Doing damage with an enhanced skeletal structure, Do harder bones really hit harder than clubs? Options

[Writer]

I have been thinking about the increase unarmed combat damage that Bone Density Augmentation and Bone Lacing provide. A club, which is typically hard, is a lever, a force multiplier. You would do more damage with a club than a fist of the same material. Yet, the two bone modifications I mentioned can provide up to S/2+3, which is right up there with a sword. Also, do cyberhands also cause Physical damage? Presumably, they are made of something stronger than standard bone. If they normally are not, they easily can be. I can see the modifications providing Physical damage, instead of Stun, though, I think that should really be the pervue of something like the martial arts maneuver Vicious Blow. I know how to cause Physical damage and I have no bone modifations. There comes a point when no matter how hard the bones are, the hardness reaches a point of diminishing returns in terms of how involved they are in causing damage.

Has anyone else been bothered by this?

(I don't know if this has been brought up before. I did some searching, but I found too much information to sort through. If there is another thread on this, just point me to it.)

[Meatbag]

*Le sigh*. Again with the realism bit, eh?

It's not about emulating physics - in a strictly realistic game, yeah, a metal club is better than a metal gauntlet, internal or otherwise.

BUT:

You don't pay Essence nor hideous amounts of cash to wield a club. For the amount Bone Lacing costs, it had best do something more than add armor - we have dermal plates, orthoskin and Cyberlimbs to add armor already.

A damage-adder seems reasonable.

If it honestly breaks your suspension of disbelief in the sci-fantasy Sixth World, simply disallow those and use the Kevlar and Ceramic Bone Lacing in Augmentation, which do not add damage.

[Zaranthan]

When you punch somebody, you have to hold back a bit and aim for soft places so you don't shatter your hand. If you have metal bones, you can punch a lot harder, as well as having a harder weapon to hit with.

[ElFenrir]

Ceramic Bone Lacing, right here in Augmentation, page 39:

Ceramic Bone Lacing confers a +2 Body Bonus for damage resistance tests and +2 Bonus to Impact Armor. ... Characters with Ceramic Bone Lacing inflict Physical damage with their unarmed blows, though kevlar bone lacing offers no such advantage.

Meatbag is correct on Kevlar, but incorrect on Ceramic. It actually is Str/2+2P damage, as shown on page 41.

It's arguably the best of the lot for price, Availability, and it's undetectability by MADs.

But yeah, it's a fair hit to essence and nuyen. If it didn't do anything else, it would be pretty...useless.

[Writer]

*Le sigh*. Again with the realism bit, eh?

It's not about emulating physics - in a strictly realistic game, yeah, a metal club is better than a metal gauntlet, internal or otherwise.

Actually, my concern is less about realism and more about relative scale. As I stated before, turning unarmed combat damage into Physical feels more appropriate, but the bonuses do not. Most of the hand weapons that confer increased damage, relative to standard unarmed combat, have either reach or edges. And if you look at the Sap, it does increased damage, but it is only Stun.

Orthoskin provides damage resistance, but no increased damage for roughly the same costs. Yes, it provides Armor, but I don't see this comparable to the increased DV of bone modifications. While Physical damage is more likely to be converted to Stun with higher armor ratings, you still take damage, and in the immediacy of the fight, damage is damage.

It isn't a game breaker for me. It just seemed a little out of whack.

[The Jake]

I say just get Titanium with Restricted Gear and in your fake SIN, say it was a prescribed treatment for Osteogenesis Imperfecta (brittle bones) or necessary from a horrible car accident.

- J.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Weirdly enough maybe not. I can't remember the show but they were measuring the impact from blows they got some marital artists a baseball player a boxer etc and they all hit a pressure sensor. The boxer beat everyone out even the baseball player with the bat. It was fairly disgusting watching the simulated impact on someone face. His reason for why he hit so hard, he put his ass into it.

On the game play side of things it puts it in the same range as big melee weapons without the AP. Seems balanced to me for a high essence, expensive piece of gear. I guess the only "worry" would be a phys add with this+buckets of critical strike+marital arts for increased DV. But hey to me that is more of a player issue than a game issue, go find a player that fits your style better if this would be a problem to you.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Actually, my concern is less about realism and more about relative scale. As I stated before, turning unarmed combat damage into Physical feels more appropriate, but the bonuses do not. Most of the hand weapons that confer increased damage, relative to standard unarmed combat, have either reach or edges. And if you look at the Sap, it does increased damage, but it is only Stun.

Orthoskin provides damage resistance, but no increased damage for roughly the same costs. Yes, it provides Armor, but I don't see this comparable to the increased DV of bone modifications. While Physical damage is more likely to be converted to Stun with higher armor ratings, you still take damage, and in the immediacy of the fight, damage is damage.

It isn't a game breaker for me. It just seemed a little out of whack.

Damage is damage, but unarmed damage is fairy weak sauce compared to guns unless you really twink it. Give them the +3 if they want it. The way I see it is orthoskin is for people who wont be punching people, dense bones is for people who will. Options are nice IMO.

[Writer]

... go find a player that fits your style better if this would be a problem to you.

<sigh> Yeah, I wish it was that easy. Between my work, wife, kids, me-time, and my friends work schedule, I can never seem to get a game off the ground. At this point I would grab any game that came my way.

By the way, I wasn't trying to bash the rules, I just wanted to get some feedback from the Dumpshock crew. Thanks!

[Writer]

Damage is damage, but unarmed damage is fairy weak sauce compared to guns unless you really twink it. Give them the +3 if they want it. The way I see it is orthoskin is for people who wont be punching people, dense bones is for people who will. Options are nice IMO.

Actually, I came up with a character that was a former combat engineer. I'm not sure if it was government military or corporate, but he was set up to take lots of damage with both Orthoskin and Bone Density Augmentation, and a Trauma Dampener. Not the perfect high speed shadowrunner, but I like my characters to fall into shadowrunning from somewhat ordinary lives.

As for unarmed combat being relatively weak, I get over this by watching the UFC fights. While they are not allowed to use every trick in the book, they do take quite a beating. The game implication here is that they are not getting many net hits, due to the comparative skill levels, and the DV is often reduced due to physical conditioning. Against Joe Average, however, they would probably get a handful of hits to increase DV, and the target's resistance test wouldn't be that high, so a strike would really knock Joe Average off his feet.

A Pro with Agility 5 and Skill 5 rolls 10 dice. If he wants, he could get -4 dice for +4 DV - I assume this works with unarmed combat as it does with firearms - and he still rolls 6 dice, netting 2 average hits. Joe average probably doesn't have Dodge, so he uses Reaction only, at 3, and might get 1 hit on defense. With Strength 5, DV starts at 3 increased by +4 to 7, with 1 net hit, the final DV is 8. A body of 3 nets 1 hit, and Joe Average takes 7 points of damage, which will probably knock him down. From there on, he gets -2 to his dice rolls, not that he would be counter attacking.

The problem shadowrunners come across is that the people they are fighting also know how to fight, are probably wearing armor, and are in better physical condition, so the combat takes longer. This is why I appreciate the Martial Arts Style rules, which allow you to Throw or Sweep easier, or Herding to help use the environment against an opponent.