Bicardiac, Why no bonus to Athletic tests? Options

[KCKitsune]

OK everyone, I did a search for bicardiac and only found two threads and neither answered the following question:

Why is it that having two hearts doesn't give you a bonus to athletic tests, yet having an upgraded heart does?

Also does being bicardiac give you more stun boxes with regards to magic drain? I know that sounds stupid and munchkin-like, but here is the relevant text:

They can take a maximum of 8 boxes of Stun or Fatigue damage instead of the usual 6 (see Fatigue Damage, p. 155, SR4).

[ornot]

First of all, Magical drain is not the same as fatigue damage. Fatigue damage is stun inflicted from running (or I would guess swimming) for too long. This fatigue damage is actual stun damage, and the limit of 6 boxes is so you cannot knock yourself out from running. When a normal person reaches 6 boxes they fall over, although they are conscious. A Bicardiac will run until they accumulate 8 boxes of stun before falling down. In both cases they have still taken that damage, and will need to rest in the same manner as if they had been shot a lot with gel rounds.

As for not offering the same bonuses as a Synthcardium, perhaps this is because the Synthcardium is more efficient or something. The rules say Bicardiac doesn't. Come up with whatever fluff reason you like. The rules benefits attributed to synthcardium and bicardiac alike don't make a lot of sense from a physiological perspective.

[FrankTrollman]

Honestly, you only have one set of lungs and one set of capillaries. I have no idea how you'd get any benefit at all from having a second heart.

-Frank

[KCKitsune]

OK I'll admit it was a stretch about the Magic drain part of my question, but what about the Athletics tests?

As for not offering the same bonuses as a Synthcardium, perhaps this is because the Synthcardium is more efficient or something. The rules say Bicardiac doesn't. Come up with whatever fluff reason you like. The rules benefits attributed to synthcardium and bicardiac alike don't make a lot of sense from a physiological perspective.

OK and how is bicardiac worth 10 BP? I mean it gives you two extra boxes of fatigue damage... big whoop.

[Dragnar]

I have no idea, but then again, it isn't the only (metagenetic) quality to not be worth the points from my point of view. The designers obviously thought otherwise. There'll never be a set of qualities where everyone agrees on a "correct" price.

[KCKitsune]

I have no idea, but then again, it isn't the only (metagenetic) quality to not be worth the points from my point of view. The designers obviously thought otherwise. There'll never be a set of qualities where everyone agrees on a "correct" price.

I think it should give a +2 bonus to athletic tests. This is equal to level 2 Synthiacardia, but you're paying two and a half times the BP value to not pay the Essence value.

[Kerenshara]

I think it should give a +2 bonus to athletic tests. This is equal to level 2 Synthiacardia, but you're paying two and a half times the BP value to not pay the Essence value.

My own thoughts combine with an above comment: you still have the limits of the rest of the respiratory system. Same quantity of blood, same volume of air exchange per pass, same everything. Note that it never says two FULL SIZE hearts, merely that there are two hearts. Presumably, due to in-efficiency of scale, there is more total mass of heart, but the actual ventricle volume is likely unchanged. It does not say you can lose a heart and still keep going for example. Figure like it's the left and right sides bisected and you don't get to share the same exterior beating sheath, so each heart will need to close off the "side" that would suddenly be naked. Does that makes sense? So the advantage would be that the hearts would tire under severe strain more slowly. Stun damage is hard on the heart: pumping more blood to damaged areas, pumping to re-route around closed vessels, elevated heart rate due to pain hormones, increased blood flow to the liver and kidneys to process out the surplusses from the body as well as the damaged cells as they are filtered out.

Synthecardium increases the raw POWER of the heart muscle itself, the raw ability to do all that extra pumping with less effort. But the size of the muscle is the same as always. Most of the athletics skills it helps are related to short but somewhat sustained bursts of energy (tumbling, running jump, swimming for speed as opposed for endurance) so it just makes sense if you can easily force oxygen and nutrient rich blood to the extremities quickly it would improve your ability to do those activities. The two-heart system isn't necessarilly pumping any HARDER, so it doesn't get the benefit.

Mind you, I am trying to make my argument fit the stats. I would boost it a little too, maybe +1 to athletics. Can't remember if Synthecardium boosts fatigue or not and I am away from my books.

[Method]

I agree with Frank to some extent. The heart is cool but it doesn't work in a vacuum. Circulating the blood faster is all well and good, but eventually you reach a diffusional limit in the lung, which has to do with the partial pressure of oxygen in Earth's atmosphere at low altitudes and a bunch of other things you can't change with augmentations. Synthacardium also doesn't make much sense if you think only of increasing the strength of contractions. That would be great if you want to give the guy hypertension, but unless you also allow for increased relaxation --> increased filling --> increased cardiac output the extra strength is pointless. Luckily the BBB just says synthacardium is "artificially enhanced" not stronger, so people like me who think too much about this shit don't go mad.

