IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Nature of Digital Currency
Ayeohx
post May 21 2009, 03:40 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-September 06
From: Utah USA
Member No.: 9,402



Since my campaign takes place in Seattle the nuyen is our primary currency. Unfortunately I have very little information on how the currency works.

Here's what I know:
  1. Nuyen has digital signatures. (pg 124 Sprawl Survival Guide)
  2. "The only way to counterfeit nuyen is to copy an existing certified credstick." (Forgery rules, pg 95 Unwired)


Here's what I need to know:
  1. What media can nuyen be stored on? Banks and credsticks only or anything which has memory.
  2. If you can store nuyen on anything, say an optical chip or a commlink, why would you specifically need a certified credstick for forgeries?
  3. If nuyen can be stored on any storage media then how is nuyen stored? One file per nuyen?
  4. Is every single nuyen tracked and by whom?
  5. If I steal "Nuyen A" from Bank #1 can I deposit it in Bank #2? Or is that nuyen somehow flagged as stolen?
  6. Similar to the above, say I hold up a fellow and transfer his money to a certified credstick. If he reports that money as stolen, is the nuyen flagged as stolen?
  7. If nuyen can be flagged as stolen what stops people (Mr J) from paying people and they saying that money was stolen? And professionalism isn't enough; half the time they try to kill you.
  8. Can you move nuyen from a bank account to credsticks or can this only be done by the bank that issues the credstick? The reason that I ask this is banks use to charge (and possibly still do) charge fees for certified credsticks equal to 10% of what went on the credsticks.


I know I'm missing a few questions but this is a good starting place. Please leave references for your post if at all possible. The more facts the better.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 04:28 AM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



A note: SR hasn't published oodles on the nuyen yet, so take all this with a grain of salt. Some more details will be forthcoming in Vice and Corp Guide.
QUOTE
1. What media can nuyen be stored on? Banks and credsticks only or anything which has memory.

Nuyen is just a file; so you can theoretically store it anywhere. In practice, however, nuyen exists only in certain secure bank systems and accessed by accounts - rather than transfer the files, the records of ownership are amended to show a transfer has occurred. Certified credsticks are generally an exception in that they contain the actual datafiles in a (mostly) tamperproof form to facilitate certain transactions. The fact that you have the actual files is what allows them to be counterfeited, and even then it's only a matter of time before the counterfeits are discovered when multiple nuyen with the same serial number shows up in the system.

QUOTE
2. If you can store nuyen on anything, say an optical chip or a commlink, why would you specifically need a certified credstick for forgeries?

You cannot normally transfer the actual files, so even moving nuyen to an optical chip or other non-credstick storage device outside of certain purely internal bank procedures would be hideously illegal. Any nuyen not in a bank account or certified credstick would automatically send up a red flag as counterfeit or stolen to whoever you're transferring the nuyen to. A fixer might not care if your nuyen is coming off a Mitsuhama bank chip, but he'll scan it to make sure you aren't scamming him.

QUOTE
3. If nuyen can be stored on any storage media then how is nuyen stored? One file per nuyen?

Pretty much. Each nuyen is little more than a long encrypted number or statement with a unique serial number.

QUOTE
4. Is every single nuyen tracked and by whom?

You can track every nuyen. When a transaction occurs, your bank and the bank of the store/company/person you're dealing with make a note of it and register the transferal. So there are records with the sending bank and the receiving bank, plus whatever other authority keeps track of transactions of that nature (if any), though probably individual serial numbers might not be kept track of in that case.

QUOTE
5. If I steal "Nuyen A" from Bank #1 can I deposit it in Bank #2? Or is that nuyen somehow flagged as stolen?

To get from Bank #1 to Bank #2 requires some transaction to take place, and there has to be a record of that transaction, or it's obvious something weird and illegal happened, because Bank #1 still has a record of all transactions with that nuyen and if it doesn't have a record of sending it to Bank #2 (or to somebody that sent it to somebody that sent it to Bank #2, etc.), that's a red flag.

Really, stealing nuyen requires you to either disguise it as a legal transaction, or launder the money. Unless it's certified cred, where the physical possessor owns it.

QUOTE
6. Similar to the above, say I hold up a fellow and transfer his money to a certified credstick. If he reports that money as stolen, is the nuyen flagged as stolen?

