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> martial arts descrepencies, not understanding the martial ats rules.
limejello10512
post May 21 2009, 07:12 PM
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martial arts specialization hey a martial arts style counts as a specialization right? Or do I have to purchase a specialization to get the +2?
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Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 07:15 PM
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You can specialize in martial arts, and you can take the martial arts quality. You don't have to take one to get the other. One does not count as the other. They do work well together, however.
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The Jake
post May 21 2009, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 21 2009, 07:15 PM) *
You can specialize in martial arts, and you can take the martial arts quality. You don't have to take one to get the other. One does not count as the other. They do work well together, however.

Are you saying the specialisations are cumulative?

- J.
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Ancient History
post May 21 2009, 09:14 PM
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It's addressed in the rules on martial arts in Arsenal. Basically, there's nothing stopping you from taking Unarmed Combat X (Boxing +2) and the Martial Arts (Boxing) quality - or the Martial Arts (Kung Fu) quality, Martial Arts (Judo), etc. You don't need to take the quality to take the specialization, and you don't need to take the specialization to take the quality. The bonus from specialization and the bonus from whatever qualities you have stack as any other bonuses would. The only thing that's different is that the specialization may not apply in all instances.

Compare:

Character A has Unarmed Combat 3. This character is a generally competent unarmed combatant.

Character B has Unarmed Combat 3 (Boxing +2). The character is generally competent but is more focused in boxing style of fighting.

Character C has Unarmed Combat 3 and Martial Arts (Boxing, 1). The character is competent, and has undergone specific, rigorous training in an aspect of boxing.

Character D has Unarmed Combat 3 (Boxing +2) and Martial Arts (Boxing, 1). The character is competent, focused in the boxing style and techniques, and has undergone specific, rigorous training in an aspect of boxing.

Character E has Unarmed Combat 3 (Savate +2) and Martial Arts (Boxing, 1). The character is competent, focused in the savate style and techniques, and has undergone specific, rigorous training in an aspect of boxing.
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The Jake
post May 21 2009, 10:30 PM
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Thanks AH for the clarification. I have read the rules in Arsenal - many times in fact. Unless it has been errata'd since, I personally found it vague.

Cheers

- J.
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Larme
post May 21 2009, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ May 21 2009, 03:50 PM) *
Are you saying the specialisations are cumulative?

- J.


The specialization is cumulative with any dice you get from the Martial Arts quality, if they match up. If you take Unarmed Combat (Style X +2), and then you take the quality Martial Arts (Style X), and select the advantage that gives you +1 to attack rolls, you'd have +3 to attack rolls total. What you couldn't do is specialize martial arts in Style X and Style Y, then add +4 arguing that you're using both at once.
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Writer
post May 22 2009, 12:16 AM
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I don't see where the martial arts specialization must specify the style. The Unarmed Combat specializations are listed as such: Cyber-Implants, Martial Arts, Subdual Combat, Parrying. If I have to choose one specific type of martial art, then the implication is that I must choose one specific type of cyber implant. If that is the case, does Blades (Cyber-Implant Blades) require a specific type of cyber-implant blade to be specified? Then, would that imply that Blades (Knives) also would require specification?

Please note, I completely see the logic of specializing in Martial Arts Styles, but I don't see where the game requires it.

And, a further note to Larme. You couldn't specialize martial arts in Style X and Style Y, because Unarmed Combat only gets one specialization.
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Larme
post May 22 2009, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE (Writer @ May 21 2009, 08:16 PM) *
I don't see where the martial arts specialization must specify the style. The Unarmed Combat specializations are listed as such: Cyber-Implants, Martial Arts, Subdual Combat, Parrying. If I have to choose one specific type of martial art, then the implication is that I must choose one specific type of cyber implant. If that is the case, does Blades (Cyber-Implant Blades) require a specific type of cyber-implant blade to be specified? Then, would that imply that Blades (Knives) also would require specification?

Please note, I completely see the logic of specializing in Martial Arts Styles, but I don't see where the game requires it.

And, a further note to Larme. You couldn't specialize martial arts in Style X and Style Y, because Unarmed Combat only gets one specialization.


Hm, you might be right. I dunno, fuck it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)
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Glyph
post May 22 2009, 05:24 AM
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I'm ambivalent about the martial arts specialization.