But I digress.

While your logic is good, I would argue that you have applied it backwards. Bicardia might enhance one's exercise tolerance, but the +DP to athletics for Synthacardium makes little sense. Take Lance Armstrong for example. He has arguably the most efficient heart in any human being ever tested. His heart, which could be comparable to Synthacardium for all intents and purposes, enhances his ability to *race* bicycles by virtue of increased exercise tolerance and response to increased cardiac demand (or in game terms an increase to his DP to resist fatigue). It would likewise help him run a marathon or swim a mile. But it doesn't make him better at *riding* bicycles, or hitting baseballs, or gymnastics or karate. Thus I would argue that given the logic behind Bicardia, Synthacardium should be changed.

[HappyDaze]

Synthacardium should be changed.

Yes, please.

[Kerenshara]

Synthacardium also doesn't make much sense if you think only of increasing the strength of contractions. That would be great if you want to give the guy hypertension, but unless you also allow for increased relaxation --> increased filling --> increased cardiac output the extra strength is pointless. Luckily the BBB just says synthacardium is "artificially enhanced" not stronger, so people like me who think too much about this shit don't go mad.
*snip*
While your logic is good, I would argue that you have applied it backwards. Bicardia might enhance one's exercise tolerance, but the +DP to athletics for Synthacardium makes little sense. Take Lance Armstrong for example. He has arguably the most efficient heart in any human being ever tested. His heart, which could be comparable to Synthacardium for all intents and purposes, enhances his ability to *race* bicycles by virtue of increased exercise tolerance and response to increased cardiac demand (or in game terms an increase to his DP to resist fatigue). It would likewise help him run a marathon or swim a mile. But it doesn't make him better at *riding* bicycles, or hitting baseballs, or gymnastics or karate. Thus I would argue that given the logic behind Bicardia, Synthacardium should be changed.

I DID leave out the top consideration, but it would make sense how you have it, and I guess that's what I was thinking if I had laid it out better, since I DID actually consider relaxation of the diaphram for air volume exchange. I want to think on that a bit.
By my logic, I would have suggested Synthecardium not apply to EXTENDED tests, but your logic suggests the opposite. Hmmm...

[Method]

Kerenshara: Sorry. My post should have been addressed to the OP. Sorry for the confusion.

But by relaxation I mean relaxation of the ventricular wall. This allows the chamber to dilate, allowing increased filling (what we call preload) which primes the heart for a stronger contraction and increases the volume of blood the heart moves with each contraction (the stroke volume).

(As an aside: SV x Heart Rate = Cardiac Output, which is the principle measure of overall cardiac function. The normal resting HR for an adult is 80 to 100 bpm. Lance Armstrong's resting HR is 32-34 bpm but his CO remains the same. That means Lance moves roughly 2.72 times more blood with the same amount of work. Freakish.)

As far as your other ideas, your right and left heart basically are separate, as are your pulmonary and systemic circulations- basically like a parallel circuit. separating them wouldn't make much difference, except that as you stated they would contract independently which would actually be bad for a couple reasons. And thinking about it, I don't think adding a second heart in series with the systemic circulation would really do anything for you. Maybe a second heart in series with the pulmonary circulation would help with oxygenation (tho I'm not sure how it could be much better). You would have to modify the left heart tho, for greatly increased preload. You could put a "venous heart" low in the pelvis that pumps deoxygenated blood from the lower extremities back to the central veins, maybe. Might help reduce lactic acidosis, which plays a big role in muscle fatigue, but who knows.

Probably best not to think about such things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) That way lies madness....

[Dragnar]

Probably best not to think about such things... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) That way lies madness....

This right here is the universal truth about RPG-physics and realism. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

In deed. This is not unlike the Matrix rules for people familiar with computer science. But then again, I don't want my RPG to be like going to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[KCKitsune]

I have no idea, but then again, it isn't the only (metagenetic) quality to not be worth the points from my point of view. The designers obviously thought otherwise. There'll never be a set of qualities where everyone agrees on a "correct" price.

Amen to that! For that matter, I want to know why the Vomeronasal Organ metagenic positive quality costs 10 BP? I mean if you're not wearing a respirator of rating 2 or better you suffer negative dice pool on EVERY test, Tailored Pheromones are doubly effective and if you have an adrenal pump then it will go off more often. All those negatives for a +3 to Perception tests for smells and a +2 to Social tests... unless you're not wearing a rating 2 respirator and then you lose the social bonus completely and only have a +1 to perception tests for smells.