The actual files can't be altered (except for being forged) while on the credstick, so in that sense they can't be marked as stolen, but corporate and government agencies can create lists of "stolen" or "marker" serial numbers for various purposes, and check all their transactions against them (doesn't take but a nanosecond). The agencies looking for it will eventually run across the nuyen and can trace its transaction history until they either hit a wall (money laundering; politics) or the point where it was transferred off the credstick. Of course, even then there's no guarantee that the criminal will be caught, since possession of a certified credstick in and of itself is neither a crime or proof of criminal activity - but it can be substantial evidence of such, in corroboration with other proof.

QUOTE
7. If nuyen can be flagged as stolen what stops people (Mr J) from paying people and they saying that money was stolen? And professionalism isn't enough; half the time they try to kill you.

Escrow accounts get around this; it's pretty hard to prove someone "stole" an escrow account, and as I pointed out above setting out flags for certified credsticks isn't a real winner, though it can help Mr. J track the runners and gain information about their spending habits and lives for later use and abuse.

QUOTE
8. Can you move nuyen from a bank account to credsticks or can this only be done by the bank that issues the credstick? The reason that I ask this is banks use to charge (and possibly still do) charge fees for certified credsticks equal to 10% of what went on the credsticks.

You don't explicitly need a bank for a certified credstick; it's implicit that you're transferring nuyen from your bank account to the certified credstick you purchased (the cost of the credstick is probably the bank's transaction fee).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ayeohx
post May 21 2009, 08:39 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-September 06
From: Utah USA
Member No.: 9,402



Awesome, thanks for taking the time to answer Ancient.

I'm still a bit confused about something. Say I get a certified credstick from a bank for 5000 nuyen. I believe that it cost me 5500 total. Can I choose to transfer more money to it without involving the bank (and incuring more fees)? Say from my offshore account to the credstick? And is there a limit of 5000 nuyen the the stick can hold?

I was always under the impression that you could not directly transfer money to a credstick yourself, only the bank could transfer nuyen to it. For the most part, you could only take nuyen out of credstick. Is this right?

Also, after the bank creates the certified credstick does the bank have anything else to do with the funds on that stick or is it totally out of the system?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chibu
post May 21 2009, 11:59 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 494
Joined: 19-February 05
From: Amazonia
Member No.: 7,102



Huh, well that's silly. (Please note, I am in no way saying that anyone is wrong about anything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) Why would they transfer the actual files to a cert credstick? Isn't that just ASKING for trouble? Also, wouldn't it be alot easier to make certified credsticks work like those Visa gift card things? Basically, it's the same as a bank account, but it has a specific amount of money in it and it's not registered to anyone so anyone who is holding it can use it. I wonder why they went out of their way to make certified cerdsticks (a little bit) forgeable. Certified credsticks using a completely different transaction method than other ones is very strange.

Also, (unless they don't use it at all in 4e) there's always physical money that can be (still hard to do) forged. But that's off topic.

Since the topis IS digital currency... Can you pay like... a street thug with 10Y from a certified stick (with 5K on it)? How's that work? We've always just handwaved it and had money able to work when it needed to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post May 21 2009, 12:07 PM
Post #5


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (Ayeohx @ May 21 2009, 04:40 AM) *
The Nature of Digital Currency

Simple: Don't. Go. There.

It'll only cause you pain. Especially given the weak cryptography of SR4.

It works by definition. Somehow.
Or rather, it doesn't, see Spoofing Life.
But no-one talks about it. Like the elefant in the room. Or credit cards.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 01:50 PM
Post #6


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Ayeohx @ May 21 2009, 08:39 AM) *
I'm still a bit confused about something. Say I get a certified credstick from a bank for 5000 nuyen. I believe that it cost me 5500 total.

Actually, that's 5k + the cost of the credstick (25 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ). The convenience fee depends on how impolite your GM is feeling.

QUOTE
Can I choose to transfer more money to it without involving the bank (and incuring more fees)? Say from my offshore account to the credstick?

An offshore account, by definition, would involve some sort of banking entity. Pretty much any transfer of funds to or from a credstick involves a bank, unless you're physically handing the thing over, which is the entire point.

QUOTE
And is there a limit of 5000 nuyen the the stick can hold?

Depends on the type, see the Certified Credstick Table.

QUOTE
I was always under the impression that you could not directly transfer money to a credstick yourself, only the bank could transfer nuyen to it. For the most part, you could only take nuyen out of credstick. Is this right?

