Researching matters obscure, Where Spike gets Technical Options

[Spike]

Having determined that I want to set a game in the Puyallup barrens, and inspired by an online game here on Dumpshock that I didn't quite get to play in, I realized I wanted to take advantage of the depths of technology and richness of setting to make the geography (among other things...) come alive for my players.

Sadly, I realized I lacked some relavent knowledge to really pull it off.

To start with: What are the geographic boundaries of 'Puyallup' in Shadowrun?

Obviously this is far more than the 'city' of Puyallup. I'd a mind to set the 'western' boundary along Canyon Road, but I personnally always sort of looked at Puyallup as 'starting' with the South Hill Mall off 512 (which I suspect is the infamous 'Crime Mall' mentioned on the Shadowrun wiki...)

I've no idea where the north and south boundaries are, if any, and frankly suspect that there is no official 'eastern' border to the barrens.

Seeing as the region became a barrens after an eruption of Mt Ranier, and looking at a contour map I've determined that there was probably a major lava flow 'up' highway 5, wiping out Orting, which serves as a possible South East corner to the Barrens region, which makes it quite huge... Thinking on that line keeps the moutains as the 'eastern limit' to the region, keeping Bonney Lake 'just outside', for example, but possibly including Sumner as the rough 'NorthEast' corner.


Now: I imagine MOST of the devestation that would cripple the area would actually be from ash falls and so forth, but seeing as the Puyallup river valley(is that the official name? I guess I could ask a local...) lies north of my projected lava flow, I'm actually quite curious about the geological impact of it hitting the river, or if in fact it would even reach that far north!

At this point I'm really fishing for bits to flesh out the region, things (other than Sh*tballs stupid novel crap...) that have happned of note in region, ideas on background counts and other magical phenomena and so forth. Puyallup seems to be the largely ignored younger stupider brother-barrens in the Shadowrun Seattle... which is good in that it gives me a largely blank canvas to fill, but bad in that I've got a lot more space than patience!

[Chibu]

Your post didn't make any sense to me at first... At then I realized that no one else plays second edition... Second edition has whole books about the major cities that they got around to writing about.

So, anyway, to the east and south of Puyallup is the SS Council. West is the Fort Lewis area, and north is Tacoma and Auborn. You could just go look at a map... if you had the Seattle Sourcebook, which I highly recommend. Or, if I were allowed (which I'm pretty sure I'm not, though if a mod could let me know that would be great) I'd scan the map of that area for you.


Anyway, the northern border seems to be route 410. Also yes, the Crime Mall is nearly at the northern border. The west border, routes 7 and 507 (maybe 587, it's kind of blurry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ). Lake Kapowsin and Tarislar (rather, a bit south of it) are the southern border. Nothing very distinguishable to the east though other than the SS Border patrols.

EDIT: If you're really interested in Puyallup, you should definitely get a copy of the Seattle Sourcebook. There are 8 pages, plus a 2 page map for Puyallup.

Another edit: Also, as a point of reference, this sectino of the city is about 1000 square kilometers, the largest (pretty sure) of the sections of the city. The reason it seems smaller is because about 1/3 of it is Hells Kitchen (the eastern third, pretty much north to south) which is all still kind of burning from the lava.

[HappyDaze]

http://www.geotimes.org/apr04/feature_MountRainier.html

That'll show you the predicted paths of the lahars from Ranier, including a map. Of course, it doesn't take into account geomaturgical alterations...

[Jhaiisiin]

The 3rd ed New Seattle book shows the highway labels much more clearly. 507 on the west border, 512/410 for the northern border, 165 for the eastern border, and a long line starting at Highway 507 that goes down past Harts Lake and as low as Kreger Lake, then comes up past Clear Lake to Lake Kapowsin then over to 165.

Hope that gives you the boundaries you were looking for.

[Chibu]

Since I don't have a scanner here anyway... Here's a link to google maps with a route set to go around the borders of Puyallup. The only problem is that there are not enough roads in the east. The eastern part is more rounded than in this.


http://chibu.net/linkshare/?l=ah (Same idea as tinyURL. Redirects to google maps, the link is really long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Jhaiisiin]

That's probably as close a representation we'll ever see from something like google maps. Really close though.