First, unarmed combat is martial arts. It's like having a specialization of "sharp" for edged weapons. Second, it makes specializations such as blocking redundant. Take a martial art like, say, hapkido. It involves striking, blocking, joint locks - what aspect of unarmed combat would it not apply to? I think a specialization called "striking" would make a lot more sense, and be a lot more consistent with the other specializations.

But on the other hand, someone taking an actual quality to enhance a skill should, maybe, get a specialization that has a bit more scope than usual. Also, someone specializing in, say, knives gets to use that specialization for striking with them, parrying with them, and full defense. And you know that knives are pretty much going to be that specialist's weapon of choice. Letting a martial artist only get his bonus for striking would make him a lot more limited than knife guy.
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Method
post May 22 2009, 06:08 AM
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QUOTE (Larme @ May 21 2009, 08:26 PM) *
Hm, you might be right. I dunno, fuck it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

Possibly the best response to any DS post ever!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Writer
post May 22 2009, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ May 22 2009, 12:24 AM) *
First, unarmed combat is martial arts.


When you put it that way, (and why I would ever think otherwise, I don't know,) The Martial Arts specializations really SHOULD be Martial Arts Style. Of course, the player could choose Mixed Martial Art (or Krav Maga, or something similar) which handles just about everything. Now that I think about it, I don't think I would allow that type of specialization. I believe it should only be used if you do not have access to Arsenal. Or, you could argue that whenever you receive a bonus from your Martial Art Quality, you get the +2 from specialization, also.

For example: You have Unarmed Combat (Boxing), which represents the character's knowhow in a fight, with a focus in footwork and punches. However, unless the character also has Martial Arts Quality (Boxing) at least level 1, and, say +1 DV, then they would not receive the bonuse +2. When they increase their DV (and when would they not, unless RP dictates they must strike some other way than punching), then they would receive the +2 bonus for specialization. Maybe they would also get the bonus when they were defending, as it is potentially one of Boxing's bonuses. I am not sure how I would call that. It gets messier when you have non-combat bonuses, such as Ninjitsu's Infiltration bonus.

Hmmm ... Arsenal has a couple paragraphs on the Martial Arts Specialization (pg 156). Larme, I would like your opinion on what it says. It seems to imply that the specialization covers a single style that the character has chosen. I would say it would apply to any and all Styles that the character has chosen, but that could be debated. You would still only have one specialization for the skill, but how broadly it applies is questionable.
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Apathy
post May 22 2009, 04:54 PM
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That's always been my beef with the Martial Arts rules, too. In my mind, specializations of Unarmed should be general categories like Striking, Grappling/Subduing, etc. What marital art you take in order to become proficient in Unarmed Combat is just fluff. So a boxer would have Unarmed(Striking +2), and a BJJ grappler would have Unarmed(Grappling+2). Balanced stiles like MMA would just lack a specialization.
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Writer
post May 22 2009, 09:10 PM
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Player: "I want my Unarmed Combat specialization to be 'Hurting People'."
GM: "I already have that in real life."
Player: "On second thought, I might just choose Striking."
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psychophipps
post May 22 2009, 10:12 PM
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I still like my ganger's specialization of "Manhandling"...it's fun to just about always say the specialization every time you use the skill. "I get my mitts on this chump and manhandle him to the ground so I can give him a whack with my hatchet and/or axe..." seems to be pretty standard.

And you aren't lone in your confusion. The MA rules for 4th are pretty cack and severely lacking in anything remotely recognizable as play balance.
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Method
post May 23 2009, 04:33 AM
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I think its important to remember that the verbiage in the BBB is written such that the core rules can be use without any of the expanded rule books. Introducing the idea of styles and then saying "To find out more buy Arsenal" would just piss people off more than the vagaries in the current rules.

QUOTE (Apathy @ May 22 2009, 09:54 AM) *
In my mind, specializations of Unarmed should be general categories like Striking, Grappling/Subduing, etc.
This is a good compromise if you ask me.

QUOTE (Writer @ May 22 2009, 02:10 PM) *
Player: "I want my Unarmed Combat specialization to be 'Hurting People'."
My players designed a custom martial art in SR3 we dubbed "Spec Ops Killin" Big fun.
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