No such limitation is ever given, so no. Frankly, it's your cred, you can do what you want with it.

QUOTE
Also, after the bank creates the certified credstick does the bank have anything else to do with the funds on that stick or is it totally out of the system?

The bank undoubtedly keeps a record of the transaction and what nuyen were downloaded in the credstick, which someone following the money trail can find later, but aside from that they're pretty well out of it.

QUOTE
Why would they transfer the actual files to a cert credstick? Isn't that just ASKING for trouble?

Whenever you insist on a degree on anonymity in financial transactions, you're encouraging trouble, but it's a service that remains in demand.

QUOTE
Also, wouldn't it be alot easier to make certified credsticks work like those Visa gift card things? Basically, it's the same as a bank account, but it has a specific amount of money in it and it's not registered to anyone so anyone who is holding it can use it.

Different animal. The money in the gift card's account is still being held by a bank or credit card company, and that company registers all transactions and maintains total control of the cash. If that company suspects wrongdoing, they can actually stop you from accessing the funds at any time. A credstick, by comparison, is as close as cash-in-hand as you get with electronic currencies.

(I could go into the nature of credit and inflation and how your gift card might not actually be dealing with "real money," but that's a minor point.)

QUOTE
I wonder why they went out of their way to make certified cerdsticks (a little bit) forgeable. Certified credsticks using a completely different transaction method than other ones is very strange.

One part retromancy, to start with. Holdover from previous editions. The entire concept of certified credsticks is essentially to replicate the anonymous nature of physical currency ownership.

For example, let's say you find a hundred dollar bill on the sidewalk. You pick it up. As far as anyone is concerned, that cash is yours, right? Who can prove otherwise? Well, if some mad old millionaire wrote down all the serial numbers of all his hundred dollar bills he could contest it, but that's probably not going to stop you from going into the nearest convenience store and buying a pack of oat bran muffins and a tall boy.

A certified credstick works pretty much the same way. If you scavenge it off of Mr Johnson's corpse, it's yours. Since cash has gone the way of the dodo, this is pretty much the only way to handle such post-mortem transactions.

QUOTE
Can you pay like... a street thug with 10Y from a certified stick (with 5K on it)? How's that work? We've always just handwaved it and had money able to work when it needed to.

Said street thug would need some sort of account, which essentially means they need a commlink (and no, being a technomancer doesn't count, unless you want to show me where the credstick port is).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chibu
post May 21 2009, 03:25 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 494
Joined: 19-February 05
From: Amazonia
Member No.: 7,102



QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 21 2009, 08:50 AM) *
unless you want to show me where the credstick port is

We're not even going there XD


EDIT: I decided I should actually post more than that. You made very good points. I suppose I wasn't thinking of it as Digital Cash, since you still can't really give part of it away without some intermediary device. Is there any other form of currency used, or any kind of (quasi)established bartering system that the poor use? I mean, it's gotta be pretty rough to do anything without the possibility of having money. Or rather, is it just that there is a higher usage of certified credsticks in the 70's than I'm assuming?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
deek
post May 21 2009, 03:37 PM
Post #8


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,706
Joined: 30-June 06
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Member No.: 8,814



QUOTE (Chibu @ May 21 2009, 11:25 AM) *
We're not even going there XD


EDIT: I decided I should actually post more than that. You made very good points. I suppose I wasn't thinking of it as Digital Cash, since you still can't really give part of it away without some intermediary device. Is there any other form of currency used, or any kind of (quasi)established bartering system that the poor use? I mean, it's gotta be pretty rough to do anything without the possibility of having money. Or rather, is it just that there is a higher usage of certified credsticks in the 70's than I'm assuming?

Yup...forget where I just read it...either Unwired or Runner Havens, but bartering is still widely used in the barrens. Cash is rare, but can still be found and is sometimes accepted.

In my games, when using credsticks transactions, they are either given as a whole (and verified via commlink as to the amount) or plugged into a commlink and transferred to a bank account (via commlink). If you don't have a commlink, I'd be wary of trusting any sort of digital currency...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 03:43 PM
Post #9


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



We haven't gone into it in great detail, but there are degrees of poverty. Even if you can't afford even the cheapest commlink, you could still potentially have a bank account - it's just accessing and using it that would be troublesome and awkward, as you'd have to use public terminals or have someone manually type in your account number and authorize the funds transfer. The SINless don't have a proper ID to authorize any sort of transfer, and would have to rely on biometrics and/or some sort of passcode for each transaction - if they can get an account in the first place, which may well be illegal or at least extremely shady.

