cyberscanners are physically imposible, Yet again shadowrun broke science Options

[OneTrikPony]

I only come here about every year or so, mostly to bitch. looks like it's that time again.

Posibly my search foo is as week as my spelling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I've searched for "cyberware scanners", "Cyber Scanners" and Scanners and read the posts back to 2006.Why does no one mention that Millimeter wave or even terreherts wave detection systems cannot penetrate Water?

Terahertz_radiation

Terahertz radiation is non-ionizing submillimeter microwave radiation and shares with microwaves the capability to penetrate a wide variety of non-conducting materials. Terahertz radiation can pass through clothing, paper, cardboard, wood, masonry, plastic and ceramics. It can also penetrate fog and clouds, but cannot penetrate metal or water.

I vaguely recall that the human body has alot of water in it. And alot of that water is in the skin. Given that 1 + 2 = (a night to tell your freinds about) It seems to me that internal cyberware cannot be detected by cyberware scanners OR radar sensors.

Would someone please explane this to me? (and if you have time fix my spelling. Thanx (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Relevent cannon Info that I'm aware of:
SR4:20 pp, 262
BBB, pp. 255
Aug. pp. 36,38 (edit: OOPS sorry I ment aug not arse.)

Also some links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_high_frequency
http://www.tsa.gov/approach/tech/mwave.shtm
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11826
Google Image surch of semi-atractive naked people
http://www.millivision.com/
http://www.mwt-materials.com/index.htm this one is particularly Cool!://http://www.mwt-materials.com/index....larly Cool!://http://www.mwt-materials.com/index....larly Cool!

On a side note, Dumpshock Looks Awesome NOW! Thanks Adam or who ever was responcible for makeing it much easier for me to be inflamitory.

And also: I thought I was a little pissed at having to buy an intermediate version of the game but I love the new book! It' looks great is easier to read in some places and mage's got NERFD na na na nana! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
+ I love saying SR 4:20

[Method]

Earth's Field NMR = small semi-portable MRI that doesn't require large magnets. I can assure you that MRIs would detect cyberware... and bioware for that matter.

[Rusted Scrap Met...]

Earth's Field NMR = small semi-portable MRI that doesn't require large magnets. I can assure you that MRIs would detect cyberware... and bioware for that matter.

X-Rays can detect implants. I've got a bunch of real life implants in the right side of my chest, my shoulder, and my upper right arm. I can't get an MRI because of them and "embedded metal" so to speak. But the X-Ray shows them plain as day.

Amusing thing is, I do set off airport metal detectors if they're cranked up high enough, and the hand-held "squealers" go off on my shoulder reconstruction.

Now, out of real life and into sci-fi, ignore what psuedo-science they use in the book.

Go with the "scanners" they used in "Total Recall" (IIRC), which would show the embedded cybersystems.

[Malachi]

*sigh* Magic, dragons, spirits, metahumans.... but scanners that can detect cyberware are completely unbelievable...

[OneTrikPony]

first I should admit that this is an entirely new concept to me and may not be like High Field NMR at all. But I see a couple problems.
1. how do you achive perpendicular fields in a handheld device?
2. how long does it take to make a scan at resolution adequate to actualy identifying components?
3. I don't think the spectroscopy really aplies at all does it?

*sigh* Magic, dragons, spirits, metahumans.... but scanners that can detect cyberware are completely unbelievable...

I could do with out those actually, but that's not my complaint. My point is that Dev's are perfectly capable of using google and so must be aware that mm wave and terehertz frequencies don't look through skin.

So, Has the intended use of the gear been missinterpreted by the user? I mean is everyone just asumeing that a cyberscanner is an exray machine, fluff to the contrary, when that wasn't the intent of the developers? "millimeter wave scanner" and "Ultrawide band Radar in the terehertz range" are pretty difinitive ways of saying, 'this is how this works.' IMHO it's also strongly implys what tech is not being used. So given that we know exactly what tech is being used are we using/playing it wrong?

