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> Increased cylinder and the cavalier deputy
Carriage
post May 23 2009, 02:16 AM
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Question from arsenal:

Increased cylinder says it increases the ammo capacity from 6 to 8. Deputy has a capacity of 7.

So,
It goes to 8
It goes to 9
or it doesn't work on that gun

Which choice would you use?
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Warlordtheft
post May 23 2009, 02:21 AM
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I'd go with it doesn't work. But that is only my opinion.
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Digital Heroin
post May 23 2009, 02:45 AM
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There's RAW definition of what its effect would be, but I go with 9. I'm still a fan of tossing Increased Cylinder and a minor Firing Selection change (to SA) on a Ruger Super Warhawk myself. Throw in some Custom Look and you have one hell of a piece.
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Tanegar
post May 23 2009, 02:54 AM
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Can you mod a revolver for an oblong drum magazine (as in Bioshock)? Yes, I'd like a Super Warhawk with a 24-round capacity, please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Warlordtheft
post May 23 2009, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ May 22 2009, 10:45 PM) *
There's RAW definition of what its effect would be, but I go with 9. I'm still a fan of tossing Increased Cylinder and a minor Firing Selection change (to SA) on a Ruger Super Warhawk myself. Throw in some Custom Look and you have one hell of a piece.


I came up with the following:

Ruger Superwarhawk (base gun)
Increased Cylinder
Ceremic materials Level 3
Smartgun link
SA
Ammo selector
(uses caseless ammo)

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Digital Heroin
post May 23 2009, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ May 23 2009, 04:02 AM) *
I came up with the following:

Ruger Superwarhawk (base gun)
Increased Cylinder
Ceremic materials Level 3
Smartgun link
SA
Ammo selector
(uses caseless ammo)


There are plenty of fun things that can be done with revolvers, or any kind of piece, really. I designed mine for a P.I. with a license to carry, and an eye on making it well known he was.
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Daishi
post May 23 2009, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ May 22 2009, 09:02 PM) *
I came up with the following:

Ruger Superwarhawk (base gun)
Increased Cylinder
Ceremic materials Level 3
Smartgun link
SA
Ammo selector
(uses caseless ammo)

For a character I'm currently building I went with Smartgun mod, Ammo Skip System, Firing Mod (SA), Increased Cylinder, Custom Look 2, Skinlink, and a Gas Vent II accessory (muzzle brake, yeah!). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 2900 isn't cheap for a handgun, but what a frakkin' scary beast.
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KarmaInferno
post May 23 2009, 08:04 AM
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Clearly we need another level or three of increased cylinder.

(second firearm after the Lemat)




-karma
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cREbralFIX
post May 23 2009, 02:57 PM
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Look, it's a revolver. The ammunition and cylinder diameters, combined with metallurgy designed to resist high pressure, determine the number of rounds that can fit into the gun. The chamber walls must be thick enough to handle the pressure generated by the cartridge. Additionally, the cylinder has to fit within the frame of the gun. That means there is a fixed relationship between the components that attach the cylinder to the frame and the cylinder itself.

The notion that "revolvers are simple" is held by people who are not revolver gunsmiths. While I can see some sort of external attachment point for the cylinder (drum fed shotguns come to mind), I don't see how making that attachment point variable is possible. The TRUE problem is that revolvers are COMPLEX machines. The cylinder must spin freely while maintaining alignment and distance relationships between the firing pin and barrel. These gaps, as well as chamber and barrel alignment, are critically important. Any sort of variable attachment mechanism could lead to small deviations over time due to weakness in materials.

Ruger just released their LCR line of revolvers (http://www.ruger.com/LCR/intro.html). The difference with this gun is that the frame is partially made from polymers--a new development for 2008/2009. The problem is that it introduces even MORE recoil...and you will notice that the gun is chambered in 38 +P, NOT 357 Magnum. At 11 ounces, full bore 357 Magnum would be very painful to shoot. Even S&W's lightweight 357 Magnums draw many negative comments in gun reviews and shooting articles. Given my comments on the Ruger LCR, anyone using "ceramic materials" in a Ruger Warhawk without additional weights is out of their mind. There is NO way in the world that I would shoot a big bore revolver like the fictional SR revolver if it weighed anything less than 35-40 ounces (a 36 ounce-ish S&W M29 with 4" barrel in 44 Magnum...with "tame" loads...was awful). The weight absorbs the recoil (this is a common theme on revolver shooting and competition forums). The ONLY situation where I could see this being a non-issue is if the operator was shooting the gun using a fully cybernetic arm (no tendons to scream OUCH). Big bore...big weight...it's a fact of life.

