and being dead for good. I'd say the second option.

D&D is all the luck of one die roll. You can do many things: Fail miserably (botch), fail, succeed, succeed well, or succeed insanely well. All based on one die. The chances are rare, but they happen more often than with multiple dice.

On Pools: They make sense. Why? With Combat Pools, you can either put everything into making sure your opponent goes splat, making sure you don't go splat, or a mixture of the two. And then you can use martial arts manuvers as suggested in Cannon Companion.

On Karma: It makes sense that somebody with a KP of, say, 5, is going to be able to spend one point of KP to counter a botch. Why? Karma is virtual experience, knowing things that have happened to you already, and being able to adapt. So now, whenever you're firing that little Ex EX you picked up from the Red Samurai you somehow managed to geek, you've seen what it does when you misfire (botch), so now you know how to avoid that. Suddenly, you botch, and if you don't spend that KP, you've got an explosion in your hands. Bam! Lethal, done.

Now, one thing that my GMs have done is limit KP refresh to per run. Not per scene, but per run. That means that you can't just sit there and blow all your karma when you know that you're going to get it refreshed after this, you have to save it for a "Just In Case" so you don't blow your buddy's head off in a misfire.

[bwdemon]

SR rules are not lethal. The setting claims that it is lethal and dark, but the rules don't bear this out. Well, correction, the setting can be very lethal to a character with 2s in all attributes, no combat skills, and no equipment (certainly, this is no shadowrunner). House rule this, house rule that, house rule several other things, and suddenly SR uses almost entirely different rules and it still has problems thanks to the d6 probability issue. As Prototype said, SR, as written, has hordes of problems making combat lethal, let alone remotely realistic. Even the "called shot" examples require house rules and a GM willing to screw over a player through multiple rounds of aiming and an unseen shooter to provide a chance at causing damage, not even lethal damage.

Someone above mentioned how untrained people were really bad in SR compared to those with training. I highly disagree. A skill of 1-2 is almost a death sentence. You're almost always better off defaulting until you get to 3+ (exception: when your default attribute is bad too). When a character with amazing physical ability (20 Quickness character mentioned above) learns a little bit about pistols, he becomes totally inept with them. If he doesn't learn a thing about them, he's actually pretty dangerous. It's a fundamental flaw with the skill-only system, magnified by the use of small numbers for stats & skills.

SR isn't the worst system out there, but it has a ton of flaws. I house rule availability, weapon damage, automatic & burst fire, legality, price codes, street indexes, and other things just in order to make the game playable. That means rewriting a large portion of the game and that doesn't speak well of the system. I still don't like the problems inherent in the d6 successes-based, skill-only, large-increment system, but I'm stuck with them because I haven't rewritten the entire game yet. For the record, I consider WoD to be the worst offender of the game systems that I know and play, though I expect that worse systems are out there.

[Playing Games]

[CanvasBack]

[Diesel]

Prototype:

I feel your campaign's lethality is so low because you are not implementing effective tactics. A ganger firing behind cover, especially if he has a bro with him to spot/cover him can be deadly, even if he has "just" a heavy pistol. Now you make a gang semi-intent on defending their turf, say with a sporting rifle on a rooftop and it just goes downhill for the players from there.

And that is just gangers.

Corporate security, with their knowledge of a compound, effective training, above-par weapons, gear, armor, communications, and intelligence can kill an entire, twinked-out even, runner team without breaking a sweat.

Play smart and your players will be filling out a lot more character sheets. Play hard and they'll just be buying a lot more gear at chargen to force you to play harder.

Combat in Shadowrun is lethal, generally to both parties involved. If you're not dead, you're screwed and will be reeeeaaal soon. Good luck!

[Austere Emancipa...]

[L.D]

But that's the thing, Prototype. As the GM you set the powerlevel.

I know that within the rules for a starting character I can create what you did. It's not difficult. But saying that Raven (the guys stats I posted) isn't a sammie becuase he doesn't meet up to a munchie character just shows the difference in powerlevel.

By tailoring opponents I don't mean that I change the stats of Red Samurai. If you think that, then you're completely missing the picture. What I meant was that if I for instance wanted to give Raven something to do in a battle it made the situation very lethal for the decker (actaully most of the team except Raven). But on the other hand if I created an opponent based on the decker, then Raven would swat said opponent like a fly. And I always try to give all characters something to do in a fight, even the decker. Just to keep my pleyers from getting bored.

[LoseAsDirected]

[tete]

Being a long time runner and gm I would have to say that shadowrun 3rd is not as deadly as second but with D20 the lethality goes down with levels unless the common weapon damage goes up (as any good DM will do) I don't care if its starwars, call of cthulu, traveller, whatever d20 game you play. To use D&D if your sixth level and your DM wont let you have a +1 sword yet, your in for a world of hurt. Shadowrun doesn't have this level based problem (or advantage depending on your point of view) so in theory joe security guard can kill the uber combat monkey troll (unlikely though). Bringing back the dodge pool from 1st edition into 3rd has really lowered the chance of death from joe average. I think 3rd as a system doesn't have to be deadly, but it should be. The main thing is as a gm remember this is a "real" world, cops don't fight to the death but they do call for backup. The more you breath life into you npcs the more you realise when a gun is pulled someone will die (pc or npc). And your not gonna be a character whos squatting and has 500,000 nuyen in cyberware (you have to sleep sometime and when you do those bums will cut you open and sell you). How far you want your realism is ulitmatly up to your group. I have personally converted shadowrun to d20 and GURPS. The d20 version even with vitality and such is a more john woo feel. The GURPS is way more gritty and realistic (way too deadly for non troll newbies). Both however have lost part of the feeling that is the system. If you ever played deadlands you'll understand how a system makes a game feel very different. For me Im sticking to 3rd. Its not perfect but it just feels good.

PS I want to know how you get a quickness of 20 as well. And Elf gets a quickness of 7 + exceptional attibute would be 8... thats alot of karma to get to 20. like well over 600 i think. of course theres cyberware but most tops out at 8 which would give us 16 but still... not to mention most cyberware doesnt stack with other cyberware or magic.
One other thing to remeber when firing a gun most people aim, a TN of 4 is an unaimed shot. Personaly I usualy aim for my first action then fire a round. Its alot easier to hit with a TN of 3.

[LoseAsDirected]

Well, 20 is possible, but that's about as munchkin as I can imagine..

In the time, karma, and nuyen it would take for a PC to get a Quickness of 20, you could have just as easily gotten a Pistol skill of 10, and you would still be better off. So the entire argument is pointless.

[bwdemon]

[RedmondLarry]

[bwdemon]

A 20 Quickness is ridiculous, but it is possible under SR3. Elf + Exceptional Attribute (Quickness) + Enough Karma to get up to new racial max (12 Quickness) + Muscle Toner (+4 = 16) + Suprathyroid Gland (+1 = 17) + Move-By-Wire 3 (+3 = 20). Delta and culture as you wish. Alternately, you can get rid of MBW and the Suprathyroid Gland for a nice +4 Quickness spell lock.

I agree that it's ridiculous. But it is possible and the fact remains that this character becomes less competent by training in Pistols to anything less than 5. There should *never* be a situation in a game where a character, any character, becomes worse at doing a thing by training in it.