System Crash (or maybe clash!) Options

[Prototype]

After reviewing the D20 Shadowrun thread I was thinking about the inherent flaws in the SR system... which I'm sure we're all aware of! And obviously D20 is filled with flaws as well.

Have any of you ever played the Hero system? I reckon it'd be ace for SR, it's definitely the best system I've ever used and despite appearing complicated is actually beautifully put together! It certainly handles autofire better than SR and much more accurately models combat in my opinion.

Anyone got any other systems they use for SR?

[moosegod]

The Shadowrun system.

The system IS the game.

[bwdemon]

I've been a big fan of the Hero System since the mid 80's. In fact, it's probably my favorite system for every genre. I played a Cyber Hero game once, but never threw in the magic aspect. It'd be easy enough to do, I guess. And yes, Hero would do SR much better than SR handles itself now. The SR drain mechanic would take a little work, though. Maybe all spellcasters have to take a side effect from their spells equal to active points/2 in an ego attack? I dunno...

[Prototype]

Yeah, I was thinking some sort of side effect type stuff... although by giving spells an END cost that might be the best way of doing drain... by draining you!

I think the HERO system would out-Shadowrun Shadowrun, I think it'd do most games better than whatever system they currently use!

Still, I like the SR system and play it, but the flaws bug me occasionally!

[Munchkinslayer]

[Arethusa]

Can you post an explnation of how Hero handles combat and autofire? I've been looking for a system that handles it both realistically and elegantly, and my lack of experience with various systems (and RPGs in general) really shows through here. You've got me curious, though.

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm.

Hero combat

Basic Die mechanic:
2d6 for skills and hitting, multiple d6 for damage and power effects.
or was that 3d6?

Hitting
OVC (Offensive combat value) vs DCV (Defensive Combat Value)
You subtract one from the other, add modifiers (range, etc) and then roll 2d6 to hit.

Speed
Everyone has a 'speed' that determines how much they act in a round, the speeds are staggered over the round to produce a somewhat realisitc 'slow guy goes in the middle' effect, rather than 'slow guy goes last'.

expect unaugmented guys to have speed 3, with the wired guys having 5-8 (depends on how you handle wires).

Damage
You have two damage stats Body and Stun.
Getting shot tends to lose you a lot of both.
Getting hit by a club tends to make you lose stun (and maybe body, depends).
You can be 'stunned' if you take a lot of stun damage at once.
Getting stun back is pretty easy (around 1 minute of rest does it). Getting body back is harder.
Extra rules available for bleeding and stuff.

autofire, explosions, and other good stuff
I don't remember the autofire rules off the top of my head.
There is a power effect called 'explosion' that lets you model grenades and stuff (works ok).
Plus rules that let you do things like poison gas, etc.

ware and magic
Modeling magic a cyberware exactly as presented in SR using only the hero rules might be kinda difficult, a SR to hero conversion where you then use Hero rules might be the fastest way to get a game running.

[kevyn668]

Am I the only one that likes SR because its not D20? I love D&D! Hell, I was raised on it, been playin since before I could count all the sides on a D20 (dodecahedron?). I played all the versions of D&D and while I still like them I like the fact that SR is a different system. Its a nice change of pace. I don't see anyone asking for a D6 D&D, so why do we need a D20 SR??

[moosegod]

If you want the simple, cruel answer...

Some people are just too lazy to learn an new system

[Siege]

Pick a mechanic system you like and drop the genre/theme across the top.

I don't know of a realistic autofire system -- as realism tends to vary from person to person.

-Siege

[mfb]

yeah. it took me a while, but i think i've finally given up my search for 'the perfect system'.

although, possibly, it could be because i've found it. Deadlands r0xx0rs j00r s0xx0rs.

[Siege]

The CP2020 system is perhaps the only one I didn't have major objections to right off the bat. :grinbig:

Deadlands has a neat genre, but I'm not that familiar with the mechanic system.

-Siege

[mfb]

the original system--not the d20 conversion--was brilliant. complex, but brilliant. like, say, the interaction of skills and attributes? you roll a number of dice equal to your skill, but the die type is determined by your attribute. on the other hand, i'm enchanted by the possibility of making a one-hit kill against a target standing on the moon, in d20.

[Birdy]

@moosedeity

I have learned and played quite a few game systems in my life and aside from (A)D&D the Shadowrun system easily is the worst of the lot, beating even RIFTS.

If not for the difficulties in transfering the magic effects we would all be better of with a system like FUZION, HERO or GURPS.

Michael

[moosegod]

*looks at Birdy in pure shock*
*sputters*

I have do admit I haven't extensively used HERO, and am unfamilar with FUZION, but GURPS magic system stinks.

It really does.

And Palladium's system cannot hold a candle to any other system. Even d20 beats it out pretty thoroughly.

