Help a Noob GM!, 1 Quick hacking question, 1 quick money question. Options

[ca_Kingmaker]

So I'm running a new game, and I have two quick questions I'm sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere in the forum, the search function wasn't helping me.

1. If a technomancer/hacker is attempting to enter a pan, and sets off an alert. I know that the firewall gets a +4 rating, my question is can the PAN's ice then take action to the hacker or does he have to be in the PAN before ICE can take action?

My situtation was the technomancer was attempting to hack a drone who was doing a quick overflight. Basically he believes that until he is in the PAN the ice can't take any action, unless the Drones ice somehow hacks into his PAN.

Which of course leads to the issue that if it works this way, as soon as he has administrative access to the Drone, he can just crash it into the ground and log out to avoid the Ice.

2. My second question is pretty short and sweet. How much is a reasonable amount of cash for runners to make? A simple guildline would be great. I saw in the "top ten questions asked by noobs" that it had two links to threads that apparently discussed this, but they went nowhere.

Thank you for your help!

[Chrysalis]

2. I think I good equation is lifestyle times 2.5, times members in the team, divided by 2 (half first, half later).

[Backgammon]

1. If a technomancer/hacker is attempting to enter a pan, and sets off an alert. I know that the firewall gets a +4 rating, my question is can the PAN's ice then take action to the hacker or does he have to be in the PAN before ICE can take action?

My situtation was the technomancer was attempting to hack a drone who was doing a quick overflight. Basically he believes that until he is in the PAN the ice can't take any action, unless the Drones ice somehow hacks into his PAN.

Which of course leads to the issue that if it works this way, as soon as he has administrative access to the Drone, he can just crash it into the ground and log out to avoid the Ice.

The technomancer is correct. You must be IN the network for ICE to affect you. Basically, the ICE can't log can't go into any node to which it does not have login priviledges, UNLESS the ICE is equiped with the Exploit program (and Stealth), basically allowing the ICE to try to hack into nodes in order to follow you. Evil GMs should not that this should be excessively rare.

So, yes, the hacker will probably have time to crash the drone into the ground before the ICE can actually hurt him. Note however that the Alert will notify the owner/controller of the drone, so that person will most likely countermand any order to crash the drone... until the hacker uses his admin priviledges to blacklist the owner of course. Yeah, hacking is strong.

[ca_Kingmaker]

Huh it just seems to produce an absurd situation where a Drone with rediculously high firewall and system can still be disabled within seconds by a moderately competent hacker.

Technomancer with 11 dice gets on average about 3.7 hits a initiave pass.

3 initiative pasess a turn.

That means it will hack a 6 system six firewall system easily within a 4 or 5 IPs.

Oh I set off the alarm? That adds one more IP.

So an extremely well protected drone can get knocked out in less than two turns, and even having an on board hacker or ICE cant prevent it?

[Aaron]

I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but if I am, there's a difference between gaining access to the node of a drone and actually taking it down.

[Black Jack Rackh...]

Not to mention, you have to find the drone's node first... So if it's flying overhead, likely it'll be far away by the time you can narrow it down.

Mark

[Crusher Bob]

Sigh, I come back to DS after a break, and it's the exact same questions again...

The usual rule of thumb for SR4 pay-outs is 2500 Y (net expenses per point of karma awarded.)

1
The marginal utility of karma and nuyen to advance your character depends on your character type. So, for example, a mage or certain adept builds can basically advance quite far in a karma only rewards game; while mundane characters are basically at the top of their (karma) game out of character creation.
A samurai with 6 million still has the firearms skill of 6 he started the game with; a mage with 6 million karma has a magic rating OVER 9000 biggrin.gif. A street sam with 6 million Y has delta-synaptic III (or whatever); a pure mage with 6 million Y has a nice beach house somewhere.
So, there should be a balance between karma and Y rewards that balances the advancement of both mages and mundanes.

2 The costs of living

2a
The fake SIN tax.
Different styles of games require different amounts of disposable equipment. For example, how often do your characters change fake SINs, drop weapons and other equipment, replace damaged armor, etc? Depending on the style of game, there may be none of this, or it may happen every game. Because there is not a default style of play here, the default pay cannot be fixed, but instead must take into account these expenses.