Also the fact that these scanners and sensors have an extreme range, (when compaired to MRI and x-ray) indicates to me that those things aren't being used in this particular gear.

on a side note, I'd be pretty pissed if it were somehow socially/mecially acceptable to subject me to several x-ray scans every day.

I'm thinking that cyberware scanners just dont detect ware that is under your skin.

[Method]

X-Rays can detect implants. I've got a bunch of real life implants in the right side of my chest, my shoulder, and my upper right arm. I can't get an MRI because of them and "embedded metal" so to speak. But the X-Ray shows them plain as day.

We don't use MRI's on people who have metal implants because of the possibility that the metal components may shift. The metal also produces considerable artifact, making the images harder to read. Basically it one of those things where the risks outweighs the benefits of the study given the current SOTA. But they are already hard at work on ways to use MRI with metal implants. Believe me, orthopaedic docs have a considerable interest in adapting the technology.

And more to the point, the whole idea behind the Earth Field NMR is that it *doesn't use huge magnets* to generate the field- er other than the huge magnet we call Earth...

[Method]

first I should admit that this is an entirely new concept to me and may not be like High Field NMR at all. But I see a couple problems.
1. how do you achive perpendicular fields in a handheld device?
2. how long does it take to make a scan at resolution adequate to actualy identifying components?
3. I don't think the spectroscopy really aplies at all does it?

I am by no means an expert but:

1.) This would take a little imagination, but I could see the emitter being built into a doorway or corridor and the receiver could be handheld. But stand-alone AND handheld is tough. I don't know, really. More so my point is to reassure you that scanning for cyber is not "physically impossible" as you proposed.
2.) My understanding is that the limiting factor is computer processing speeds. SR has already fixed that for us.
3.) Not sure I understand your question.

[Rusted Scrap Met...]

We don't use MRI's on people who have metal implants because of the possibility that the metal components may shift.

Oh man, talk about something that could leave you screaming...

I smashed my hand and bent one of the pins, and it hurt all the time for months until they fixed the pin because the slight bend in the pin put stress on the anchor points, which made the whole thing ache.

You know...

That could be a VERY nasty weapon for a hallway. A bunch of high intensity electromagnets, set to go off on a trigger, that do rapid pulsing, designed to shift and damage ferrous components. And a high enough power magnet. Just shifting small parts of it could cause blinding pain, or cause it to stop working or work sporadically.

[hobgoblin]

is the water level of a body uniform? specifically one that have large foreign objects inserted into it?

[Method]

is the water level of a body uniform? specifically one that have large foreign objects inserted into it?

No. Thats where the contrast in an MRI image comes from- the different densities between water in fluids (blood and CSF for example) and tissues. It also depends on how the MRI is "weighted". In a T1 weighted image fluids are dark, whereas in a T2 weighted image water is bright. The different "weights" and water densities allow you to see different degrees of detail in different tissues.

{edit} This is all very basic, BTW. The actual physics involved are beyond my understanding... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

{edit2} HERE is an image that shows the different fluid densities in the brain. Compare the top two images.

[OneTrikPony]

is the water level of a body uniform? specifically one that have large foreign objects inserted into it?

Ha! I'm sure there's a joke there somewhere. Give me some time and I'll figure out how to say it without getting banned on my first day back.

That could be a VERY nasty weapon for a hallway. A bunch of high intensity electromagnets, set to go off on a trigger, that do rapid pulsing, designed to shift and damage ferrous components. And a high enough power magnet. Just shifting small parts of it could cause blinding pain, or cause it to stop working or work sporadically.

OK you've topped yourself. that is more evil than x-raying me every time I come back from a smoke break.

@ Method. that's probably right processing power is probably the limiting factor in resolution. IF the unit is just reading latent magnetic fields I'm not to clear on wether this system is 'pasive' or 'active'. I still don't see how a range of 15 meters can be achieved in an MRI.