[The Jake]

I'm hitting this issue with Caracas.

No book or map in game shows the boundaries between Amazonia and Aztlan. Infact, if you check the Sixth World Wiki (unofficial, I know) it says that its all part of Amazonia:
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/South_America

This doesn't gel with the old Aztlan map either. Then again, I can't find a current map of anything in South America.

If only Shadows of Latin America were released...

- J.

[Chibu]

I'm hitting this issue with Caracas.

No book or map in game shows the boundaries between Amazonia and Aztlan. Infact, if you check the Sixth World Wiki (unofficial, I know) it says that its all part of Amazonia:
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/South_America

This doesn't gel with the old Aztlan map either. Then again, I can't find a current map of anything in South America.

If only Shadows of Latin America were released...

- J.

I've personally been waiting for Shadows of Latin America... for years now. Since I started playing a Physical Adept from Amazonia.

As to the borders... you're right (as far as I could find) about nothing actually saying, but it would seem to me from some text in Aztlan p.41 that Amazonia owns the land around Caracas while Aztlan still controls part(?) of the city. This is just my guess from the context + maps, so use it as you will.

[Jhaiisiin]

I always took Atzlan as all of central/latin america, part of the US and that was it. South America has always been separate in my mind.

That said, pg 106 of the old Atzlan book, the northern border of Atzlan is where we all know it to be, and it looks like it extends all the way down and into columbia. That map you linked, the white portion of the map is where it ends, so Caracas is definitely in Amazonia.

[Tiger Eyes]

Ghost Cartels and Runner Havens both have write ups on Caracas. In short, while it is inside Amazonia's territory, the city itself is a free state.

Ghost Cartels also touches on the border between Amazonia & Aztlan and some of the, er, tension there.

[nezumi]

Best Seatle map I've had the pleasure to use:
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/shadowrun/shad...e.asp?cid=37607

I still don't know why this isn't cross-posted into the Shadowrun-proper area.

[Spike]

There are some really good resources there, guys... THANKS!

I've got all my old core books, but the maps are very non-specific to the actual geography and road layouts so I was more or less eyeballing the real local maps. I am personally gratified to see I wasn't TOO far out of whack, though I was apparently going to expand it significantly without meaning too.

Unless there is a compelling canon reason that I am unaware of, I suspect that a single lahar coming up from Orting (as I stated originally! Go ME!) is all that I need, the other two projected paths look like they'd head into Ft Lewis territory though I should double check that...


While I appreciate all the posts, pointing out the in game boundaries isn't really informative as I'm trying to square the real world geography with the in game geography. For example: While Ft Lewis is south of Puyallup (and yes, they border one another on the Metroplex Map), the primary access routes on and off base are currently all on I-5. While there ARE back roads gates into what would be part of the Puyallup Barrens, there is virtually no traffic through them, and no real population outside them... and for good reason (one has to drive through miles of training area on base to enter or exit those back gates, which are frequently closed for security reasons, and the surrounding area is not worth investing in for the minimal traffic, thus remains back woods 'rural' land). I don't see those reasons changing in the Shadowrun future, particularly with 'Barrens' issue. I will keep an eye out for the old Seattle Sourcebooks... back 'then' I was never much for regional books and I'm paying the price now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

Very much Obliged for the google map (which is what I was trying to do when I posted, btw...) and the Wizkids map (which provides very helpful 'Shadowrun geography to the real world map).

I'm sure I'll stumble on more arcane questions (speaking of: Any background counts assosiated with old lava flows? Magic stuff was always something of a weakness for me....)

[Chibu]

Well, Seattle Sourcebook doesn't mention anything about background counts... but then again it wouldn't have even if there are any, it's really old. But, it does say that talismongers like to go there to gather materials (dead animal bones, rocks, etc) for magical things. In short, there's probably not really much of a background count there. It's pretty uninhabbited as far as it goes, just becuase it's not a nice place to live. There wasn't too much there to begin with, so probably not all that many people really died there. And of those that did? It's been a good number of years by now, so if there was any from that it would probably have faded. I'd give Redmond a higher chance of having background count than down that way.

