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> Stick-N-Shock, How does this stuff work, once and for all
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2009, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 8 2009, 08:29 AM) *
Street Magic p. 95

"Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit
to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).
Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would
need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so,
and both actions would only require one service (though it
might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining
the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing
at the time)."

Note that you cannot measure the distance to the metaplanes. They are either very far away, or everywhere. How quickly does a spirit get from their metaplane to you? One IP?

Since the Rules don't explicitly state it, you could rule for your own game that a spirit on the metaplane is more then the magic X 100 meters away, and thus on Remote Service. However, that breaks other things like the spirit waiting after summoning in the astral green room metaplane.

The rules also are explicit about spells not being able to be cast across planes. However, there is nothing stated anywhere about spells immediately breaking as soon as astral projection occurs. You can choose to play that way, but until you do find that rule and can cite it to me, I'm not going to. In fact, the little bit that says

"When activated, foci have an astral form and will accompany an astrally
projecting magician to which they are bound. A projecting magician
must activate any foci she wishes to take with her in advance (though
she can deactivate them at any time)."

heavily implies that the activated spell on a foci will in fact carry over, consider the case of a sustaining Foci that has a physical spell in it. (though somewhat questionable since it may not work on the astral plane, whether or not it is useful has little bearing on whether or not it is allowed.)



Thanks for the quotes... Also, I never argues the fact that spells locked in an active foci when you project carry over... in fact, what I said was that you have equipment and metamagic techniques that allow you to do so, in which case, the default would be assumed to NOT allow that to occur UNLESS you had such equipment and/or metamagic techniques... It is an opinion based upon the text that is given... if you could do so all the time, tehre would be no real rason for the equipment or metamagic techjniques...

I have an alternate opinion thatn some of the rest of you , and I am okay with it... If you read it differently, That is okay with me, I am an adult and I can live with it...AS I told Falconer, i am not trying to convert anyone to my ideals, but you could also acknowledge that even if I disagree with you, the way that you play is also an interpretation of the rules and not a writ from on high... We can BOTH be right in this...

Sorry if I Pissed anyone off here... Enjoy...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 9 2009, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Zurai @ Jun 8 2009, 08:53 AM) *
Targeting has literally nothing to do with sustaining. No targeting is required to sustain a spell. You don't have to see who/what you're sustaining a spell on, you don't have to touch it, you don't have to perform any targeting geasa, and so on. So, bringing up the "you can't target across planes" rule is therefor completely irrelevant.

Furthermore, there are examples in the rules of spells and powers being sustained across planes (as DireRadiant points out above). Seriously, TJ, just shut up and sit down. You're only embarrassing yourself.



Thank you for your participation Zurai... it has been most illuminating indeed...
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Michel
post Jun 17 2009, 09:01 PM
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Sorry...

I didn't read the 9 pages and I don't really introduce myself properly...

I've read this forum for a few weeks now and found very interesting stuff... (anybody who posts must say something like this, really rare are the people who say "your forum is sh** but I ask a question...")

So, I had a small question on S&S bullets.

If I shoot with a Predator IV, I have a -1 in AP.
The S&S halves (rounded up) the armor.
Which one comes first?

If the armor is 9 (or any x*2+1), no problem.
Ex: (9-1)/2=4
(9/2)-1=4

But for 8 (or any x*2)
(8-1)/2= 4
(8/2)-1=3

And there it makes a difference...

What is the right way?

Mathematically seen, you first halved and then you substract...

If the first poster follows the discussion, could he edit his first post in order to make a resumee of the answers???

Thanks!
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Larme
post Jun 17 2009, 11:01 PM
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Mathematically, take all your calculations, crumple them up, and throw them away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) SnS ammo completely replaces the weapon's damage code. Ignore the gun's base DV and AP, it automatically becomes 6S(e) -half when you load up SnS.
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Michel
post Jun 18 2009, 08:40 PM
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Well, it makes it all much easier... I hadn't realised the AP was part of the damage code...
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Stormdrake
post Jul 12 2009, 07:22 AM
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Just ran into this tonight with my game. Player is packing Sn'S and is shooting at a force 6 spirit. As I understand it from everything above, the Spirits ItnW is halved to 6 rather than 12. So the player only needs one success (after subtracting any dodge attempts by the spirit) to hit the spirit and over come ItnW. The spirit still gets to resist the damage with its body plus half its impact armor. Why is ItnW even in the game any more if its just defaulting to Hardened Armor Rules? Am I missing something?
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Machiavelli
post Jul 12 2009, 09:48 AM
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I also didn´t read the whole topic, but i overflew the first 2 pages. After checking the rules, i have to admit that Stick n Shock ammo IS quite usefull of getting rid of spirits. If you attack a spirit with a mundane attack, he gets the ITNW-benefits. This means he has a hardened armor of forcex2. Hardened armor can only be bypassed if your (modified) damage code exceeds the armor AND after you applied AP-modifiers. So if you shoot a spirit with a MP (burst mode) you do 7P damage, half impact armor plus your net successes. So the spirit really has to have some serious force, to prevent beeing shot.