Of course, people without any credit accounts at all are in a real jam, because that makes getting any money nearly impossible. They're stuck with barter, or physical currency if they can get it (and are then stuck dealing with places that deal with hard cred). This is pretty close to the state of the homeless today, except in that case even begging is not a seriously viable option because they have nowhere for funds to be transferred to and no way to access it even if they were. It's a hard knock life, chummer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlueMax
post May 21 2009, 03:53 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,336
Joined: 25-February 08
From: San Mateo CA
Member No.: 15,708



QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 21 2009, 07:43 AM) *
Of course, people without any credit accounts at all are in a real jam, because that makes getting any money nearly impossible. They're stuck with barter, or physical currency if they can get it (and are then stuck dealing with places that deal with hard cred). This is pretty close to the state of the homeless today, except in that case even begging is not a seriously viable option because they have nowhere for funds to be transferred to and no way to access it even if they were. It's a hard knock life, chummer.


I find hard currency in Shadowrun interesting. Sometimes its portrayed as viable and sometimes its not. A fixer in the Denver Missions carries hard currency to hand out to the needy. Yet, one has to wonder how useful the paper would be in some situations. Or at least how devalued.

As for Barter, some of us really like barter. Even out of game.

BlueMax
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post May 21 2009, 04:13 PM
Post #11


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



Money isn't a physical object anymore. (Unless it's corp scrip).

It's a record of that money.

When it moves, there's a record of it moving.

Imagine when you go shopping you show up with your bank statement, no Cash.
You select something to buy.
The vendor asks you for the money for the product.
You say, here, I have money.
The Vendor says, "How do I really know that's your account?"
You say, "I have the access codes, I can verify it's my money."
Vendor says, "Okay transfer it to me."
You say, "Ok", and you access your account, verify your identity, authorize the transfer to the vendors account.
The Vendor checks his account, and sees that the money was transferred.
You get the goods.

You have a record of that money moving between accounts
The vendor has the record of the money moving
The Bank also has records of the money moving between accounts.

Periodically the bank, the vendor, and you all reconcile those accounts to make sure it all adds up correctly.

That's the simplistic model. In practice, in addition to the three parties involved directly, there's going to be records of the transaction on every intermediate carrier on both the pure data, and any other intermediate service required to enable the transaction.

Certified Credsticks are simply accounts which only require authentication not tied to a specific identity. It still ends up going through the same set of transfer procedures. The reason you can't track an individual through a credstick is because while you can track a specific unit of currency, as soon as a transaction occurs, you can no longer be certain the unit of currency belongs to a certain individual. Imagine a dollar bill with a tracking device. You could always know where it is, but you can't tell who has it without using some other source of information.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ayeohx
post May 21 2009, 05:54 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 346
Joined: 17-September 06
From: Utah USA
Member No.: 9,402



Ok, so after checking SR3 I see that certified credsticks have changed a bit. You no longer need authentication do you? You use to be able to password protect some. The better ones had print, retinal and even cellular identification. And they don't seem to have an unlimited version either; max is 1 million now. Can you password protect certified credsticks now?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can tranfer funds between credsticks now, can't I? So if I have four of them with a few nuyen a piece I can move all funds to one stick? Without bank intervention, right? I'd probably need a commlink to facilitate the transfer though.

@DireRadiant
From the way I understood it, most people never actually touch their money; it's all in cred accounts. The exception is when you pull it out of those accounts via a credstick. A credstick actually holds the digitally signed nuyen. Thats why forgers need access to certified credsticks. I'm also under the impression that if the credstick is destroyed so is the nuyen.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post May 21 2009, 06:18 PM
Post #13


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



QUOTE (Ayeohx @ May 21 2009, 12:54 PM) *
@DireRadiant
From the way I understood it, most people never actually touch their money; it's all in cred accounts. The exception is when you pull it out of those accounts via a credstick. A credstick actually holds the digitally signed nuyen. Thats why forgers need access to certified credsticks. I'm also under the impression that if the credstick is destroyed so is the nuyen.


Digitally signed is still authenticated. It just uses codes instead of biometric data. The digital signature is still authenticated against another system.

When you log into Dumpshock, there is nothing that checks that the person behind the "Ayeohx" screen name is really the person who created the account, it's allows anyone who knows the account name and password to login and post. This is how a credstick basically works.

