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 Restoring Essence, Should it exist within a game? |
 Jan 19 2004, 05:42 PM
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#26
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437  |
As long as the Essence lost wasn't from Cyber Implants, I'd allow Essence to be regained.
Sphynx |
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Jan 19 2004, 06:01 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Touché. :) I wrote without fully thinking through the consequences of what I implying... I totally agree with what Siege is saying in his last post. |
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Jan 19 2004, 07:52 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
Just as a side, if one were to fully heal and restore Mercurial, wouldn't that sort of take away the very things that make her music so powerful? I mean, in a way, the inspiration for her songs comes from those tragic circumstances in her life and that sense of loss that she deals with every day. If you were to take that loss away, you would end up taking away the very heart and soul of her music.
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Jan 19 2004, 08:13 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
In her case, definitely possible. If it could even be done, she would have to choose whether she would want it done. (Been thinking about that.)
But she was not the first one off that doctor's scalpel, I'm virtually certain most of the others also would not have chosen to become what they were made into, and I truly doubt many (if any) of them managed to find outlets as she did. |
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Jan 19 2004, 08:20 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
It'd be like giving a country musician their dog back. :rotfl: |
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Jan 19 2004, 09:46 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
[wince] :D [/wince]
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Jan 19 2004, 09:58 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
There's an argument to allow people to simply gain essence without losing old cyberware. I'll lay down the premises of that argument.
1. Shadowrun is about having fun. 2. For many if not most people, a lot of that fun comes in the form of working together with others in the group to solve one or more problems, Ie complete a run. 3. To be able to contribute, your existence must allow the group to do things it could not do before or do things better than someone else. This could be anything - It could be talking, it could be fighting, it could be decking, it could be anything. It could also include being as good as another character at some schtick and allowing the group to take on bigger challenges of that type, Ie Being the second street samurai in the group and contributing more firepower. 4. All characters ultimately fall into one of two categories - Karma-based and Nuyen-based. 5. Karma-based characters power primairily is rests on their raw skills, attributes, and/or magic. Adepts, otaku, full mages, and characters like the Weapons Expert in the book fall into this category. That isn't to say all characters don't benefit from karma - But these characters primairily define their capabilities based on their karma. 6. For those characters, there's essentially no absolute limit to their power. Adepts and full mages can initiate forever to any level they want, otaku can submerge, and weapons expert-type characters can improve their skills into infinity. 7. Nuyen-baesd characters power rests primairily on stuff they can buy. This includes deckers, rigger, and street samurai. Deckers can always buy or make a bigger, better deck, a rigger can always find a better vehicle or a new drone, and street samurai...er...Well, they can become cyberzombies and suck ass. That is the problem. The street samurai, the character who tries to kick ass based on getting more and more cyberware, has a power cap. Once he gets tricked out on deltaware, he either becomes a cyberzombie(And be essentially forced to totally change his character)...or he stops advancing nuyenly. Part of the beauty of Shadowrun is that it is reasonably well balanced. Sure, there's some screw ups(It can be difficult to integrate Riggers into open combats without them overshadowing the other characters), but as a general rule it's good. You can make pretty much whatever character you like and contribute to the group so long as you make an effort to be able to. The problem is, the street samurai, the guy who tricks himself out with wired reflexes, dermal sheathes and smart links to keep up with the magic adepts throw down and the vehicles a Rigger can pull out of his ass, stops advancing how he wants to up to a point. That is WRONG. Any other character concept can continually advance without fucking up their characters personality. A Rigger doesn't need to become some sort of uber-rigger who speaks only in machine in order to use a bunch of drones and the only people who know how to make you a machine live in the heart of Cambodia and require you sacrifice your first born son in order to learn their secrets. A Decker doesn't need to implant an AI into his brain in order to use high-end programs and decks and the only people that can implant AIs are True AIs and the only way to get one to help you is to defeat another AI in open combat and prove it to them and you have to do it on a Turtle machine. An Adept doesn't need to kick the ass of the worlds greatest adept in order to be allowed to Init more than 10 times and he must do it with one hand tied behind his back. In order for a street samurai to continue to get more cyberware, he has to become a cyberzombie and become an inhuman monster that gets penalties out