Cyberpunk 2020, sell me on or off Options

[Wesley Street]

It's okay. You're still loved.

[Chrysalis]

I started playing CP2020 in 1996!

rec.games.frp.cyber for the fights, wins, and spills.

[Cthulhudreams]

The biggest problem with the game is that because guns are so dangerous, in combat everyone who isn't a solo just isn't a contributor. It is quite possible for a tricked out solo to kill all the mooks before anyone else in the party even gets to act. Or, conversely, if the other guys are solos, they will kill the entire party before anyone gets to act. It is fun like being murdered.


This non contributor status includes the other supposed combat classes, like the native bikers and whatever else. The system blows as a result (what the hell is everyone else supposed to do? You have a Face, the Combat Guy and the hugely tedious matrix guy which sucks donkey cock. What the hell is the 4th role in the party suppose to be? The books make like it is 'the guy who drives the van around' but being a taxi drive is awesome fun.. not.)

Instead, if you want to play CP2020, just copy paste shadowrun rules in, ban magic, make essence the limit of cyberware and Cap the number IP passes you can get to something.. lower.

[Synner667]

The biggest problem with the game is that because guns are so dangerous, in combat everyone who isn't a solo just isn't a contributor. It is quite possible for a tricked out solo to kill all the mooks before anyone else in the party even gets to act. Or, conversely, if the other guys are solos, they will kill the entire party before anyone gets to act. It is fun like being murdered.

Whine, whine, whine.

Guns are supposed to be dangerous.
The whole point of Solo is they are good at combat, and not much else.
As a result CP2020 is not about standing up and shooting people until someone falls over - because that isn't very sensible. It is about using your brains and some sort of tactics.

This non contributor status includes the other supposed combat classes, like the native bikers and whatever else. The system blows as a result (what the hell is everyone else supposed to do? You have a Face, the Combat Guy and the hugely tedious matrix guy which sucks donkey cock. What the hell is the 4th role in the party suppose to be? The books make like it is 'the guy who drives the van around' but being a taxi drive is awesome fun.. not.)

whine, whiine, whine.

CP2020, and most modern RPGs, are supposed to be about "teams" and "co-operation" - concepts that you may not be aware of.
They work to the assumption that everybody isn't good at everything, therefore specialists work together to accomplish tasks.

Unlike "old" RPGs like AD&D, combat is not the only way to gain experience points for improving Characters. Therefore, there are other ways to gain experience to improve the character.
If you can't play any role apart from a guy who shoots and kills things, fair enough - do that, and there'll be a role in almost any team.
If you want to play something other than a Solo [you know, every other role in the team], hire one for when trouble starts and the guns start blazing - but stop trying to be a non-combat specialist who wants to be a Solo.

CP2020, and the realworld, are not designed around the idea that the only role for a Character is combat. There are plenty of things for other people to do. There are plenty of other roles available. There are plenty of opportunities for those other roles to contribute.

What's the point of blaming CP2020, or any other RPG, because it doesn't do what you want - move on and play something else, or write your own and play that.

[Cthulhudreams]

If you're going to be a team and cooperate, everyone has to contribute something. Which means they need a role. On the team. Like I said.

So without roles on the team, you don't have a team or any co-operation.

Did you even read my post? What the hell is the other role in the team aside from the shootist and the talky dude. The hacker is so totally unplayable in the general scheme of things (takes to long where the other players do nothing, so they will go play the xbox rather than sit there not caring) that we have 2 team roles and then other people who just duplicate what those two bring to the table.

As for the solos dominating combat thing, that would be fine if combat didn't take a stupidly long time to resolve if anyone used an automatic weapon. Instead it just leads to smash bros on the part of the players who have no method to contribute, and jealousy on the part of the players who are supposed to be contributors - the other combat classes - but are rendered completely irrelevant by the solos.

[Chrysalis]

Alright let me run combat from memory.

Initative.

Special ability+skill+weapon of choice.

Hits or does not hit (GM decides on how difficult the shot is. 10+ whatever)

Hits, location, damage

Usually we wave location since otherwise people get statistically hit in the right leg a lot.

Anything that penetrates your armor goes through.

You bleed.

You want to run automatic fire, simple. How many rounds are you firing 1,3, or 10? Oh 10. Okay roll for a hit. It hits. One roll or ten up to you. They either get past the armor or do not (recommend for an SP20 jacket rolling the 10 or 3 times).

Even your face (which by the way does not exist in CP2020, unless you are talking about the Rockerboy or the modified politician from the Rockerboy in the basic book) can have a shot.