[Spike]

Can someone clue me in on the Petrowski Farms that occupy a prominant place on the Wizkids interactive map?

[nezumi]

Wow, great find!

http://pl.shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Petrowski_Farms

[HappyDaze]

For example: While Ft Lewis is south of Puyallup (and yes, they border one another on the Metroplex Map), the primary access routes on and off base are currently all on I-5.

But remember, I-5 is too dangerous to use after dark because of all the go-gangs. I guess it's a good thing that the soldiers of Fort Lewis never take their Strykers (or their 2070s equivalents) out onto I-5, because that would just be unrealistic (even though we see it IRL). Besides, in 2070s Seattle, the go-gangs are so bad-assed that the soldiers wouldn't stand much of a chance, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the lava flows, I would say that they should have some background count. Despite their age (which is still not really all that old), they resulted from eruptions directly triggered by the Great Ghost Dance. Sure, some areas may have been cleansed in the following decades, but since the area we're talking about is largely Barrens, I see that as unlikely.

[nezumi]

I suspect soldiers don't take their strykers out because it's unnecessary risk they aren't paid to do. It's like asking why the US doesn't keep marine deployments in place in countries after the embassy is evacuated. It's unnecessary risk. Yes, strykers are pretty tough, but right now we have 50 years evidence that even the greatest military in the world can be brought low, or at least seriously harmed, by basic guerrilla tactics.

When strykers are out in force, the go-gangs would usually give them space, but there's always that possibility they'll get a bit overeager, and either look to harass them through things like IEDs and stray fire from extreme range, or plan an active ambush to claim one or more of the vehicles or equipment.

[HappyDaze]

It all depends on if you want to view the military as a credible threat or not. If you do, then they would not tolerate hostile forces openly operating so close to Fort Lewis. The 2070s Stryker would likely have drone support, tactical-softs/C3 capabilities, and a number of other options that would vastly outgun anything the Ancients - much less any other go-gang - could throw at them.

[kzt]

And it's good practice. Not to mention "You know, guys like that ain’t got no manhood left anyway. So it’s a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

[nezumi]

Keep in mind, Ft. Lewis is not JUST a military fort. It's also the surrounding neighborhood. It's not like you jump over the side of I-5 and you land on military-owned dirt.

[HappyDaze]

It's not like you jump over the side of I-5 and you land on military-owned dirt.

Actually, along a good stretch of I-5, it is just like that. And for the record, IRL I live in DuPont, WA - almost totally surrounded by Fort Lewis, and I work on the base so I know what I'm talking about on this one.

[nezumi]

That's ridiculous. Why would they build a military base so close to a Z-zone?

[HappyDaze]

What's silly is why they would let an area so close to a major base become a z-zone (and not all of it is that bad). Fort Lewis came much earlier than the barrens ever did.

[kzt]

Based on current events, I don't think you are allowed to question why anything in SR is the way it is. Particularly when the obvious answer is that whoever wrote it into the book didn't have a clue, which is obvious answer with about 75% of the things with SR that make you go WTF! Apparently it might hurt the sensitive feelings of the writer and Dev who thought that it was an excellent idea, and we can't have that.

[nezumi]

Looking at the map (c/o Wizkids), on the Puyallup side, half of the map is empty. Looking at google maps, it's mostly forest and rocky areas. The other half is Loveland, an E zone.

Fort Worth is from I-5 to I-7. The area near Puyallup is primarily evergreen forests.

It seems like the ratings across the southern line are basically arbitrary. On the Puyallup side, there's no one there (no food, no residential, no commercial, no money) so there's no reason to enforce it - hence, no enforcement rating. There aren't going to be gangs there because there's nothing worthwhile to steal or, for that matter, eat. It's just empty, and the military can feel free to shoot who it likes there. Highway 507 probably is a reasonably safe highway, although it might be open to stray fire from the south side at points. I doubt go-gangs would go there - it's right next to a military base, and there's not much worthwhile to attack.

On the Fort Worth side, it's again, mostly forest, guarded by men with machine guns. No reason for gangs to go over there. High casualty rate with nothing worth stealing, drinking or raping.