the ass. Who sees the problem? Sure, the street samurai doesn't get WORSE. But when the Mages are abe to thrown down Force 12 spells of whatever kind they can imagine, the adept is throwing 20+ dice on whatever tests he decides to be good at, and the Rigger has enough artillery on his drones to take over a small country...What's the Samurai doing? He's still shooting his Ares Alpha, which probably isn't any more tricked out than when he first got it, maybe he fires mini-IPE grenades and APDS rounds now instead of mini-offensive grenades and ex-explosive rounds. Maybe he's using a custom gun from the CC now. Few ways to go about it. A. Create new, high-priced high-effectiveness cyberware(But not neccessairily high-essence). Doesn't require any setting changes really, just this new stuff is on the street and gives sammys something new to shoot for. It's not a perfect solution as it would require you think up more and more things as time went on. B. Create new, higher-grade cyberware that gets to be so good it doesn't lower your essence at all. This requires something of a paradigm shift in how SR deals with that sort of thing as canon says Delta is a good as it gets and the last thign we want is Epsilon Clinics that are even MORE secretive and require you to get tentacle raped to get the cyberware isntalled. C. Let characters buy back essence with Karma WITHOUT uninstalling stuff. Again, a paradigm shift. The usefulness of beta and deltaware would be significantly downgraded, perhaps all of the higher-grade stuff could go the way of the dodo. My gut says to let people buy back essence at the same costs as a Mage that initiates, but if you can initiate, the costs are cumulative for balance reasons(IE Grade 3 initiate want to buy back a point of Essence, pay for Grade 4, if he initiates again he pays as if for Grade 5), but I haven't thought that through much D. Just start a new game before it gets to this point. No explanation needed. I'd think these solutions over myself, but my current project is creating a new vehicle creation system that is flexible and balanced. Maybe someone else out there with an excessive amount of time could work on one of these possible solutions or think up another one. |
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Jan 19 2004, 10:15 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Just one question, Modesitt (is that name from the author btw?):
I'd buy that for the first three you mentioned, no argument ... but then you included the very mundane Weapons Expert as among those who have no absolute limit. Yet it would seem to me that the Street Samurai has precisely the same limits in that sense that the Weapons Expert does, as well as having precisely the same Essence limit. Do you see the Street Samurai as somehow less skills-based than the Weapons Expert? and if so, why? (If it's just the 'ware that causes you to make that distinction, what's to say the Weapons Expert couldn't equally trick themself out with 'ware, and still be a Weapons Expert?) |
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Jan 19 2004, 11:50 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Mercurial would have to want to get the Essence- therapy being discussed. Even if she got the body fixed, let's face it, emotional scars are a helluva lot harder to find and fix than the dagger some girl left in your heart. -Siege |
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Jan 19 2004, 11:51 PM
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#35
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
Modesitt, Nice analysis! Good description of the problem and your proposed solutions. An alternate solution is to not have the runners get so much money. With less money the Samurai aren't getting to Betaware so quickly.
In our campaign we limit the Karma awards and the Nuyen awards so that Magicians and Samurai both have things to look forward to. We may actually overdo it, because our Samuri still don't have much Beta stuff by the time the magicians are getting up to around 300 earned Karma (about 800 hours of roleplaying). Also, I feel our rate of pay wouldn't keep a rigger very happy, due to his cost of drone replacements. |
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Jan 19 2004, 11:54 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I think you have to look at how the archtypes are assembled: The "Street Samurai" puts more priority into Money so he can trick himself out with the latest in cyber-toys but has less of a focus on Skills. The "Weapon Specialist" has a higher priority in Skills, with less of a focus on Money and related gadgets, gizmos and toys. Now, once these two concepts hit the game, you will probably see the difference even out as the Samurai spends karma on skills to develop himself while the Weapon Spec will be spending money on herself and her toys (while still having access to Karma for skills if she so chooses). -Siege |
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Jan 19 2004, 11:59 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Talia: (sorry, was late seing your post)
What are the ramifications of having essence holes? Besides magical healing, not much. So if your rank-and-file walk around with Essence holes, odds are they'll never notice or complain about it. From a role-playing aspect, how many people really understand what their "Essence" is and how it affects their daily lives? Regaining essence isn't cheap -- depending on your interpretation of the concept. However, while a corp could afford to invest that kind of money, there just isn't any need to by game canon. It's not like Empathy or Humanity in CP. -Siege |
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Jan 20 2004, 01:04 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Yes, the nick is from that author.