When you go to the bank and withdraw cash, you offer a signature as authentication that it is really you withdrawing the money. This is what happens with the commlink transfer, you use the SIN verification to show it is you, and then you give the account and login to make the money transfer.

There's actually lots of authentication going on in your basic commlink transfer. The user is authenticating who they are against a SIN system, each account is authenticating itself, proving they are real accounts, and then the transaction requests and processing and verification steps are all authenticated as well as all the data transportation and communications. The one that is not used in a credstick is the one requiring a personal identity to use the money account.

Even if there is a "file" on the certified credstick digitally signed, it still must be recorded as a transaction in the debiting account and the crediting accounts, which are not on the certififed credstick.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kigmatzomat
post May 21 2009, 08:08 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 909
Joined: 26-August 05
From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.)
Member No.: 7,626



Oh. Oh no. It's back. Crap.

Unless there's something in SR4A on the matter it's pretty much up to GMs. Is the cash an encrypted file, is the local data just for verification of identity, is it hardcoded to the comm, is it a PSK variant blah, blah, blah.


There's dozens of ways ecash could work IRL and a bajillion for the not-based-on-reality SRverse. Decide on one and move along.

I recommend simplicity and waiving away questions about details, much as you would about magic.

IMO a good way for GMs to deal with the theft racket is to have the hacker break into the patsy's comm and/or traffic and get enough successes on an Analyze test that they can Spoof the network to look like patsy and buy stuff on his dime. You then hock/barter the stuff for what you really want.

This let's hackers easily cadge dinner, drinks, and gas money from nearby patrons and pick up spare cash hocking stuff but for real cash they need to find a ritzy type with a high credit limit. The problem then is surviving their wrath since anybody with enough free credit to buy a car on a passphrase can afford to hire 'runners.

Ignore the details of certifies cred the same way. As per RAW certified credsticks can be forged if you have an original. The forgeries will work if you suceeded on your forgery check. But the system will flag every version of that stick as a forgery once conflicting versions are identified. Meaning a 5000Y stick is copied 3 times and used to pay 4 different people. Each comes up as legit as long as no one taps the funds. But if PersonA pulls 100Y ou to buy sushi on Tuesday, when PersonD tries to buy tires on Thursday the bank system screams bloody murder. If you don't want the forgeries to be detected immediately, the banking systems have to get more successes than the forger, make it a cumulative thing as the banks will share data. Eventually those forged sticks will be caught. If not and all the forgered nuyen are successfully spent, the hacker got lucky and fell through the cracks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post May 21 2009, 08:25 PM
Post #15


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



You need to push the "I believe" button. The weak cryptography BS combined with the "Certified credsticks" BS that are by cannon untraceable are mutually exclusive BS that will cause cancer if you think too much about it. Without pushing the "I Believe" button you can logically show that 12 year old hackers just make their own nuyen and nobody can do anything about it. At that point, why are you doing anything for money in this game?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post May 21 2009, 09:02 PM
Post #16


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (kzt @ May 21 2009, 08:25 PM) *
You need to push the "I believe" button. The weak cryptography BS combined with the "Certified credsticks" BS that are by cannon untraceable are mutually exclusive BS that will cause cancer if you think too much about it. Without pushing the "I Believe" button you can logically show that 12 year old hackers just make their own nuyen and nobody can do anything about it. At that point, why are you doing anything for money in this game?


Ladies and gentlemen... we have a winner.

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlueMax
post May 21 2009, 09:07 PM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,336
Joined: 25-February 08
From: San Mateo CA
Member No.: 15,708



QUOTE (kzt @ May 21 2009, 12:25 PM) *
You need to push the "I believe" button. The weak cryptography BS combined with the "Certified credsticks" BS that are by cannon untraceable are mutually exclusive BS that will cause cancer if you think too much about it. Without pushing the "I Believe" button you can logically show that 12 year old hackers just make their own nuyen and nobody can do anything about it. At that point, why are you doing anything for money in this game?


First,
Let me say that I agree completely. Applause to this great post.
Second,
We need an Icon we can put into any thread that gets caught in a similar trap.

Lastly,
12 Year old hackers? but the game has a mechanism built in for Free Sprites to do so.

BlueMax
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post May 21 2009, 09:20 PM
Post #18


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (BlueMax @ May 21 2009, 10:07 PM) *
but the game has a mechanism built in for Free Sprites to do so.

