Shadowrun Tropes Options

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Ah ha, so this is the game we're going to go at. No thanks.

Sorry you took offense.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Delicious and moist cats, mon ami. Delicious and moist...

Anyway, this cat is great! It's so delicious and moist.

[Stahlseele]

No.

All they do is weaken my muscles a bit for a little while. But I sit in a chair all the time anyway, so I'm not in the best physical condition anyway.

Interesting O.o
that's the first time i have heard about that as a kind of symptome for an allergy o.O

[Fuchs]

(edit, wrong thread)

[Draco18s]

Interesting O.o
that's the first time i have heard about that as a kind of symptome for an allergy o.O

*Shrug* it's all I recall about it. Granted, I was tested like 15 years ago and wasn't allowed to eat cashews for a while.

[Ancient History]

I want to thank you all for helping me realize my dream of infecting the forum with trope-awareness. I wasn't distracting you from buying Mission adventures or anything. Honest.

[Stahlseele]

I was acutely aware of Tropes before, thank you very much . .
That page is worse at letting me work than this board <.<
But not quite as bad as entering anything from marvel/DC universe into wikipedia ^^
At least, you people seem to sleep or do other stuff from time to time . .

[KCKitsune]

At least, you people seem to sleep or do other stuff from time to time . .

Sleep?

What's that?

I know I've heard the term tossed about by the "normal" people, but honestly... I don't get it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Darkeus]

I've noticed that a lot of Shadowrun players tend to have the "I gotta win and be the best character!" attitude. When you are making builds that just do to much and when you are actively trying to find ways to Min/Max a character it is just not fun in my opinion. It does seem to be a hold over from the wargaming days. Seriously, Shadowrun has a very basic format that is really just Dungeons disguised as modern buildings. You plan an attack, you go in, kill things and take their stuff and then sell the loot.

Very old Skool.. I think the problem that alot of veterans have with Fourth edition is the fact that even though the basic wargaming setup is still there, the focus of the game has changed a little. Now they want you to maintain contacts, cater more to the group dynamic, entertain the idea of being a social PC. Things have changed, I say that is good.

Just play the game and help make a story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, Shadowrun uses a lot of tropes (Not as many as RIFTS! Man I have had too much fun on tvtropes.) The fun of the setting is to make believable characters that can interact with it. Not Mr. Lucky which really relies on how nice your GM is (I would enforce the optional Long Shot Rule where every -3 modifier creates a -1 modifier with the caveat that the dice cannot be reduced by one. There, you keep the ability to do impossible things but it doesn't mean you will succeed, just like it should be.) Anyway, pornomancers and all of these so-called "uber" builds are not fun for the group (Unless they like that kind of thing).

You win when the group has fun with the story, not when you argue and twink rules all night long. I hate to say it but the way some people on this board try to dissect the rules, I would not play in your group.. If I wanted to examine and dissect rules, I would go to school.

[Glyph]

There are lots of ways to min/max characters, but Mr. Lucky and the pornomancer are hardly min-maxed - they are only maxed. They are viable builds, but they would be more viable if they didn't sacrifice so much for their main schtick.

Shadowrun is more complex than a wargame. Shadowrunners need to be able to utilize stealth, to gather information, to deal with networks of underworld contacts that they need in order to continue their existence between the cracks of the information society. You are hardly limited to shooting things. You can be an information broker, a high stakes negotiator, a getaway driver, an unlicensed medic, a covert infiltration specialist, a social chameleon and master of disguise, or a million other roles.

You can get unrealistic characters by being too hyper-focused - the character should be someone who could plausibly have survived on their own before meeting the group. But you can also make unrealistic characters by getting too creative with the open build system, making a complex, three-dimensional character but forgetting the premise of the game. Namely, that you are putting together someone who works under the table doing dangerous, demanding work, with a group of fellow professionals. A character should be able to survive such a pressure-cooker environment, and have skills that would make a Johnson hire him, and make a team of hardened mercenary-minded people want to work with him.

It might be a blast playing a deaf-mute former BTL addict who has an assault rifle he barely knows how to shoot, but unless the campaign is full of similar quirky concepts, you will either quickly suffer a messy, violent end, or you will be forcing the GM and players to metagame for the sake of your "roleplaying". Which is hardly fair.