The fact of the matter is that revolvers are a limited technology. There is only so much one can do in 2009, much less 2070. But, since we're talking about a game, maybe firearms designers "figured out" a way around it. However, if I were GM'ing, there would be definite limitations and a few extra recoil modifiers.

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cREbralFIX
post May 23 2009, 02:59 PM
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RE: karmainferno's post

Notice the SMALL diameter of those holes. Less damage, etc.

Again, the designer was looking for a semi-automatic pistol, but was limited to designing a revolver.
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Tanegar
post May 23 2009, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ May 23 2009, 09:57 AM) *
However, if I were GM'ing, there would be definite limitations and a few extra recoil modifiers.

Remember: every time you bring real physics into a discussion of a fantasy game, god kills a kitten. Please, won't you think of the kittens?
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cREbralFIX
post May 23 2009, 03:37 PM
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I hate kittens. They should all die.

QUOTE
Ruger Superwarhawk (base gun)
Increased Cylinder
Ceremic materials Level 3
Smartgun link
SA
Ammo selector
(uses caseless ammo)


Increased cylinder means that the diameter of the cylinder can increase slightly IF there's additional room in the frame. Otherwise, the frame will have to change. There are two other options, both of which S&W has in production today: 1) change the caliber and 2) change the metallurgy of the cylinder. S&W has managed to increase the capacity of their 686 line of revolvers to seven. This was done through improving the quality of the steel (I am not sure of the cylinder is slightly larger, but it could be). One advantage of the seven shot revolvers is that the notch is offset and is cut between the chambers. On six shot revolvers, it is cut even with the chamber, resulting in a thinner wall in that area (it's only about 3/16" wide by 5x32" or so (just a guess to illustrate how small it is)). On their N-Frame guns, S&W now has eight shot cylinders.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/cre...ear/357gear.jpg

SA doesn't matter. The cylinder is rotated by finger pressure. A gun properly setup for speed shooting will have a heavier reset spring (this pulls the trigger FORWARD), allowing the shooter to reset the trigger for the next shot. There is a price to be paid: the pull weight of the trigger increases slightly. However, this will not matter for a skilled shooter since a competent gunsmith will make both the pull and return very, very smooth. In case you don't know, a smooth, predictable trigger that has a consistent pull weight is much easier to shoot than a gun with a trigger whose pull weights change throughout the length of the pull and reset. These "micro" changes affect the sight picture and amplify these changes during rapid fire. In game terms, the shooter would receive less recoil modifiers during rapid fire. I would also assign a +1 die modifier for longer ranged aimed fire.

The smartgun link is a gizmo that would either be integrated into the shroud or grip, or be attached to the gun in some way. Not really an issue in terms of engineering. This has already been done for lights and lasers.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/sto...amp;isFirearm=Y

Caseless ammo just eliminates the thickness of the case from the chamber. This would be a few thousands of an inch...a bonus in terms of cylinder strength for sure! But, it may not result in an extra round in the cylinder. Again, since this is a game, I would rule that caseless ammo gets you +1 capacity, but cannot be combined with any other feature.

Oddly enough, now that I think about it, some of the problems with caseless ammo go away in a revolver. There is still the issue of fouling adhering to the chamber though. This could cause resistance when inserting a new round into a dirty chamber. With current technology, carbon builds up at the end of the case in the chamber of revolvers. If the shooter with a 357 Magnum revolver fires a bunch of 38 Special ammunition and a carbon ring forms, it can be very difficult to insert the longer 357 Magnum cartridges into the gun.

No comment on the ammo selector gizmo. It's kinda cool and I'm sure that'd be really cool to have. I want one on my gun.

You should also look into some mods for fast reloading. While a speed loader is good, moonclips are better. Speed loaders hold all the rounds together, but they slide into the gun individually. This can be a problem since one may bind up on the grip or just decide to not cooperate. The moonclip solves this problem. All the cartridges are held together as one by a piece of spring steel. They all do in at the same time, at the same depth in a really quick way. Chamfering the edges of the charge holes makes things even easier.

http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/cre...nt=01010085.jpg

Notice how the charge holes are chamfered on the S&W Model 27.

In game terms, reloading a revolver setup this way would be the same as reloading a semi-automatic pistol.

P312 of SR4 would be modified as follows:

Reloading Method / Action Required / Result

Cylinder / complex action / Insert $agility rounds
Speed loader / complex action / full reload
Moonclip / simple action / Insert/remove moonclip

http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/cre...nt=01010125.jpg

Moon clips for S&W 625 (45 ACP)



http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i236/cre...s/SW27sharp.jpg
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DuctShuiTengu
post May 23 2009, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ May 23 2009, 04:57 PM) *
Look, it's a revolver. The ammunition and cylinder diameters, combined with metallurgy designed to resist high pressure, determine the number of rounds that can fit into the gun. The chamber walls must be thick enough to handle the pressure generated by the cartridge. Additionally, the cylinder has to fit within the frame of the gun. That means there is a fixed relationship between the components that attach the cylinder to the frame and the cylinder itself.

