Air Assault Go-Gangs of Seattle, I'm not making this up... Options

[Method]

There have been a number of threads discussing the viability of militarized gangs and what it basically boils down to is your vision of the world. Many think that parts of the industrialized world in 2070 are equivalent to Mogadishu today and the corps and governments are either too fragmented or too apathetic to do anything about it.

[KCKitsune]

There have been a number of threads discussing the viability of militarized gangs and what it basically boils down to is your vision of the world. Many think that parts of the industrialized world in 2070 are equivalent to Mogadishu today and the corps and governments are either too fragmented or too apathetic to do anything about it.

I think Go Gangs with this level of firepower would be bad for business. The Corps would want these bozos shut down and shut down HARD!

[GreyBrother]

*snip*

Then please excuse my snarking. I always saw the Nimrod as the 70's equivalent of the MQ-9 Reaper with an appropriate wingspan and everything (i am not really good at visualizing lenghts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

[Method]

I think Go Gangs with this level of firepower would be bad for business. The Corps would want these bozos shut down and shut down HARD!

It all depends. What costs the corporations more: loosing an occasional truck or a military operation to bring law and order to the barrens? As long as people are uneducated, discontent or desperate there will be crime, and none of the corps are rushing to build schools in the barrens or employ all those unwashed masses. You kill one go-ganger and there are half-a-dozen street punks waiting in line to take his place. You can decide you don't like the idea of go-gangs in your game, but the cannon says there are SINless, and there are Z-zones and there are militarized gangs.

And if you think its an simple matter for corps or militaries to just clean up a gang problem, you are mistaking. Inside the Z-zones its really more like Mogadishu, Somalia or Sadr City, Iraq. I doubt I have to recount for you the recent history of sophisticated military forces attempting to operate in those urban environments. If you want a more "domestic" example, take a nighttime stroll down the National Mall in Washington D.C. If it were easy to clean up a gang problem the U.S. capitol would be safe for citizens, but law-abiding people don't go there at night because its too dangerous.

[kzt]

And if you think its an simple matter for corps or militaries to just clean up a gang problem, you are mistaking. Inside the Z-zones its really more like Mogadishu, Somalia or Sadr City, Iraq. I doubt I have to recount for you the recent history of sophisticated military forces attempting to operate in those urban environments. If you want a more "domestic" example, take a nighttime stroll down the National Mall in Washington D.C. If it were easy to clean up a gang problem the U.S. capitol would be safe for citizens, but law-abiding people don't go there at night because its too dangerous.

This isn't an urban warren, this is an interstate highway. It's two very long 20 meter wide strips of concrete surrounded by large amounts of open space with fences preventing easy access. You can only enter and exit at well defined points. There isn't any population or buildings to hide in, because nobody lives right on I5 outside a very limited number of places, and there are walls and fences around it. If you move on I5 you can be spotted and tracked. If you leave I5 you can be tracked. If you shoot guns the flashes are seen, if you start a fire the thermal sig is seen for miles. If someone calls for help on I5 it's easy for aerial support to find them rapidly and if someone comes up with a clever idea like jammers that is easy to spot also.

Gangs are easy to solve, you just have to be willing to do the things needed. Issues like "civil rights" and "due process" are obstacles to dealing with them. SR tries to both have their cake and eat it. The police in SR have a willingness to use force and contempt for rights and procedures that would make an ACLU member curl up in a fetal position for a week and have immediate access to massive firepower that no modern police force would dream of having at all, much less flying around ready to unleash.

Lets propose an SR style solution to bad people on the national mall. You place 6 sniper teams on high points covering the mall, each with a close protection team. Then you send in 3 or 4 robbery decoy teams. If they get threatened (defined very loosely) the threats get shot in the head. You repeat this for a week. On day 8 how many muggers and gang bangers are there going to be on the national mall at night?