[Darkeus]

There are lots of ways to min/max characters, but Mr. Lucky and the pornomancer are hardly min-maxed - they are only maxed. They are viable builds, but they would be more viable if they didn't sacrifice so much for their main schtick.

Shadowrun is more complex than a wargame. Shadowrunners need to be able to utilize stealth, to gather information, to deal with networks of underworld contacts that they need in order to continue their existence between the cracks of the information society. You are hardly limited to shooting things. You can be an information broker, a high stakes negotiator, a getaway driver, an unlicensed medic, a covert infiltration specialist, a social chameleon and master of disguise, or a million other roles.

You can get unrealistic characters by being too hyper-focused - the character should be someone who could plausibly have survived on their own before meeting the group. But you can also make unrealistic characters by getting too creative with the open build system, making a complex, three-dimensional character but forgetting the premise of the game. Namely, that you are putting together someone who works under the table doing dangerous, demanding work, with a group of fellow professionals. A character should be able to survive such a pressure-cooker environment, and have skills that would make a Johnson hire him, and make a team of hardened mercenary-minded people want to work with him.

It might be a blast playing a deaf-mute former BTL addict who has an assault rifle he barely knows how to shoot, but unless the campaign is full of similar quirky concepts, you will either quickly suffer a messy, violent end, or you will be forcing the GM and players to metagame for the sake of your "roleplaying". Which is hardly fair.

All of the bolded parts in the quote I agree with you.

I don't even think those "uber" builds are viable at all but I am not trying to argue that at all.

I was also saying that you are right, Shadowrun has become way more complex as then a war game.. I just said it has certain wargaming roots. I mean even the website this Thread came from calls Shadowrun Dungeon Punk.. It is true.

You say it much better than I do in the last sentence. The GM has to grab hold of thereigns and say, "That character is not going to work." Shadowrun problems solved..

Or to sum it up: Just have fun and PLAY THE GAME. Seriously, the rules are just a guideline to play the game, they really don't need all of the dissecting and tweaking and powergaming.

[paws2sky]

Just curious... Am I the only person here that found TVtropes to be horribly uninteresting?

-paws

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Or to sum it up: Just have fun and PLAY THE GAME. Seriously, the rules are just a guideline to play the game, they really don't need all of the dissecting and tweaking and powergaming.

They do if that's what's fun for you. And, frankly, the rules are really only guidelines if you're gaming with a regular group. In today's world of meetups and PbP, it's becoming (thankfully) less and less true.

[Draco18s]

Just curious... Am I the only person here that found TVtropes to be horribly uninteresting?

-paws

The more pages I read the less I find intriguing. I can generally thus limit myself to only about 3 pages at a time, or less now.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I was going to respond to the metagame statement but instead...

I agree the TV tropes are pretty bland. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Some are better than others. What's really the time-suck is if you start reading the examples.

[Darkeus]

They do if that's what's fun for you. And, frankly, the rules are really only guidelines if you're gaming with a regular group. In today's world of meetups and PbP, it's becoming (thankfully) less and less true.

Rules are always guidelines. Rule #0: If the rules get in the way of the story on fun, kill it on the spot or change it or GM fiat or whatever. Wait, I think we are kind of agreeing..

I did say though that if twinking the rules and dissecting rules and all that makes you and your group happy then so be it.. That is not how is goes in my game though. I love rules but I don't try to take advantage of every loophole I see. I rather play an interesting character rather than a "uber" build.

YCMV

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Rules are always guidelines.

This is something I sincerely hope the RPG community moves away from.

I rather play an interesting character rather than a "uber" build.

I really want to know why you think these are mutually exclusive.

[Chrysalis]

One of the problems I have with TV tropes is that they are a website of memes. TVtropes.org is a suppository for mind viruses that keep spreading from one person to the other. You do know that the more you read, the more likely are you use the memes in writing creating further swaths of mediocrity.

I recommend stop reading now before I start describing disturbing images of Damien Knight, Nadja's nipples and a draconic dildo and you actually start imagining your favourite object of lust into the mix.

[HappyDaze]

Just curious... Am I the only person here that found TVtropes to be horribly uninteresting?

