Launch Weapons, How do they work? Options

[Muspellsheimr]

I am currently designing a military vehicle that will be using launch weapon missiles (p.124 Arsenal).

The rules for such are:

The following weapons are large, self-propelled projectiles that can be fired from specialized launch platforms or released from the wings of aircraft and helicopters.

The problem is, there is no reference on where to go for information on these launch platforms, or the capacity of various aerial vehicles. The Weapon Mount modification provides no answers. The Torpedo Launcher is about as vague as it can get. I cannot find any other reference.


So, basically, what/where are the rules for using these weapons?

[kigmatzomat]

The problem is, there is no reference on where to go for information on these launch platforms, or the capacity of various aerial vehicles.

So, basically, what/where are the rules for using these weapons?

I loaned out my BBB earlier but for combat mechanics look at the end of the combat chapter for a section mrked "rockets and missiles." Missiles may also require a dip in the rigger rules since they make a Sensor test to
aid in the shot.

Page 310 of the SR4 BBB has launchers. Unless it says otherwise, launchers can fire both smart missiles and dumb rockets. Virtually all are single-shot weapons except for the Yakosuku (sp?) MRL that holds 8 rounds. I believe there are a few other launchers in Arsenal, such as the Ballista that requires special rounds.

IIRC, vehicles need the reinforced mount to hold a launcher. The main problem with missiles is the short range (1.5km) and the limited ammo (usually 1). The Yakosoku helps with capacity but nothing but house rules fix the range.

[Muspellsheimr]

Which does not address the issue at all.

Launch weapons are not fired with a missile launcher. They are not addressed in the core book at all - they do not exist in the core book. And in Arsenal, where they do exist, there are no rules for actually using them (specifically installing them & load capacity).

[Kliko]

Well, you could classify grenade launchers, missile launchers and rocket launchers as launch weapons. I don't have SR4, Arsenal or whatever 4th edition book, but I find it hard to imagine they don't make an appearance somewhere in there.

[kigmatzomat]

Launch weapons are not fired with a missile launcher. They are not addressed in the core book at all - they do not exist in the core book. And in Arsenal, where they do exist, there are no rules for actually using them (specifically installing them & load capacity).

Launch weapons are missiles. The text in arsenal refers to them as missiles. Firing them uses the missile rules. So thppt.

However you are right, they don't indicate their size relative to the standard missiles in the BBB. Given that they include a 500lb iron bomb, it's pretty safe to say that at least one of them weighs at least 500lbs. That's an irritating oversight.

Me, I'd just assume that every reinforced mount can act as a single-shot launcher, much the way most large projectiles take up an entire weapon pylon on jet fighters. On larger vehicles (strategic bombers, battleships) a launcher would take a reinforced weapon mount with internal reloads each taking one "ammo bin" per missile. The launchers would be SS, with reloads taking the same time as any other SS weapon.

So for a hypothetical submarine you could have four torpedo tubes (reinforced weapon mounts x 4) with 8 reloads (8x ammo bins). The shooting of those torpedoes would follow the rocket/missile rules given in the BBB depending on if it was a "smart" torpedo that can track a target (missile) or is a dumb torpedo that goes in a straight line (rocket).

[Muspellsheimr]

I suggest you try reading the section again. Only one of them is referred to as a missile. Further, it cannot be fired from a missile launcher, as it is technically a launch weapon, not a missile - and launch weapons are 'fired from specialized launch platforms' or 'released from the wings of aircraft'.


Again, there are no rules I can find for installing them on a vehicle (I would assume a Reinforced Heavy Turret), or how many can be loaded per rack (with the exception of one, which specifies in the description it needs a small torpedo launcher).

[Dumori]

A few need a large torpedo launcher as well. I've been thinking the same and two things came to mind either you could use the ammo bin doubles the ammo coapity rules to carry a huge number of missiles. On the other hand speicilised machinery modification could be used with each installation of the mod holding body number or something like that.

[kigmatzomat]

I suggest you try reading the section again. Only one of them is referred to as a missile.

Actually two weapon systems are missiles, the Outlaw and the AIM (air interceptor missile). Of course, those two systems comprise more than half the entries on the launch weapons table.

As for the torpedoes, there are torpedo launchers in Arsenal on p.145, which the torpedo descriptions actually state. Torpedoes are nothing more than underwater missiles so they use the missile attack rules, like I said before.

Since the small torpedo launcher that fires mini-torpedoes requires a standard weapon mount and the large "launch weapon" torpedo launcher uses a reinforced mount, that probably mirrors for the other launch weapons, a standard mount for the BBB missiles and a reinforced mount for the launch missiles/bombs.

As for the launching of a depth charge, I'd expect the last sentence on the torpedo launcher "..the weapon mount can be fitted with a weapon capable or modified to shoot underwater" would apply.

Unless stated otherwise, you'd expect each mount to hold a single "round" with the ammo bin option holding reloads. Which is what I said before.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually two weapon systems are missiles, the Outlaw and the AIM (air interceptor missile). Of course, those two systems comprise more than half the entries on the launch weapons table.

As for the torpedoes, there are torpedo launchers in Arsenal on p.145, which the torpedo descriptions actually state. Torpedoes are nothing more than underwater missiles so they use the missile attack rules, like I said before.

Since the small torpedo launcher that fires mini-torpedoes requires a standard weapon mount and the large "launch weapon" torpedo launcher uses a reinforced mount, that probably mirrors for the other launch weapons, a standard mount for the BBB missiles and a reinforced mount for the launch missiles/bombs.