To be clear i'm not saying that scanning for cyber is imposible I'm just saying that IF the listed scanners are looking under the skin that they break science. Or I'm missinterpreting the way they work in the game.

thanks for talking with me yall. I think the thing i like most about SR might be Dumpshock.

Edit: OOH OOOH! Got it!
"And then he said; 'Wow Baby! That was great! let me get you a gatoraid.'"

[Method]

I still don't see how a range of 15 meters can be achieved in an MRI.

Yeah. Like I said you might still need a good dose of virtual similitude (AKA suspension of disbelief).

thanks for talking with me yall. I think the thing i like most about SR might be Dumpshock.

Glad to be of service. And welcome back.

[Rusted Scrap Met...]

OK you've topped yourself. that is more evil than x-raying me every time I come back from a smoke break.

Here's another thought for you...

How does the cyberlimb work as far as internal powerpacks? Want some real fun, wrap a powerful electromagnet around a 3" diameter PVC pipe, then put a cellphone battery in the pipe and hit the juice for 5 seconds.

The battery is usually fragged.

Another wonder, regarding the scanner...

How well shielded are the components? Would a good enough scanner pick up any emission scatter from the cyberlimb, even if it is syth-fleshed?

[OneTrikPony]

Here's another thought for you...

How does the cyberlimb work as far as internal powerpacks? Want some real fun, wrap a powerful electromagnet around a 3" diameter PVC pipe, then put a cellphone battery in the pipe and hit the juice for 5 seconds.

The battery is usually fragged.

Another wonder, regarding the scanner...

How well shielded are the components? Would a good enough scanner pick up any emission scatter from the cyberlimb, even if it is syth-fleshed?

One posibility for batteries:
capacitor batteries.
I supect that capacitor batteries, which will offer realistic energy density as soon as we learn to mass fab bucky tube cheaply, wouldn't have the same proplem as Li batteries in a magnetic field. But, for all I know a trillion nano capacitors might have an even worse problem.

from Augmentation pp. 33

a note on power
Thanks to modern technology, the need to use
battery packs or external power sources to operate
cyberware is a thing of the past. With the exception
of energy weapons and (at the gamemaster’s
discretion) certain high-energy-consumption devices,
augmented characters do not need to worry
about powering their implants, including such
’wares as cyberlimbs and reaction enhancers.
Many implants simply use the body’s own natural
neural bioelectricity, sometimes storing and redistributing
this power using superconductive and
macroconductive materials. Other implants use
micropower technologies such as thermoelectric
generators that rely on the temperature differences
between the body and its environment and
nanoscale generators that convert power from
the mechanical energy of movement.

As to the emisivity of the hardware I believe it's still cannon that most electronics are driven by red green algae. Just jokeing, I can't find the reference right now but optical based electronics would drasticly cut the emmissons from cyber.

As to cyber limbs. I'm thinking they're more easily detected by a scanner than they are by visual inspection. IIRC a synthetic limb has a -4 perception mod (equivelant to the chamelion suit.) but is almost immediately obvious in a physical search. and Obvious limbs are... obvious.

What Im wonderig about specifically is bonelace. Take aluminum bonelace. not ferrous, not detectable by MAD but has an availability rating of F (forbiden) meaning it's only an option for millitary types. It has a damage modifyer similar to Spurs ie. it would be considered a deadly weapon by law. However, it's completely encased in real skin. Not detectable visually, not obvious to physical search, and not detectable radiologically by anything less than an X-ray.

[kzt]

As to the emisivity of the hardware I believe it's still cannon that most electronics are driven by red green algae. Just jokeing, I can't find the reference right now but optical based electronics would drasticly cut the emmissons from cyber.

No, you can't make "optical motors", so the actuators can be spotted. And the RF field from the motors is a lot stronger than the RF from the control electronics, assuming you turn off the wireless insanity.