The notion that "revolvers are simple" is held by people who are not revolver gunsmiths. While I can see some sort of external attachment point for the cylinder (drum fed shotguns come to mind), I don't see how making that attachment point variable is possible. The TRUE problem is that revolvers are COMPLEX machines. The cylinder must spin freely while maintaining alignment and distance relationships between the firing pin and barrel. These gaps, as well as chamber and barrel alignment, are critically important. Any sort of variable attachment mechanism could lead to small deviations over time due to weakness in materials.

Ruger just released their LCR line of revolvers (http://www.ruger.com/LCR/intro.html). The difference with this gun is that the frame is partially made from polymers--a new development for 2008/2009. The problem is that it introduces even MORE recoil...and you will notice that the gun is chambered in 38 +P, NOT 357 Magnum. At 11 ounces, full bore 357 Magnum would be very painful to shoot. Even S&W's lightweight 357 Magnums draw many negative comments in gun reviews and shooting articles. Given my comments on the Ruger LCR, anyone using "ceramic materials" in a Ruger Warhawk without additional weights is out of their mind. There is NO way in the world that I would shoot a big bore revolver like the fictional SR revolver if it weighed anything less than 35-40 ounces (a 36 ounce-ish S&W M29 with 4" barrel in 44 Magnum...with "tame" loads...was awful). The weight absorbs the recoil (this is a common theme on revolver shooting and competition forums). The ONLY situation where I could see this being a non-issue is if the operator was shooting the gun using a fully cybernetic arm (no tendons to scream OUCH). Big bore...big weight...it's a fact of life.

The fact of the matter is that revolvers are a limited technology. There is only so much one can do in 2009, much less 2070. But, since we're talking about a game, maybe firearms designers "figured out" a way around it. However, if I were GM'ing, there would be definite limitations and a few extra recoil modifiers.


Dude, ease up. While realistically, all the problems you're pointing out do exist and - at least at present - seem insurmountable, within the context of Shadowrun, it's perfectly doable.
  • There is a weapon modification in Arsenal that increases the number of rounds the cylinder of a revolver holds; it does this without interfering with the revolver's ability to continue working.
  • There is a weapon modification which replaces the metal parts of the gun with ceramics so that it doesn't set off metal detectors; it doesn't cause changes to weight or recoil.
  • There's a modification that makes your gun lighter; it doesn't cause problems with recoil.


Now, is any of this realistic? Probably not. However, whether it's realistic or not is completely outside the intended topic of this thread.

Also, you're playing a game where:
  • Dragons own multi-billion dollar corporations
  • The South really did rise again
  • Shoot-outs between Gandalf and the Terminator are fairly common on runs
  • Female pornomancers can walk into a gay bar and accidentally seduce every man there while ordering their drink
  • trolls in milspec armor can take anti-tank rounds to the chest and keep going while mowing down the opposition with miniguns.
  • A guy with a bow can (potentially) hit harder than any firearm that doesn't need to be mounted on something the size of a truck or larger.
  • Modern encryption technologies that take years or decades to brute-force have gone the way of the dodo, replaced by ones that can be cracked in seconds.

And being able to modify a revolver without having it fail, explode, or rip your arms off and knock your teeth in from recoil is too unrealistic?
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 23 2009, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ May 23 2009, 09:57 AM) *
The TRUE problem is that revolvers are COMPLEX machines.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine

I'd say it was more of a precision made simple machine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Kingboy
post May 23 2009, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ May 22 2009, 09:21 PM) *
I'd go with it doesn't work. But that is only my opinion.


Any particular reason? Just curious...


Per RAW the Increased Cylinder mod is a fixed number [8] rather than a percentage [25%] like the Extended Clip mod, so the end result for the Deputy is a cylinder size of 8, the same as any other revolver with this mod. Having it change the Deputy to a 9 round cylinder would require a house rule to make Increased Cylinder act like Extended clip.

Honestly, I'd just say not to bother with the Increased Cylinder mod on the Deputy and use that slot for some other purpose.
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Snow_Fox
post May 23 2009, 07:04 PM
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the problem with increasing the cylinder is that whole whole weapon bulks up.that throws the balance off, badly. a larger cylander means the frame has to be made larger to accoadate it and that changed the balance.
RL I had a Mataba and the whole freaking thing was called 'the italian monster' by the guys at the range.

by comparrison an extended clip on a semi-automatic just means a lnoger tail sticking out of the guns but.
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Meatbag
post May 23 2009, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Kingboy @ May 23 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Any particular reason? Just curious...