[Chrysalis]

Then please excuse my snarking. I always saw the Nimrod as the 70's equivalent of the MQ-9 Reaper with an appropriate wingspan and everything (i am not really good at visualizing lenghts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) )

That's alright. The Nimrod is kind of based on the A-10 warthog and MQ-8 Fire Scout. The problem with aerial drones is lift. The Nimrod to be kewl has been made small. Unfortunately then you have a whole lot of other problems such as limitations of weapon packages it can incorporate. This is not counting the lack of usual problems of signal weaknesses in an urban environment.

The major problem with the Nimrod is that as a tilt rotor is that its a loud little beast, even using electrical motors and battery power it still has the equivalent sound of an angry weedwacker. The armor of 8 and a body of 4 means that it can be taken out with an RPG or an antimateriél rifle.

The 3B which I wrote up is basically the A-10 Warthog as a UAV, with an updated sensor package and the use of solar panels allowing it to have an operational life from hours to days. Obviously it has a different operational role than a Nimrod.

[hobgoblin]

how about a bit more Machiavellian?

yes, lone star or knight errant could basically go to war with the z-zones and break the backs of the gangs. but then they would be out of a reason to exist in the way they do...

also, if one where to wipe out the z-zones, where would one "hide" all the sin-less?

[Cardul]

how about a bit more Machiavellian?

yes, lone star or knight errant could basically go to war with the z-zones and break the backs of the gangs. but then they would be out of a reason to exist in the way they do...

also, if one where to wipe out the z-zones, where would one "hide" all the sin-less?

And, if one were to crush the go-gangs, how would you conceal the stuff you deliberately lost? How many of those supposed "go-gang hits on corp trucks" are really the corp hitting itself so they can hide something, and say they "had it stolen"?

[hobgoblin]

hehe, now i got the mental image of truckload of toxins getting lost on its way to a expensive sanitation plant for destruction, blamed on go-gangs, and the promise to increase security in the future.

then a week later the whole load shows up in some out of the way dumping ground...

also gives me the idea for a run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

johnsons, fixers and the need to know...

[Psikerlord]

We've only used go-gangers in the barrens and other largely lawless areas. If they come into more civilized zones, they have to be prepared to strike quick and get the hell out.

[Ryu]

This isn't an urban warren, this is an interstate highway. It's two very long 20 meter wide strips of concrete surrounded by large amounts of open space with fences preventing easy access. You can only enter and exit at well defined points. There isn't any population or buildings to hide in, because nobody lives right on I5 outside a very limited number of places, and there are walls and fences around it. If you move on I5 you can be spotted and tracked. If you leave I5 you can be tracked. If you shoot guns the flashes are seen, if you start a fire the thermal sig is seen for miles. If someone calls for help on I5 it's easy for aerial support to find them rapidly and if someone comes up with a clever idea like jammers that is easy to spot also.

Agreed upon. Do enough to warrant an aerial response, and you are in trouble. Still, rotor drones all over the town does not happen, as providing hackers and (worse) technomancers with deniable assault gear all over the town isn´t wise.

Gangs are easy to solve, you just have to be willing to do the things needed. Issues like "civil rights" and "due process" are obstacles to dealing with them. SR tries to both have their cake and eat it. The police in SR have a willingness to use force and contempt for rights and procedures that would make an ACLU member curl up in a fetal position for a week and have immediate access to massive firepower that no modern police force would dream of having at all, much less flying around ready to unleash.

Issues like "civil rights" and "due process" were created with the understanding that a functioning society can´t allow certain tactics to happen and keep functioning. Police is even nowadays massivly outnumbered by the rest of the population (which is good). If they try to extend their coverage, they find themselves outnumbered by far.
And SR society has it worse than real live: more downtrodden, militarised gangs and syndicates, lack of cooperation, magic and technomancy. Even the gang in blue has to pick a territory.

[Kerenshara]

We've only used go-gangers in the barrens and other largely lawless areas. If they come into more civilized zones, they have to be prepared to strike quick and get the hell out.