[mfb]

bah! rifts was horrible! the only thing i vaguely liked was the alignment system.

[Siege]

[Birdy]

@Siege

Looked at it (free version) Still lot's of work to simulate Shadowrun-style drain. Add in the work to transfer the races and it's actually not worse the efforts for the rather few SR games I still play


@moosedeity

What's the problem with GURPS magic? It keeps the magic weak and controlable. Just the way I like it. Add the fact that GURPS makes playing non-humans resonably costly and you might be abel(edit/better: it might get clearer for others/you why) to understand why I'd prefer GURPS as a game mechanik when I am forced (no other game, nothing in telly/cinema) to play Shadowrun


Michael (Civilised humans speak german of french! ;-) )

[moosegod]

Ok, I'll rack your opinion up to personal choice and excised flame

This post has been edited by moosegod: Jan 18 2004, 09:24 PM

[Crusher Bob]

For a considerably more realistic feel you ca try Millenniums End (or the ME super-light used in The Babylon Project). The system used in Conspiracy X is also worth a look too. Some people also find DP9s system Silhouette (sp?) ok too (think you can get a free copy of the system off their web site).

[hobgoblin]

personaly i am of the opinion that the system is part of the game, change to d20 and you have d&d with guns and cyberware...

[Namergon]

[bwdemon]

The Hero system uses 3d6 to determine success.

In combat, the target's DCV is subtracted from the attacker's OCV and the difference is added to 11. You need to roll the resulting number or less to hit. So if I have a DCV of 5 and someone attacks me with an OCV of 7, he'll hit me on 13 or less. Modifiers of all sorts are included, as are hit locations (should you wish to use them).

For skill or attribute checks, a roll is given a base difficulty which is added to or subtracted from the character's skill chance. So if I have a 14 or less base chance to know how to defuse a bomb, but this bomb is a little more complicated than the average one, I'd need a 13 or less to succeed. If other factors were intruding on my efforts (say, combat raging around me and even at me) my modifier would be higher and it'd be easier to hit me while I worked.

As Namergon mentioned, chargen in Hero is kind of a nightmare. If you aren't happy doing basic math and accounting, you won't like the Hero system. It also may take you a while to learn how to piece together the powers and modifiers you need to achieve the effect you want. It's a complicated system, no doubt, but it is probably the best system available.

The Hero system handles autofire in a way that makes the first shot as accurate as possible. If you hit, you hit with at least one bullet. For every 2 points you made your roll by after that, you hit with another bullet. So, if you hit by 5, you'd hit with three bullets. If you hit by 6, you'd still only hit with three bullets. Recoil compensation is easily added to any weapon, but I won't go into the mechanics of it. Also, each bullet is applied separately to defenses. Which is nice.

For a quick conversion of Hero to SR3 for autofire, I offer my personal SR3 house rule for autofire:

1. Dice Used = standard SR3.
2. TN = standard SR3 TN for firing, but without recoil penalties.
3. First success = 1st bullet hit.
4. Additional successes tell how many more rounds hit, as per recoil effects.
4a. 1 success/round for compensated rounds.
4b. 2 successes/round for uncompensated rounds.
4c. 3 successes/round for uncompensated rounds from heavy weapons.
4d. compensated rounds are accounted for before uncompensated rounds.
5. Each successful round hitting adds one to the power of the attack.
6. Damage Code is raised through standard staging rules.
6a. Damage Code is not raised once/3 bullets as in SR3's autofire rules.
7. Dodging TN is per standard SR3 rules.

So you have a base TN of 6 to hit a target and you're using an SMG with a damage code of 6M and 1pt of recoil compensation. You fire ten shots, roll 12 dice, and get two 6s. The first "6" means your first shot hit. The second "6" means your second shot hit. You have no more successes, so no more shots hit. Your base damage is 7S. If you'd gotten 3 successes, the damage would still be 7S (you didn't have the 4th success needed to hit with an uncompensated round). If you'd gotten 1 success, the damage would be 6M. It's simple, it's quick, and it's more realistic than SR3s horrible autofire mechanic.

[Austere Emancipa...]

That's one good way of house ruling autofire. Others include (but are not limited to): TN is without the recoil modifier, with the highest number rolled determining the amount of bullets hit (can't remember the details, it gets brought up in all the House Ruling Autofire threads -- perhaps makes autofire a bit more a question of luck than the above, and might also make it more deadly); breaking up autofire into short bursts (as canon autofire, except 10 rounds of FA is always broken up into 3 bursts of 3, 3 and 4); breaking up autofire into single rounds (self-explanatory); and the various peripheral rules (including my max-recoil and max-RoF rules, for example).

[Namergon]

bwdemon:

in your house rules, I'm not sure I understood about the Dogde point (7). Do you mean that in your example, the target will have a Dodge TN modifier of +3 (10 rounds), or +0 (only two rounds hit) ?