This is what the RAW says, but i don´t think that it was in the developers intention to provide such a gimmick. This makes spirits quite vulnerable and a mage becomes obsolete if you deal with magical threats. I can see the SR-future with lot of mages, begging for beeing accepted to join a run "what? you want to come by? Ok, maybe you can do some counterspelling"...naaaa...doesn´t sound good.^^ Never forget, that even APDS-ammo doesn´t provide this "half armor rating" bonus. So SnS is the killer-ammo absolutely.

Did the "officials" already say something about this?
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Zurai
post Jul 12 2009, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 12 2009, 05:48 AM) *
Never forget, that even APDS-ammo doesn´t provide this "half armor rating" bonus.

It does if the spirit is force 4 or less. Hell, a force 2 spirit gets no armor against ADPS.
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Machiavelli
post Jul 12 2009, 02:32 PM
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It is about the fact that stick an shock provides bonuses that even outmatch military armor penetrating ammunition that is nearly impossible to get and highly illegal. There is no balance. I don´t like imbalance. Thats it.
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Stormdrake
post Jul 12 2009, 06:17 PM
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SnS's armor penetrating bonuses are similar to Laser weaponry. Arguably, some of the most advanced weaponry in the game. In Comparison SnS is comparatively cheap, does not suffer from the drawbacks of limited range or issues with smoke and is not going to bring major smack down if you pull it out. Add to this that RAW states that its modified value, which means that SnS loaded into weaponry capable of burst or full auto are going to be able to bypass ItnW for any spirit one could reasonably expect to see in the game. I may be wrong on that last part and would love it if someone proved it, lol.

One thing I did see about my original post is, I said it is resisted with "Body", when it should be "Will'" as this is a stun attack.

My thought is that SnS as RAW has it is severally over powered, with no real flaws that I have read about. While I do not believe it totally negates mages, it does make spirits useless manifested, if any one on the other side is packing these rounds. For my game, I may have to do a house rule changing it from half impact to a AP of -4 to bring it more in line with other ammo.
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 12 2009, 05:48 AM) *
Hardened armor can only be bypassed if your (modified) damage code exceeds the armor AND after you applied AP-modifiers. So if you shoot a spirit with a MP (burst mode) you do 7P damage, half impact armor plus your net successes. So the spirit really has to have some serious force, to prevent beeing shot.


Bonus damage from burst fire does not apply to the modified damage.

Otherwise you could full-auto a spirit to death with a machine pistol.
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HappyDaze
post Jul 12 2009, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE
One thing I did see about my original post is, I said it is resisted with "Body", when it should be "Will'" as this is a stun attack.

Most non-magical sources of Stun damage are still resisted by Body.
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Machiavelli
post Jul 12 2009, 06:30 PM
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In SR2 or 3, they explained it so, that taser rounds overload the nervous system. Because spirits lack something like that, they were useless against them. Maybe we have to reanimate this view.
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Summerstorm
post Jul 12 2009, 06:42 PM
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Exactly... That is my take on it as well. The SnS are more of a refined tool, without having some weakish mortal nervous system, they have what? 20.000 to 80.000 volts at pretty much no ampere? That is not real power.

If it were a lightning strike, or throwing the spirit into a relay-station, or shooting it with a laser (debatable too, since they have no major organs) or some other high-energy trick it would be ok. Don't cling so much to the written rules. A bit of thinking IS allowed. Just ask the first time you have an idea, short debate: GM says: NEVAAAR. And then it's decided.
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 07:14 PM
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The problem with removing SnS as a viable weapon against spirts is when the PLAYER owns the spirit. As soon as some PC summons a force 6 spirit, there is no force owned by mundanes (shy of heavy military weaponry) that can scratch it.
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Redjack
post Jul 12 2009, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 12 2009, 12:30 PM) *
.In SR2 or 3, they explained it so, that taser rounds overload the nervous system. Because spirits lack something like that, they were useless against them. Maybe we have to reanimate this view.
At my table, that is how we see it. SnS are pretty much worthless against any spirit.