Exactly the first point I wanted to make.

The second was that most of the aircraft cited - folks, we're thinking a) too large and b) too 20th century.

In seventy years from the first powerd flights at the dunes of Kittyhawk, we had built passenger airplanes capable of routinely crossing continents and oceans with one hundred or more people at twice the speed of sound; We landed men on the moon. Within the next forty years we had a semi-permanent manned presence in space, day-to-day dependence on satellites in orbit and casual air travel by the middle class. We have seen the first effective vertical takeoff jets and an aircraft that can't seem to decide if it's a helicopter or a turboprop airplane (see: V-22 Osprey). In another sixty years, with the benefits of new materials, computer processing power for modelling and design, and time to develop new engineering ideas, why couldn't we have VERY small personal air vehicles? Look at the older artwork: prior to the drone, most aerial support was via YellowJackets - tiny single person helicopters. And I DO mean tiny, with rotor spans less than a two-lane road. Also remember the various vectored thrust (T-bird) vehicles (DocWagon^TM uses them for HTR teams) and other "VTOLs" in use in the game. Runners usually avoid them because they're a) expensive and b) obvious as hell. But they would all be perfectly at home between the wide avenues of devastated parts of the 'plex OR RACING ABOVE ROOF TOPS! To quote Mr. Spock "He's intelligent, but his patern would seem to indicate TWO DIMENSIONAL thinking." Think vertical since we're talking about aircraft. Only the "core" of the 'plex is especially "tall" in regards to aircraft playing tag at low level.

As to logistics of aircraft, hydrogen's cheap in the future (it's one of the listed fuel types in the fluff), and batteries have gotten WAY more advanced both in storage and weight. A future carbon-fiber evolved material and wicked engineering could mean the pilot is literally the heaviest and bulkiest single component of the vehicle. So logistics might not be the problem some people seem to be assuming.

Now, for a go-gang, it's about the thrill, so financial gain isn't the motivation in the first place. And most go-gangs already happen to hang out in areas the corps and cops have abandoned (sometimes BECAUSE of the go-gang's activities).

So I see no reason a lerger, better financed and successful go-gang might NOT have a few aircraft terrorizing around the skies.

[hobgoblin]

In a quick bit of attempted rationalization, how about this:

Up to the 70's-80's, being a police man was seen as a profession to look up to and respect.

But then came things like the vietnam war, and the police became a villain, used by the government to suppress contrary opinions and minorities en mass. After that, its become popular to be the classical criminal, the gangster, as they at least was willing and able to defend themselves, unlike the neutered masses.

Now how about in SR there is massive spin control by the big boys? When lone star rolls out the heavy artillery its portrayed as the clean shaven, big chinned officer that gallantly steps into the dirt to protect the common citizen from the sub-humans, and only fly by night independent media provides the image of the young meta-human being beaten to a near pulp by the lone star thugs in full riot gear, just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time (coming out of the corner stuffer shack near a drug bust gone bad maybe).

[Kerenshara]

In a quick bit of attempted rationalization, how about this:

Up to the 70's-80's, being a police man was seen as a profession to look up to and respect.

But then came things like the vietnam war, and the police became a villain, used by the government to suppress contrary opinions and minorities en mass. After that, its become popular to be the classical criminal, the gangster, as they at least was willing and able to defend themselves, unlike the neutered masses.

Now how about in SR there is massive spin control by the big boys? When lone star rolls out the heavy artillery its portrayed as the clean shaven, big chinned officer that gallantly steps into the dirt to protect the common citizen from the sub-humans, and only fly by night independent media provides the image of the young meta-human being beaten to a near pulp by the lone star thugs in full riot gear, just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time (coming out of the corner stuffer shack near a drug bust gone bad maybe).

I don't have a single problem with anything in this post. It's to the point, and actually is a great candid description of how the media and "law enforcement" in the Shadowrun universe actually operate. To which post were you specifically responding?