It's an outlook thing. When you make a character, you generally have some role you want to fill. The Weaopns Expert's role is that she wants to be useful under as many different combat conditions as possible while relying primairily on her natural abilities. Besides the flavor text, this is reinforced in her skills. She has a total of 7 different weapon skills, two of which she possess a B/R for. In play, she'd almost assuredly pick up more cyberware, but her goal is to possess many different skills. She'd obviously increase what skills she has, but she'd probably pick up others, such as Unarmed, Launch weapons, and more esoteric weapon skills. Her goals look to be karma-based, so she's karma based in my mind. However, much of that is exposition based on her flavor text. If her goals weren't so much as to become better at many different weapons as it was to get more cyberware, she'd be nuyen-based in my mind. Maybe she didn't have cyberware due to lack of oppurtunity and only learned about all of those weapons as she was forced to often pick up new ones. My definition of Karma-based and nuyen-based aren't based on what they have, but what their primary goal is and whether that goal can be fulfilled through karma or nuyen. A Mage can't initiate with nuyen - he needs karma. Neither can a street samurai upgrade his cyberware with karma - he needs nuyen. It goes without saying that a karma-based character needs nuyen and vice versa. Some goals can be achieved with either karma or nuyen, but a character generally chooses one route. For example, while the weapons expert could pick up some skillwires and go that route for versatility, but it would appear that they've chosen the karma-based route for versatility. They could pick up skillwires too and use that for non-combat skills and only spend their karma on attributes and combat skills. Definitely would augment them. It's not a game mechanical definition and just some divider I make in my head, so it's not too important. I'm not being particulairly clear and there are some definite grey areas in what I'm talking about, but I hope you're able to salvage my point. |
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Jan 20 2004, 02:52 AM
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#39
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Again, and again, and again, I attempt to point this out: Street Samurai are not just metallic nuyen-sinkholes only good for killing. Sure, once they run out of spots for 'ware, they slow down, but they can do other things too. They can start learning how to deck, how to rig, how to talk to people, so on and so forth. They only thing they can't do once they get below 1 Essence is become magically active. (At least, there is no canon evidence to convince me otherwise. If it SURGEd, it'd be there, and before (s)he knew it, it would be gone because of the lack of Essence). Other than that, they can do anything. Take an onslaught of skills, learn languages, develop contacts into buddies, and buddies into friends for life.
The Street Samurai can increase his/her skills just as infinitely as the Weapon Specialist. Except the Street Samurai might prefer one type to using everything like a Weapon Specialist would. So that means, in time, he can have Pistols 12, Unarmed Combat 12, and Edged Weapons 12. Sure, it'd cost him mucho karma if he didn't have the related stats just as high (Impossible but through cyberware) as the skill. But he can do it. Or, you could do something unheard of: Limit initiations to the highest level being equal to one less than the highest level in the group. After that they have to do it outside of the group. If they already do that, try to limit it further by (if you allow it) disallowing karma-for-cash/cash-for-karma and your rewards. |
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Jan 20 2004, 03:47 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I don't dispute for a moment that a Steet Samurai CAN learn to do other things after they max out on cyberware. What I am disputing is that there is no reason why they have to max out on cyberware when there are certainly some solutions to that issue. Why should they be forced to branch out when other concepts can continue to focus on what they have been focusing on since the first session? My point is that the street samurai's focus is usually his cyberware. There's no reason to deny him future advancement that. The Weapon Specialist wants her focus to be on skills - And she can do that. She can go up into infinity with her skills and be happy, because she is doing exactly what she wants to. She doesn't need to undergo genetic treatments and become Super Woman in order to get those skills, she just can. She doesn't need to alter her personality and concept in the slightest. The Street Samurai wants to keep buffing his cyberware up into infinity? He can't without becoming a cyberzombie. Doing that will almost always require you completely rethink how you've played your character up until now. This brings us to the next part of your post.
When looking at something that is underpowered, you ask yourself if it is an isolated case or not. In this case, the problem is with ONE type of character, the one that wants to define themselves based on how much cyberware they can shove into their body. There's no reason to bring EVERYONE down to their level when you really just have to alter that one type of character to achieve a form of balance on this. |
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Jan 20 2004, 03:58 AM
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#41
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
However, there has to be a balance. I once read that an L4 initiate is rare among the people (Dragons and IEs don't count, obviously). So those L10s you've got dropping bombs among your group are gonna be rare, and people are gonna want to study under them to figure out how to channel that much raw power without blowing themselves up first (or risking focus addiction).
You can take toys away. You can get into magical fights and lose a Quickening or two. That would easily even out the difference between Street Sammies and mages. You can depower a mage by killing off his Quickened spells, his Tattooed spells, et cetera. You can only depower a Street Sammie filled with 'ware by ripping the 'ware out of him or killing him. Basically, the Sammie is always on full. He doesn't have to worry about a Free Spirit coming by and going "I don't like you" then promptly shunting his Quickened/Tattoed spells to nothingness. Sure, it limits his growth in his "specialization." However, I don't view Sammies as just looking for more and more 'ware. I just see them as trying to make the world a safer place and trying to teach wanna-be sammies what a real Street Samurai is. |
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Jan 20 2004, 04:27 AM
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#42
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Something else to keep in mind in this Sam vs Magic/Others debate is this: While to a certain extent the Sam's cyber/bioware may incur stress and fail, it can almost as easily be fixed(just go for surgery). Also the higher grade the cyber, the more difficult it is to fail/get stressed.
However, the problem for mages/awakened is that the minute you get Deadly, you are rolling for Magic loss. The higher you are initiated, the easier it is to lose Magic. So I think the two sides are balanced. One has a "cap" but the other(Awakened) isn't much better off. |
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Jan 20 2004, 04:28 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Did you read my post?