2b
The lifestyle tax.
Just as different games have different levels of expected expenses, different games also have different run frequencies. So a game that generates a run every in game month will 'tax' lifestyle costs less than a game that generates a run only every 3 in-game months.

2c
Since the expected Y rewards listed in part 1 are solely for character advancement (for example, buying new cyberware) the average pay estimates must also include calculations for the cost of living, based on the assumptions of that particular game table.

4
Lastly, what combination of karma and Y seems to equally reward both magical and mundane characters?
The 2,500 Y per karma point is based on the BP conversion:
1 BP = 5,000 Y
1 BP ~~ 2 karma

So payments should look like:
~2,500 Y per point of karma awarded, net deductions for the expenses

If you want to run a street level game, limit BP in character generation and limit both karma and Y rewards. Limiting Y rewards while still handing out the normal amount of karma just leaves mages laughing all the way to the bloody sacrificial altar.

[edit]
And as for your Matrix questions, some have found enlightenment here
[/edit]

[ca_Kingmaker]

Thanks so much Crusherbob for the great answer, I'm sorry for asking something that has already been answered but the thread that supposedly linked to the old questions is broken. It would be awesome if we could get some sort of stickied thread connected to an FAQ.

[deek]

1. If a technomancer/hacker is attempting to enter a pan, and sets off an alert. I know that the firewall gets a +4 rating, my question is can the PAN's ice then take action to the hacker or does he have to be in the PAN before ICE can take action?

My situtation was the technomancer was attempting to hack a drone who was doing a quick overflight. Basically he believes that until he is in the PAN the ice can't take any action, unless the Drones ice somehow hacks into his PAN.

Which of course leads to the issue that if it works this way, as soon as he has administrative access to the Drone, he can just crash it into the ground and log out to avoid the Ice.

If they have set off an alert during a hack on the fly, they wouldn't know unless they used Matrix Perception (or just did so bad they figure they had to set it off). At that point, the node has identified the Access ID of the hacker and gets +4 to Firewall against that Access ID. Now the hacker could choose not to enter the node. Or could choose to change Access IDs and try to hack the node again. On the defensive end, the node has the AccessID, so they could start tracking it, send it to a spider and they could script to not allow any commands from that ID (or an infinite amount of other things).

Now, if this was done as a probing test, the hacker doesn't set the alert off until he actually enters the node.

Anyways, the IC can't do anything until the hacker is in the node. As another poster mentioned, with the AccessID, an IC or spider or hacker could trace the user to a physical location or just use the AccessID to hack his node. But that sort of action is usually not the norm. I am sure nodes get plenty of AccessIDs that are trying to hack it, so following up on all of those would take too much time.

Again, if the node is aware of your techno's AcessID and this is a drone. The drone has an owner and it would be wise for the owner to ban any logon attempts from that AccessID if he thinks he's gonna hack in. The techno is gonna have to change AccessID and try again, and likely be entering a node with a waiting rigger...

[evilgoattea]

How would a hacker deal with someone gaining admin access to his drone? Would he simply have to reboot the node (shut down and restart the drone) or is their another way of removing someone's admin access?

[Chibu]

If your runners are street thugs, doing easy runs, then yes, the figures stated are probably right. But when you have a hacker and a rigger on the team which each have 1,000,000Y of gear? Why would they work for 5,10,20K? Obviously, they've gotten more elsewhere. Making less money because they don't have a SIN? That only applies to a normal job. It's a benefit when you're hiring shadowrunners. When your stupid pornomancer can talk Lowfyr (when he's having a bad day) into giving him 20 mil because he needs to "feed his family", these low numbers don't make much sense. The mage will be able to get a job with a copr, who will give them a SIN, and pay at least that much. A street sam with wired reflexes and bioware out his ass... how'd he save up the money for all of that when he only makes 20K (max) on a run? Has he been running for 5 years now and put every penny he's gotten into his 'ware?

But, if your characters are all thugs, pickpockets, street criminals, mages who suck real bad... a hacker with a DP of 4 and a cheap comlink... Then yeah, that should be fine.

[Crusher Bob]

Showing some sample calculations for how the karma and nuyen awards across different game types are computed:

Street level game
Expected lifestyle is low (2000 Y a month)
Average adventure occurs about once every two weeks
Average karma award per adventure is 3 karma (each run typically completed in one short session)
Average necessary expenditure per adventure ~500Y per runner

So we'd expect each runner to be paid around (2,000/2) [lifestyle] + 500 (expenses) + (2,500x3) (actual Y reward) or around 9,000 per job.