Per RAW the Increased Cylinder mod is a fixed number [8] rather than a percentage [25%] like the Extended Clip mod, so the end result for the Deputy is a cylinder size of 8, the same as any other revolver with this mod. Having it change the Deputy to a 9 round cylinder would require a house rule to make Increased Cylinder act like Extended clip.

Honestly, I'd just say not to bother with the Increased Cylinder mod on the Deputy and use that slot for some other purpose.


Personally, I'd just apply the Increased Cylinder mod to the Deputy right out of the box. I don't like the idea of a weapon that can't actually be made with the crafting RAW.
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Carriage
post May 24 2009, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE
Per RAW the Increased Cylinder mod is a fixed number [8] rather than a percentage [25%] like the Extended Clip mod, so the end result for the Deputy is a cylinder size of 8, the same as any other revolver with this mod. Having it change the Deputy to a 9 round cylinder would require a house rule to make Increased Cylinder act like Extended clip.


The problem is, it says it increases from 6 to 8. Not by two, or to 8, but from 6 to 8. Warlordtheft must think that as the deputy doesn't have 6 rounds to begin with, it can't be done.

All you other people talking about random stuff. That's cool, try to answer the question in the OP too, thanks.
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Daishi
post May 24 2009, 02:32 AM
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Frankly, the Cavalier Deputy causes the rules of the Increased Cylinder Mod to have a logic embolism and fall to the ground twitching.

"But this one goes to seven."
"I can't hear you!"

I say just add two for consistency.
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 24 2009, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE (Daishi @ May 23 2009, 10:32 PM) *
Frankly, the Cavalier Deputy causes the rules of the Increased Cylinder Mod to have a logic embolism and fall to the ground twitching.

"But this one goes to seven."
"I can't hear you!"

I say just add two for consistency.


Every time I think of the deputy I think of the bad Arnold western paradoy Cactus Jack. "The cowboy Handsome Stranger will escort miss Charming Jones to get a large sum of money from her father, Parody Jones. But the rich Avery Jones wants to lay his hands on the money and hires and old cowboy, Cactus Jack, to rob them when they ride back from her father. However, Cactus Jack is not very good at robbing people." The 7 shgot revolver gag was used like 100 times in the movie, he shoots 6 times the bad guys step out LOLS you are out of Ammo, Bang, "But this one goes to Seven"
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Kerenshara
post May 24 2009, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin @ May 22 2009, 10:45 PM) *
There's RAW definition of what its effect would be, but I go with 9. I'm still a fan of tossing Increased Cylinder and a minor Firing Selection change (to SA) on a Ruger Super Warhawk myself. Throw in some Custom Look and you have one hell of a piece.

You know, I hadn't considered that... add a smartgun link for mission selectable ammunition... I think I will have to cook up one of those, if only for show!
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Tanegar
post May 24 2009, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (DuctShuiTengu @ May 23 2009, 11:59 AM) *
Shoot-outs between Gandalf and the Terminator are fairly common on runs

OMFG sigged. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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Stahlseele
post May 24 2009, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 24 2009, 04:45 AM) *
Every time I think of the deputy I think of the bad Arnold western paradoy Cactus Jack. "The cowboy Handsome Stranger will escort miss Charming Jones to get a large sum of money from her father, Parody Jones. But the rich Avery Jones wants to lay his hands on the money and hires and old cowboy, Cactus Jack, to rob them when they ride back from her father. However, Cactus Jack is not very good at robbing people." The 7 shgot revolver gag was used like 100 times in the movie, he shoots 6 times the bad guys step out LOLS you are out of Ammo, Bang, "But this one goes to Seven"

That's one of the best reasons for anyone to take increased cylinder ever!
But only, if everybody else knows how many bullets are supposed to be in there.
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KarmaInferno
post May 25 2009, 05:30 PM
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I remember seeing a crazy revolver in some movie or anime somewhere.

It had multiple cylinders, each revolving into place as the previous one was finished on some enormous super-cylinder rig that was on a pivot below the trigger.

Anyone know what show that was from?



-karma
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Snow_Fox
post May 29 2009, 12:54 AM
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No idea, but the whole thing sounds massively impractical.

I don't know about a 7 count just to freak out someone actually counting your bullets. (I'm flashing on an old Bugs bunny bit "Hey laughing boy, there was one bullet left") I know I'm not trusting my skin to that sort of luck or even six shots, "good, now as long as he doesn't have a back up..."

In RL there is a S&W .38sp with a 5 shot cylinder. The idea it is makes the weapon smaller and easier to conceal.
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