You are advocating screwing the other PCs over for the express purpose of making the street samurai feel special because he ISN'T getting screwed on a regular basis. I don't know about you, but most people I've played with dislike things being actively taken away on a regular basis. Not that they object to it happening, it's part of the game, but it happening on the scale you are suggesting. On the other hand, it's unusual for someone to complain much about another PC getting a little more loving until it gets to the point of being excessive("...So, we find some betaware Wired Reflexes just lying around in here?" "Yep. It's new."). You'll notice that none of my suggestions on potential solutions involved nerfing other concepts to make it look more appetizing. I'm just a touch stunned at the idea of someone seeming to genuinely think that balance issues with one PC concept being a bit underpowered can be solved by screwing the other PCs over. |
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Jan 20 2004, 04:37 AM
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#44
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
How is limiting via some canoninical reference (The higher initiate level you are, the rarer you're going to be) "screwing" a PC? It's saying with very good reasoning: "Your group holds no Initiates of the level you're looking to achieve. They can't help you along in this one." Thus the PC must pay karma as per initiating by him/herself. Then he starts getting fanmail or its kin about how they want to study under him.
Is that "screwing" them over? No, it's giving them what they want. And the effects of getting what they want. It's like the speech I heard about how if something is rare, somebody else is going to want it. As an example: The ever-so-elusive milspec armor. Sure. Joe Samurai might own a suit. Doesn't mean everybody's gonna want it. Some people will, and they'll do anything they can to get it, even if it means killing him in his sleep. There are ups and downs to having good stuff. Everybody adores you, yet envies you. So your high-level initiate is going to get both fanmail and hatemail, kids asking to be trained, and very possibly the cops watching him astrally everywhere he goes. |
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Jan 20 2004, 05:02 AM
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#45
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Having good stuff doesn't automatically make you famous. Hell, some of the Nobel prize winners are people I've never heard of. But are they good? Damn sure they're.
For the magic users, the solution of making them initiate themselves via self-initiation is flawed. The group does not help the initiate by training him but it helps by making a magical link and contacting a spirit avatar. The magic user need not ADVERTISE. If you want to ADVERTISE, it is your damn problem. The most successful criminals are the ones you never hear about. And shadowrunners are criminals. |
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Jan 20 2004, 05:36 AM
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#46
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Personally, I think the problem is how Modesitt is defining a Street Sam's overall goals. I don't believe for a minute that his main aim is to stuff as much cyberware into his body as is (meta)humanly possible. I think his goal is to be as good a Street Warrior as he can be, which means using augmentations when needed, but also includes constantly improving, and even adding to his skill set.
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Jan 20 2004, 05:36 AM
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#47
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Hm... Must be another of those ancient SR2 relics I keep mushing around my brain.
Yes, the good ones are the ones you don't know about. However, usually the forerunners are the ones everybody knows about. |
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Jan 20 2004, 06:31 AM
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#48
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
That's why I've always advocated being good but not best, especially at higher levels. You may be the fastest sprinter on Earth but number two is no slouch either.
Ask anyone who's competed at the highest levels, they 'll tell you that on another day, it might just have been Mr Two who had won. Perfect is often the enemy of good. |
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Jan 20 2004, 12:03 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 5-August 03 Member No.: 5,252 |
now, i do it like this....
WHENEVER cyberware is removed, the essence is fully restored in about a week if one wants essence restored with the ware still installed you'll have to ask a initiated mage using a meta technique i call "Restoration" (ooh, smart of me huh?) it's simple, they roll their Magic against 8, for every two successes the character restored gets one essence back, the restoration takes about a month during which neither character can do very much but go on with the restoration ritual modifiers to the restoration TN are If the characters are attached (Great friends, lovers, etc): -2 If the characters dislike each other (Enemies): +2 (can be possible if the mage is forced to restore the sammy) If double the time is taken (2 months): -1 If half the time is taken (15 days): +2 |
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Jan 20 2004, 03:58 PM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Thanks for the (skill v. equipment limits based upon mindset) answers (if I understood them correctly, that is).
Sheer curiosity at this point: So what makes one kind of limitation any more valid than another kind? Because that is what most of you are getting at, here: * limitations based upon mindset, v. * limitations based upon raw Essence, v. * limitations based upon having been Awakened / otaku and/or degree thereof, v. * limitations based upon potential initiatory levels, v. * limitations based upon perceived skill level need, v. * limitations based upon equipment levels, v. * limitations based upon the PC's forced time out of active play (due to healing), v. * limitations based upon the PC's time out of active play (due to 'ware upgrades), v. * limitations based upon the PC's time out of active play (due to task work or other forms of learning). |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th April 2022 - 09:26 PM |
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