-paws

No, you're not alone on this one.

[Glyph]

I agree on the "loophole" thing. I tend to differentiate logical min-maxing (sammie with Agility: 5, muscle toner: 4 with the restricted gear quality, ranged weapon skill of 6 with specialization, smartlink, and reflex recorder, for example) and out-and-out exploitation of the rules (bloodzilla, weapons sprites using diagnostics on smartlinks, etc.). Note that even the former should be consistent with the character - it's something I would do for, say, a former company man, but not for a smuggler from the bayou.


I disagree about the "rules as guidelines" thing. The GM should be able to make on the spot rulings when a rule is ambiguous, and use whatever house rules are appropriate to his or her campaign. But the rules should still be fairly and consistently applied. The rules allow players to quantify the abilities of their characters, resolve the actions of their characters, and allow a truly random element to enter the game. "Story" is far less important - if the players can't affect the outcome, the GM is railroading.

[Draco18s]

draconic dildo

Just FYI: those exist.

And by two different companies in 8 or 10 different designs and at least 3 sizes (from "normal" to "the size of your arm").

[Darkeus]

I really want to know why you think these are mutually exclusive.

"Uber" builds make for ridiculous Min/Max episodes. I am sorry but as GM, I do not want to have to plan Whole runs out around the fact that I have a pornomancer and Mr. Lucky in my team. They take too much attention for themselves. Do you like when the hacker (or decker) takes up all of the game session time just to resolve his stuff? It would feel the same way if the pornomancer took all of the fun out of the game because she just walks up and seduces everybody and the other characters just go 'Hell, I am just going back home. Call me when your done here." It isn't fun when ANY character outshines all the rest. Making a strong character is awesome. Making a strong character just to be a munchkin, not so cool. I just think playing more believable characters makes the game a lot more enjoyable. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

On the other hand, if your group loves to power game then so be it, have fun.. In the end, have fun with Shadowrun anyway you choose. I just don't want those types of characters in my campaigns and I don't play them as a matter of principle.

I agree on the "loophole" thing. I tend to differentiate logical min-maxing (sammie with Agility: 5, muscle toner: 4 with the restricted gear quality, ranged weapon skill of 6 with specialization, smartlink, and reflex recorder, for example) and out-and-out exploitation of the rules (bloodzilla, weapons sprites using diagnostics on smartlinks, etc.). Note that even the former should be consistent with the character - it's something I would do for, say, a former company man, but not for a smuggler from the bayou.


I disagree about the "rules as guidelines" thing. The GM should be able to make on the spot rulings when a rule is ambiguous, and use whatever house rules are appropriate to his or her campaign. But the rules should still be fairly and consistently applied. The rules allow players to quantify the abilities of their characters, resolve the actions of their characters, and allow a truly random element to enter the game. "Story" is far less important - if the players can't affect the outcome, the GM is railroading.

I think people are misunderstanding me here. This is what I am actually trying to say. What I have bolded in your quotes is what I have been saying all along. The GM has the right to make rulings on any rule in the game. I am not saying kill every rule and play it that way. I don't like free-form personally. I also don't like rules light.

What is important is that the group is having fun and contributing to the story. The story is not what the GM wants to tell but what the WHOLE group sits down to tell during a session. The rules are there for a reason but we all know that EVERY system has its quirks and ambiguous rules. The GM has the right to make a ruling on this, of course with the player's approval as well. The rules also form the "Guideline" of how to play the game, but the devs are not perfect and everything may not work exactly right for your group. Change the rule then, not drop the rules altogether.

I hope that clears things up a bit.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Chrysalis]

Just FYI: those exist.

And by two different companies in 8 or 10 different designs and at least 3 sizes (from "normal" to "the size of your arm").

You do know now I will have to ask: which of the 8-10 designs did you find to be the best? And was there one you can use an endoscope with.

[Draco18s]

You do know now I will have to ask: which of the 8-10 designs did you find to be the best? And was there one you can use an endoscope with.

Question 1: Maybe. But I think I'll keep that answer private.

Question 2: Yes. Though you'd have to have your own endoscope and you're on your own making it work, as it isn't intended for such.