What Im wonderig about specifically is bonelace. Take aluminum bonelace. not ferrous, not detectable by MAD

Sorry, Aluminum shows up just fine. Metal detectors work by inducing an electric field in conductive substances. Like Aluminum.

[Mäx]

I thought that Ultra Wideband Radar could is used for x-traying.

[OneTrikPony]

No, you can't make "optical motors", so the actuators can be spotted. And the RF field from the motors is a lot stronger than the RF from the control electronics, assuming you turn off the wireless insanity.



Sorry, Aluminum shows up just fine. Metal detectors work by inducing an electric field in conductive substances. Like Aluminum.

OK, but what motors are there in my headware comlink... OH right! the disk drive and the cd player. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hmmm. no shit? that would be why I cant get into a courthouse with my big brass belt buckle. Duh! I swear I knew that. thanks for the correction.

So what's your take on gigahertz/Tereherts RF penetrating skin?

edit: screwed up the quote earlier. sory

[Kerenshara]

*sigh* Magic, dragons, spirits, metahumans.... but scanners that can detect cyberware are completely unbelievable...

*falls out of chair, laughing so hard I'm crying*

[kzt]

Hmmm. no shit? that would be why I cant get into a courthouse with my big brass belt buckle. Duh! I swear I knew that. thanks for the correction.

So what's your take on gigahertz/Tereherts RF penetrating skin?

With enough power you can penetrate virtually anything that isn't a Faraday cage. 2.437 Ghz is a good approximation for the average center frequency of a US microwave oven. It WILL penetrate skin. . . .

[OneTrikPony]

but microwaves don't penetrate water verry well wich is why my hand hurts when I microvave it and why my pot pie is ALLWAYS still frozen in the middle.

Edit: also, tecnically microwave band frequencies are longer than 10 cm which is why theyre not considred to be millimeter wave radiation. and also why they're better at cooking stuff than your typical radar sensor would be.

[OneTrikPony]

I thought that Ultra Wideband Radar could is used for x-traying.

I'm reading a paper right now about seeing through walls. The point of seeing through walls is so you can see the people on the other side right? the reason AFAIK that you can see the people is that you DON'T see THROUGH the people.

[Rusted Scrap Met...]

but microwaves don't penetrate water verry well wich is why my hand hurts when I microvave it and why my pot pie is ALLWAYS still frozen in the middle.

I'm new to the board...

This is sarcasm, right?

[OneTrikPony]

I'm new to the board...

This is sarcasm, right?

what do you mean? my hand really does hurt when I microwave it.









(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DuctShuiTengu]

1.) This would take a little imagination, but I could see the emitter being built into a doorway or corridor and the receiver could be handheld. But stand-alone AND handheld is tough. I don't know, really. More so my point is to reassure you that scanning for cyber is not "physically impossible" as you proposed.

This one actually shouldn't be that hard (though my ability to explain may be somewhat lacking). Rather than putting the emitter on a fixed attachment to the handheld device, have it floating within the device and use gyroscopic technology (or simply weighting it properly) to keep it aligned however it's supposed to be. Might not hold up to sudden or violent movements too well (depending on quality, and the level of precision necessary), but for most situations, it should work well enough. Now, getting power to the emitter without a fixed attachment there could be another problem, but you've got 60 years to figure that one out.

[KitsuneKaze]

Some suspension of disbelief is necessary, believe me, asking things like this are asking for trouble.

The composition of my group means if we hadn't made this agreement we would still be arguing before ever doing a run.

We have amongst our group.

2 Computer System Engineers (read electrical), both with joint degrees in Computer Science
1 Chemical Engineer with a full PhD.
1 3rd year student chemical engineer.

If your going to pick holes in SR technology, there are some beauty's. I'll take one of those endless batteries in that cyberlimb for my drone sir!!. I have a signal range on this baby of 500m (in the terahertz band????) and so on and so forth.