To be honest worst experience as a Sam was in Shadowrun where the other player was a possession voodoo mage who made an average 30 dice of damage and had armor in roughly the equivalent level. In that situation I was redundant.

[Critias]

What is it about Solos that makes them dominate your combat so much, even compared to Cops and Bikers and whatnot? The only thing they bring to the table that no one else at all can is their Combat Sense. An initiative boost is nice and all, but it's not the be-all end-all of combat (especially between multiple opponents).

Plenty of other archetypes have enough access to combat skills to be very dangerous with guns...especially since, as you said, the firearms in and of themselves are innately pretty deadly.

It's not like Shadowrun where you need a ridiculously high combat skill in order to rack up successes to make a weak weapon dangerous. It's a core hit/miss mechanic, with degree of success not playing any part at all. Anyone pointing a gun at you is dangerous.

[MYST1C]

It's a core hit/miss mechanic, with degree of success not playing any part at all.

With one exception: automatic fire. Check Result minus Difficulty equals number of bullets hitting (max. up to the number of shots fired, of course).

[MYST1C]

Special ability+skill+weapon of choice.

Actually, it's: REF + Skill + Weapon Accuracy + Check Modifiers (Smartgun, injuries, etc.) + 1d10.

Hits or does not hit (GM decides on how difficult the shot is. 10+ whatever)

Base Difficulty is by range. GM can apply situational/environment modifiers.

You want to run automatic fire, simple. How many rounds are you firing 1,3, or 10? Oh 10. Okay roll for a hit. It hits. One roll or ten up to you.

Now, that's simplified. Actually, it's either burst (3 rounds fired, 1d3 rounds hit) or fully automatic (player choses number of rounds up to max ROF of gun used, check results determines number of hits).

They either get past the armor or do not (recommend for an SP20 jacket rolling the 10 or 3 times).

And every round that penetrates reduces the armor rating (that might be an optional rule, I'm not sure right now) - useful if you have several hits...

Even your face (which by the way does not exist in CP2020, unless you are talking about the Rockerboy or the modified politician from the Rockerboy in the basic book) can have a shot.

"Faces" do exit in CP2020: Fixers. Specifically, the Wildside sourcebook introduces a number of Fixer subclasses, including socially orientated ones (this book redefines the basic "Fixer" class presented in the core rules as in fact of the Black Marketeer subclass.)

[silva]

Oh shit, all this talk is getting me anxious to play this game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- - -

So, for the sake of speeding up combat, what would be a nice fixed value for a d6?

I thought that, if using the default armor values, maybe 1d6 = 6 (maximum value) may be good?

While if using (the suggestion someone gave) half the armor values, then 1d6 = 3 or 4 may be good?

[Cthulhudreams]

I just said talky guy - it could easily be a fixer, rocker boy, corporate or whatever.

Anyway, the reasons solos tend to dominate is that they always go first, and generally if they can hit stuff they are off the RNG from everyone else, or at least it is so close that they'll almost always hit.

so combat is the solos go first, everything dies, warm remainder gets to do something. And yeah, I don't think the combat resolution system is acceptable - because I'm pretty sure you've forgotten location based damage, so isn't it

Automatic weapon, 10 shots, hits 6 times or whatever, roll for location 6 times, determine that 2 are behind cover roll for damage 4 times.

So the solo squeezing the trigger just took.. 11 separate dice rolls? Awesome! And I'm pretty sure the system had defence rolls too -doesn't it?

Now it has been a while since I played and I only played a half a dozen games before realising I'd rather contract herpes than continue, but also couldn't you split fire with automatic weapons or strafe or something?

Plus Ref is just a stupidly broken stat in the system.

An initiative boosts are the biggest thing you can have in combat. Consider

1 vs 1: If you go first, you hit and win. Thus, securing going first is essential. The lower the chance of a hit is, the less important going first is, but as lethality is high, this is important.

1 vs Many: Going first is really important, especially 1 vs 2, but it boils down to how easy it is to hit, and if I've remembered the rules correctly in that if you take multiple actions in a turn you take a -3 penalty to hit on each, but it means if its easy to hit generally you can mass murder a bunch of people?

Situation: Easy to hit) Go crazy with multiple action strafes and rack up heaps of kills

Hard to hit) Clock some guy and just play the numbers game.

[silva]

Soooo... a fixed value for a d6? huh? huh?

[Kingboy]

Now it has been a while since I played and I only played a half a dozen games before realising I'd rather contract herpes than continue...