As for the launching of a depth charge, I'd expect the last sentence on the torpedo launcher "..the weapon mount can be fitted with a weapon capable or modified to shoot underwater" would apply.

Unless stated otherwise, you'd expect each mount to hold a single "round" with the ammo bin option holding reloads. Which is what I said before.

This is how we use it...

[hobgoblin]

Glad to see i'm not alone, as this is one thing i ran into when i first got arsenal and have tried to bring attention to more then ones, but never got a definitive response to from anyone related to the production of the book...

Given that, and a hinted at mercenary book, i suspect things will be more detailed in the future (and the book will show up right before the announcement of SR5).

[Dumori]

The only thing about the weapon mount idea is one ammo bins stae they double the number so it would by 1, 2 ,4 8 ect. The fighter bomber in arsenal would still have a pretty feeble arsenal compered to today's fighter bombers.

[hobgoblin]

unless they come up with a special kind of bin for that use (see hail barrage vs man portable rocket launcher)...

[kigmatzomat]

The only thing about the weapon mount idea is one ammo bins stae they double the number so it would by 1, 2 ,4 8 ect.

That is a common math-to-english issue with additive properties. Rather than using the wordy "a bin adds another increment of ammunition equal to the weapon's base ammunition" they say "a bin doubles the weapon's ammunition" (paraphrased)

This trips people up who add multiple bins who apply all bins.

Besides the obvious illogical nature this is false because a) it never says "doubles weapon +bins" and b) the bins are a VEHICLE mod rather than a weapon mod.

So each bin would independantly act to in effect double the ammo capacity, which in the case of single-shot missiles would add one missile per bin.

The fighter bomber in arsenal would still have a pretty feeble arsenal compered to today's fighter bombers.

SR weapons are plastic toys compared to real weapons. The AIM from arsenal has a range of what, 5km? An oldish short range AIM like the sidewinder has 10km
range. A midrange AIM is more like 20km.

Given that and the overall inexpensive nature of the vehicles, I think we can say the published SR4 vehicles are the Ford Festivas and Chevy Geos of the military world.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ain't that the Truth... Combat vehicles are CHEAP...

[Falconer]

I believe launch weapons are basically suicide drones. (like the Heimdall, only much bigger... not the kind of thing you can stuff 20 of into a single multi-launch drone rack).

Think of some of the bigger ones like the torpedo drones or anti-ship missiles.

[BullZeye]

I would say if a missile is on a flying machine like a helicopter, a drone or a plane, it doesn't necessarily need a tube to launch a smart missile, it ought to be enough to pretty much just let go of it and the missile would stabilize itself mid-flight. Now on a ground vehicle, you need a tube to give the missile at least some direction and hell of a lot space behind the missile or else you'd be toast. So a reinforced mount for land vehicles and a simple one for planes (that fly high enough) It is possible to add a "clip" and a reloading mechanism on a tube to reload it, but I think usually one just adds more tubes for the weapon to get more ammo to be fired in short time. a.k.a "Ok guys, who installed the front loading torpedo launcher?"

Or what kind of launch weapons are we talking about? Catapult is kind of a launch weapon, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dumori]

Missiles and torpedoes.

[Falconer]

Check the rules Bullzeye.

Drone racks count against the allowable weapon mounts on a vehicle. So it's quite fair to say the game considers a drone rack a legal weapons mount (though not necessarily the drone loaded in it). In fact, heavy drone racks (normal and landing) are pretty much heavy weapons mounts w/ double the normal requirements.

It's a complex action to launch a drone from any rack. Which also answers the question on what action would be required to fire them.


Look at the naval section of arsenal... attack sub... 2 large weapons mounts... torpedoes plus drone racks... but I'd probably just treat the torp tubes as large drone racks (complex to fire, minute to reload manually, or maybe roll a number of dice equal to the crews profesionalism as an extended test to reload it faster). But even todays torps are pretty much suicide drones... no reason they'd get dumber IMO.

[BullZeye]

Oh I know how the rules work, but I got the impression that people weren't happy and just offered a possible houserule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As some people say that comparing modern airplanes with missiles, using the rules from Arsenal makes it next to impossible to pack equal armament on a 2070 made jet than it is to arm say... F/A-18. Hence I would allow such flying machines to be armed to the teeth with missiles or rockets, as long as they wouldn't try to hide them. Then again, who in their right mind would fly over a town on low altitude packing 20 missiles under the plane's belly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (corps excluded).

I don't think it is necessary to make firing a torpedo or a missile a complex action (And by the rules it isn't). Both missiles and torpedoes work pretty much the same way on launch: something pushes them forward as fast as possible and AFTER the launch, the "smartness" comes into play. Firing a rocket or a smart missile isn't any different.

[kigmatzomat]

I don't think it is necessary to make firing a torpedo or a missile a complex action (And by the rules it isn't).

For smart (aka Sensor equipped) munitions it essentially is. You make a Sensor test to get lock then a Gunnery test (with bonus dice equal to the Sensor test successes). 2 simple ~~ 1 complex

And for riggers or Pilots it is a complex to fire any weapon system. I forget what the Sensor test is.

Both missiles and torpedoes work pretty much the same way on launch: something pushes them forward as fast as possible and AFTER the launch, the "smartness" comes into play. Firing a rocket or a smart missile isn't any different.

Ummm..... No. While most missiles and torps are "fire and forget" very few munitions do their own target selection. The classic "missile lock" is positive confirmation that the weapon's Sensor suite agrees with the launch platform's (usually superior) targeting system. While smart weapons can reacquire lock, they are usually myopic with intentionally limited fields of view because the possibility of swapping targets can have disastrous results.