That's probybly the reason why you can play Free Spirits and AIs, but not Free Sprites.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post May 21 2009, 09:40 PM
Post #19


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



Think of digital nuyen as being a file that contains it's entire history back to exactly which atoms of gold it's backed by. Forging nuyen means forging the decades long paper trail.

Leave it at that and push the "I believe" button. Credsticks erase the paper trail (except what atoms of gold back the cash), which allows for untraceable transactions (when nuyen leaves the credstick it keeps a note of which credstick it came from and who the owner was--credsticks are based on DNA: whoever last held the stick is the legal owner of all the cash stored in it, and it can't be transferred anywhere except that person's account and vice versa).

Just don't ask how come you can't spoof a credstick.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 09:42 PM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 21 2009, 09:40 PM) *
Think of digital nuyen as being a file that contains it's entire history back to exactly which atoms of gold it's backed by.

<sigh> We're off the gold standard, mate. Have been for a while. Also: no, the nuyen does not contain a history of each transaction it's been through.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GreyBrother
post May 21 2009, 09:42 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 619
Joined: 24-July 08
From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star
Member No.: 16,162



QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 21 2009, 11:20 PM) *
That's probybly the reason why you can play Free Spirits and AIs, but not Free Sprites.

There was a Free Spirit Power to create valuable Goods in SR3. So... yeah.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BlueMax
post May 21 2009, 09:53 PM
Post #22


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,336
Joined: 25-February 08
From: San Mateo CA
Member No.: 15,708



QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 21 2009, 01:42 PM) *
<sigh> We're off the gold standard, mate. Have been for a while. Also: no, the nuyen does not contain a history of each transaction it's been through.

So, its a fiat currency is it?
Even more reason I believe in barter.

Draco, its not even money its currency!
Possibly obscure

BlueMax
/in a hackable world
//digital fiat
/// slams easy button
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KitsuneKaze
post May 21 2009, 10:32 PM
Post #23


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 5-June 08
Member No.: 16,035



I must admit to the sheer stupidity of the nuyen "on the stick" concept, anybody with an inkling of economic thought in the head realizes that the developers are trying to introduce "hard cash" in electronic form and somewhat failing the "think it through" test.

I too envision the credstick as a "link" to a very limited account rather then actual... cash. Even crappy SR encryption is not an issue if the sticks contain an extremely large one time pad which a section of which is used to authorise the transfer.

As for the traceability, that is easily dealt with with some logical thought.

Every corp, particularly AAA, sometimes needs to move money silently and without tracing, even within themselves. It is deep in the Corporate Councils interest to facilitate this. It is acceptable and indeed logical to assume the the credstick systems are held to be not touched by CC decree, perhaps even as each system is implemented a "key" is passed to each member. Tracing transactions "within" the Credstick system would only be viable with the agreement of all members of the council.

Lets face it, if an omega order has been pulled on you, credstick traceability is one of the least of your problems
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post May 21 2009, 11:44 PM
Post #24


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (KitsuneKaze @ May 21 2009, 04:32 PM) *
Every corp, particularly AAA, sometimes needs to move money silently and without tracing, even within themselves. It is deep in the Corporate Councils interest to facilitate this. It is acceptable and indeed logical to assume the the credstick systems are held to be not touched by CC decree, perhaps even as each system is implemented a "key" is passed to each member. Tracing transactions "within" the Credstick system would only be viable with the agreement of all members of the council.

It's also even more really desirable to PREVENT this, as this is what is called embezzlement. Untraceable transfers of funds where you can't determine why it was done or where it went to and that can't be audited.

If you want to do this you can just do this in any number of ways, as the fundamental requirement is that the incoming cash doesn't make it onto the books. Electronic funds are actually much worse than other approaches, as they will create a record. If Ares Small Arms wants to transfer a million nuyen to Ares Space without it being obvious they would be better off arranging for Joe's fueling to deliver 600,000 gallons of AV gas to their tank farm and Joe only billing them for 5000 gallons then sending them a million nuyen transfer.

If you try to explain this you get brain cancer and die, so don't.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cthulhudreams
post May 22 2009, 12:52 AM
Post #25


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,650
Joined: 21-July 07
Member No.: 12,328



And if you have OTP on cred sticks by god why don't you have them every where else.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 06:30 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.