That about sums it up nicely for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I should say though that it's the rules which I don't care for, not the background. There's actually a lot of fluff that I like about it, better than some of the Shadowrun fluff (I'm looking at you IEs/Dragons). If I'd ever sit down and put together my ideal small-'c' cyberpunk campaign it'd be cobbled together from a lot of the bits I like from both games' backgrounds, using SR4 rules (minus most of the magic) and assorted pop culture bits thrown in. Mostly because I like the idea of using Zik-Zak as my zaibatsu of record. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

There is a set of rules that were eventually added that intrigued me, but I've yet to hear reports of how well they worked. That would be the use of premade Netrunner decks to handle hacking tasks. The netrunner could go play a solitaire game and do his thing while the rest of the group did thiers. Seemed like an interesting idea at least, especially after Netrunner bombed out as a card game and could be picked up for dirt cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

I feel like, in theory at least, SR1 is closer to CP2020 than SR4 is. Failing all else, SR1 had the archetype, and equipment to support the Rocker. The downside is, SR1 mechanics were still pretty rough. But in general, yes, I'd much, much rather play SR mechanics in a CP world than just straight-up CP. CP feels like it's designed to be played without heeding the rules much.

[Wesley Street]

Failing all else, SR1 had the archetype, and equipment to support the Rocker.

I'm a 4e guy but on this I will strongly agree. A Shadowbeat-ish supplement that covers musical activist and musician PCs and NPCs tops my current SR wish list.

Who wouldn't want to start a rock band/hip-hop group?

[Chrysalis]

Depends can I be the singer?

Eurotour!!

Best CP2020 adventure evah! You get to play a group that works as bodyguards for an industrial band.

Best idea for a campaign ever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mmm... Mayber I should start one like that... have it during the Eurowar in SR...

Now I want to phone up Ohgr and beg for ideas on what kinds of madness I could place. The drugs, the parties, the music, the onstage vivisections!!

-Chrysalis

[Adarael]

Ohgr's daily life these days tends to be "wake up, eat cereal on couch, yell at roommate about crazy shit on internet, fuck around with music, eat lunch, smoke out, eat cereal." Or at least it was two years ago. He is a shockingly ordinary person.

Yes, he has a roommate. It's very funny.

[Chrysalis]

I haven't talked to him in ages. Now I miss him *sniff*.

[Adarael]

Visit LA. Get out of Finland. You know you wanna.

Also, in the interests of keeping this thread from deviating too much from the source, I put forth that Land of the Free/Home of the Brave and Firestorm I are some of the most awesome gaming books ever

[Chrysalis]

Moving to Bahrain (I hope) in June. Never liked LA, besides my cousin Nikki works there for a gallery as a photographer. Then there is her ex Joey who I promised I would break his legs. Good reasons to come for a short period of time.

There have been consistently good books for CP2020. Firestorm and Shockwave were good.

[MYST1C]

There have been consistently good books for CP2020.

And besides excellent writing most of them also feature artwork of such a high overall quality and consistency that SR has never reached (especially the consistency part - I'm looking at you, guns and metahumans).

[DWC]

And besides excellent writing most of them also feature artwork of such a high overall quality and consistency that SR has never reached (especially the consistency part - I'm looking at you, guns and metahumans).

That's not fair. SR started packed with great Bradstreet art. It got away from that and went goofy and cartoony, but that's another issue. By the way, did the third Second Corporate War book ever come out? I've got Firestorm and Shockwave, but I've never been able to find a third book in the series.

[Chrysalis]

That's not fair. SR started packed with great Bradstreet art. It got away from that and went goofy and cartoony, but that's another issue. By the way, did the third Second Corporate War book ever come out? I've got Firestorm and Shockwave, but I've never been able to find a third book in the series.

The third book never did come out. CP v3.0 was supposed to cover the third book.

[Cthulhudreams]

I should say though that it's the rules which I don't care for, not the background. There's actually a lot of fluff that I like about it, better than some of the Shadowrun fluff (I'm looking at you IEs/Dragons). If I'd ever sit down and put together my ideal small-'c' cyberpunk campaign it'd be cobbled together from a lot of the bits I like from both games' backgrounds, using SR4 rules (minus most of the magic) and assorted pop culture bits thrown in. Mostly because I like the idea of using Zik-Zak as my zaibatsu of record. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

The background isn';t half bad - as I said, you could just splice in SR4 (you'd STILL need some better matrix rules but oh well) and it would be funky.

[DWC]

Shame, really. Other than my readthrough after buying it, I haven't touched my V3.0 book. Meanwhile, the two Firestorm books sit on my shelf with my current edition SR stuff, where I can swipe ideas or inspiration at a moment's notice.