[hobgoblin]

technically it was aimed at Ryu's post...

[kzt]

Agreed upon. Do enough to warrant an aerial response, and you are in trouble. Still, rotor drones all over the town does not happen, as providing hackers and (worse) technomancers with deniable assault gear all over the town isn´t wise.

Actually, they do have rotor drones all over town. The Lone Star Strato Drones. Armed with a MMG, used for routine surveillance.

[hobgoblin]

Actually, they do have rotor drones all over town. The Lone Star Strato Drones. Armed with a MMG, used for routine surveillance.

Probably loaded with stick-n-shock or gel rounds, unless its operated close to z-zones. Or maybe even then, in case one found it hijacked and used against own personel...

[kzt]

Issues like "civil rights" and "due process" were created with the understanding that a functioning society can´t allow certain tactics to happen and keep functioning. Police is even nowadays massivly outnumbered by the rest of the population (which is good). If they try to extend their coverage, they find themselves outnumbered by far.

And SR society has it worse than real live: more downtrodden, militarised gangs and syndicates, lack of cooperation, magic and technomancy. Even the gang in blue has to pick a territory.

You may have noticed that for all the negative characteristics of 1939 Moscow under Stalin and 1939 Berlin under Hitler, it didn't include anti-government street gangs running half the city. Or a pervasive fear of random street crime by the residents.

See the ongoing extermination of the Tamil Tigers for a counter-example.

[Kerenshara]

Probably loaded with stick-n-shock or gel rounds, unless its operated close to z-zones. Or maybe even then, in case one found it hijacked and used against own personel...

Many military vehicles today have selectable ammunition feeds, so the drone would be able to respond both in a less-than-lethal fashion, and also to tear up anybody foolish enough to cross it's pre-programmed threshold into "lethal force authorized". I would figure Gel on one belt and Standard on another. The "conversion" option for dual feed is listed in Arsenal.

[DireRadiant]

I can totally see a VR gang jacking a bunch of armed rotodrones and roaming the streets... cheap and easy and chock full of thrills.

[Kerenshara]

I can totally see a VR gang jacking a bunch of armed rotodrones and roaming the streets... cheap and easy and chock full of thrills.

*shudders* OK, now THAT is a disgusting image.

"Hey, Bob, do you hear that buzzing sound?"
"Yeah, Joe... what the hell is it?"
*Rattatattatattatattatat!*
"Aieeeeeeeeeee!"
"Gurgle..."

[hobgoblin]

and thats my reason for saying stick-n-shock only...

for riot suppression its plenty, and can be used for spotters until the heavies arrive if needed...

[Warlordtheft]

technically it was aimed at Ryu's post...

And then how does ARES channel 7 report the masacre/riot/incident....?? They wouldn't be biased against Lone Star would they? Fair and Balanced, just like they advertised.....They have no interest in making KE look better than Lone Star.

There will be differing points of view, usualy dependent on their own self interest. Hence the lack of cooperation to help "law enforcement".

[Kerenshara]

and thats my reason for saying stick-n-shock only...

for riot suppression its plenty, and can be used for spotters until the heavies arrive if needed...

Remember: the Star and KE are both COMPANIES and the bottom line matters. Stick-n-Shock is expensive. And their Public Relations/Spin departments are slaried, so it's cheaper to just deal with any occasional "accident" that might occur. And also remember, they take their network security pertty seriously and they have a number of riggers and spiders full time monitoring for any shenanigans like that. It would take a concerted and powerful cyber attack to be able to hijcak more than a single drone.
Remember Fight Club? A recall is only issued when the estimated price of the lawsuit settlements exceeds the price of the recall and fix. I figure cheaper ammo trumps (meta)human life.

[hobgoblin]

sadly, its one of the movies on my all to long "never got round to watching" list...

its one of those movies that came out while i was way to deep within my own world to really watch anything close to popular culture...