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 12 2009, 01:14 PM) *
The problem with removing SnS as a viable weapon against spirts is when the PLAYER owns the spirit. As soon as some PC summons a force 6 spirit, there is no force owned by mundanes (shy of heavy military weaponry) that can scratch it.
A F6 spirit does bring quite a bit of attention just by its presence.
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 12 2009, 03:22 PM) *
A F6 spirit does bring quite a bit of attention just by its presence.


Yes it does. But how long does it take for the military to roll in with tanks?

Longer than it takes the players to do what they came to do and leave, and if not, then where is the military housing their tanks, 7-11?
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Machiavelli
post Jul 12 2009, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 12 2009, 07:14 PM) *
The problem with removing SnS as a viable weapon against spirts is when the PLAYER owns the spirit. As soon as some PC summons a force 6 spirit, there is no force owned by mundanes (shy of heavy military weaponry) that can scratch it.

I think that is what the mage intended it to be.^^ If he survives the drain...
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LurkerOutThere
post Jul 12 2009, 07:58 PM
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Personally stick and shock, and the electrical damage rules have been on my mind a lot lately. It appears to be an ammo with no drawbacks that improves the damage of some pistols and the half armor thing is just rediculous. On top of that the rules about being at -2 dice pools even if you PASS the test, just seem rediculous for something with so little drawback. Why do people even need tasers if evidently the same technology can fit into any sort of bullet.
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Machiavelli
post Jul 12 2009, 08:01 PM
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Nobody knows. Hopefully a developer is looking into this topic and putting this question on the next errata-list.
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 12 2009, 03:58 PM) *
Personally stick and shock, and the electrical damage rules have been on my mind a lot lately. It appears to be an ammo with no drawbacks that improves the damage of some pistols and the half armor thing is just rediculous. On top of that the rules about being at -2 dice pools even if you PASS the test, just seem rediculous for something with so little drawback. Why do people even need tasers if evidently the same technology can fit into any sort of bullet.


The drawback is its high cost compared to standard ammo. Of course, 1 shot of SnS tends to be more effective than a full auto narrow burst of standard ammo for only double* the cost.

*I made that up
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Stormdrake
post Jul 12 2009, 11:06 PM
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So according to RAW ItnW is treated as Hardened Armor which reads that you compare the Modified Damage Value to the armor rating and if its lower you ignore the damage. So why would damage modifiers from full auto or a burst shot not count against ItnW? Don't get me wrong I am not argueing for it but simply seeking to understand the comment.
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Jul 12 2009, 07:06 PM) *
So according to RAW ItnW is treated as Hardened Armor which reads that you compare the Modified Damage Value to the armor rating and if its lower you ignore the damage. So why would damage modifiers from full auto or a burst shot not count against ItnW? Don't get me wrong I am not argueing for it but simply seeking to understand the comment.


Page 142-143 SR4 (~144ish in SR4A I'd imagine)

"Note that this DV [from burst fire] does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."
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Stormdrake
post Jul 12 2009, 11:15 PM
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Thanks Draco18s. That at least removes on bit of sillyness. One other thing I saw eariler in the thread is the assertion that the value for SnS replaces the damage and AP code of the weapon it is loaded into. The discription in the anniversury book says only the damage code is replaced. Did they change something or was the earlier information wrong?
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Draco18s
post Jul 12 2009, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Jul 12 2009, 07:15 PM) *
Thanks Draco18s. That at least removes on bit of sillyness. One other thing I saw eariler in the thread is the assertion that the value for SnS replaces the damage and AP code of the weapon it is loaded into. The discription in the anniversury book says only the damage code is replaced. Did they change something or was the earlier information wrong?


AP would have to replace as well, or else you would have to reconsile -2 AP and -half. There's only one gun that does both (that I am aware of) and only does it because it's intended to be fired at vehicles that have extensive amounts of armor designed to repel such an attack (aka Smart Armor, in the real world known as Ablative Armor or Reactive Armor).
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