Higher powered game
Expected lifestyle is high (10,000 Y a month)
Run occurs every 3 months
Average karma award per run is 12 karma (each run expected to take several actual game sessions)
Average necessary expenditure per runner ~25,000

So we'd get paid around (10,000 X 3) (lifestyle) + 25000 (expenses) + (12 x 2500) (actual Y reward) or around 85,000 per job.

Both games are getting their 'expected' 2500Y per point of karma award, but just quoting the average price per runner would tend to make you think that the higher powered game PCs are making off like bandits. Nope, still getting 2500Y per point of karma


What are necessary expenditures?
Stuff like fake SINS, replacing damaged equipment, of stuff dropped/burned because of evidence concerns. Bribes, transporation, fees to sub-contractors, etc.

The level of necessary expenditures depends on both your game style and the run in question.

[Malachi]

How would a hacker deal with someone gaining admin access to his drone? Would he simply have to reboot the node (shut down and restart the drone) or is their another way of removing someone's admin access?

If the drone's node went on Alert before the intruder got in then you should be able to get into the node before the intruder. As an Admin user in your own node you can take any of the actions from the Alert Response Table in the SR core book you want. That includes launching an IC program (if you have one), initiating a reboot, or attempting to shut down the intruder's connection. Once the intruder is in the node they have the same privileges as you do so things become dicey. In this situation I would probably do everything as an opposed test between the intruder's Hacking + some program vs. your Computer + some program but give you (as the legitimate Admin) the +4 bonus from your Firewall being on alert.

However, all of this is kind of a moot point because you've Slaved your Drone to your Commlink right? RIGHT? That means an intruder can't hack into your drone directly, they must attack your Commlink instead. That's where you load up your Commlink with a patrolling IC or two, and the best Data Bomb you can afford. Fending off an intruder in your home Commlink node is where things really get fun in Shadowrun.

[Chibu]

*cut*

That's a difference of 3,000/month after expenses for your thugs and your high powered characters. Anyone who was really on the street would take the easy jobs every 2 weeks over the one every 3 months where you're likely to die.

Now, they might take BOTH, but that's a different story. Again, feel free to use any suggestions given, based on what you think your players should get, but it's still pretty low. Again, with the High Level characters mentioned, thay're making a net 10K/month after lifestyle and running expenses, or 120K / year. So, they've already (apparently) been running (or something) for 9 years to be able to afford those drones and all that cyberware.

But anyway, that's all i'm going to say on the subject as I think my opinion is clear, I shouldn't repeat myself.

Either way though, the most important thing is that it's fun for everyone involved!

[Crusher Bob]

The resources in SR4 are considerably different from resources in SR3. In SR3, you'd need much more Y. In SR4, you can only start with 250,000 Y. In around 2 years of running (in the sample high end game) you'd have around 240,000 Y more in stuff, and around 96 karma (theoretically equal to around 48 BP). So your 350 os skills, etc character + 50 BP of resources (250,000 Y) would have been able to make around the same amount of available resources as he started with. And note that is is explicitly resources available to spend on new cyberware, etc after lifestyle hospitalization and so on have been paid for.

In sr2 and 3, where everything costs more, you'd need to be paying out something like 7,500 to 10,000 Y per karma point to get the same effect.

[Chibu]

In SR4, you can only start with 250,000 Y.

Oh, wow. my bad. Yeah that makes alot more sense then. Thanks for pointing that out.

[deek]

How would a hacker deal with someone gaining admin access to his drone? Would he simply have to reboot the node (shut down and restart the drone) or is their another way of removing someone's admin access?

Malachi gave a couple of good responses. Another way to look at it would be cybercombat. If the owner and hacker both have admin privileges, they can both attempt to shut out each other's connection, remove the AID from the access list, so on and so forth. So, for the "legitimate" removal, its really who does what first and if they left any loopholes to it.

Which is why I said cybercombat. They both go at it and the loser gets dumped...

[Tiger Eyes]

A walk through of a hacker, technomancer, and rigger playing "mine" with a drone is in this thread. Post 18. It is the mechanics behind the Wireless World intro fiction in SR4A.

It does have an example of IC in a drone, as well as what happens when an alert goes off.