4th Edition did hurt my soul..., rant, questions Options

[Cain]

Your viewpoint seems to be that the GM cannot manipulate in-game situations to make certain character builds less effective in certain situations, that it is wrong to do so.

My viewpoint has nothing to do with character builds, but rather with broken rulesets. Fix the rules so you don't have broken characters, you don't have a problem. GM-fiat an artificial in-game balance, and you have problems.

Trying to bring this subject back on topic, I quite clearly remember reading the Maneuver score, and thinking it was borked. I remember reading the Chase Combat rules, and while thinking they were quite an improvement, that they were still borked. The mach 4.6 car was probably the best example of this. The problem was, while the Maneuver score caused a bigger headache, Chase Combat is proving harder to fix. We're having to go further and further outside the ruleset in order to change it.

[Larme]

My viewpoint has nothing to do with character builds, but rather with broken rulesets. Fix the rules so you don't have broken characters, you don't have a problem. GM-fiat an artificial in-game balance, and you have problems.

Your solution isn't a solution, it's just a way of making more problems. There are very few quick and easy fixes for an RPG as complex as Shadowrun. If you consider baseline mechanics to be broken, then you have to write your own version of Shadowrun. Some are willing to expend the time and effort to create their own version, most are not. I consider my way the most practical solution. Instead of calling it broken and beating your face against the wall trying to fix it, just live with it. It's not broken unless you arbitrarily apply that label. If everything powerful is broken, then you would have to fix half the game. Power is not the same as something being unfair or unfun, those are all separate judgments. Obviously, you've made yours, but it's not a foregone conclusion that you're right. IMO, a pile of dice is just a pile of dice. It's the ability to do something really well. There is nothing wrong with someone doing something really well. The one problem you've pointed to is that the invincible socialite gets bored because nothing challenges him. If that's the case, that's his problem and his fault. Some people like to always win at their specialty, and if they do, let them. Just make sure to show them that one auto-win specialty is not enough to auto-win the entire game universe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Admittedly, I'm used to mages with Increase Reflexes is a sustaining focus. YMMV on that count.

But it's still hard to mix up the players and enemies enough of the time for manaball's usefulness to be reduced. You can, however, fix it with a simple rule, such as all direct combat spells use base Force for drain, instead of half Force. Easy enough, and more fair and balanced than trying to shovel enemies into the team's tactical position each and every time.

Sure, at the cost of altering the mechanis for a specific category of spell, which is just useless... I quit 3rd edition because none of the systems were the same... you had a different system for social rolls, for magic, for combat, for technical skills, it was a complete mess...

Give me a more streamlined system any day... any "fixes" can be taken care of by paying attention to the fluff of the universe at that point... Tactical advantage means a lot in Shadowrun, when you lose it, you gotta adapt or die...

as for the Sustained Reflexes, usually the first thing that I get rid of when I am playing a mage and see someone else using it... Counterspelling is a wonderful thing... Gives bonuses to my team and removes the mage as a general threat pretty darn quick, as we always follow the rule of Geek the Mage FIrst... Of Course, YMMV...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And speaking of straw men, you're more guilty of it than I am. My viewpoint really isn't that extreme: it's that certain rules in SR4 are harder to fix than equivalent rules in SR3. For example, the Maneuver Score can be fixed by replacing it with opposed Vehicle test rolls. The pornomancer requires rules fixes, contrived in-game situations, nerfing certain combinations, and so on and so forth. Those are just the examples that spring to mind; I'm sure there are many others.

Just out of curiousity, which maneuver roll is uncontested in your mind...

Chase COmbat Rules on page 161-162 of the BBB...

Make Opposed Test for Position (First roll, required every Turn)
At Step 4, you can declare a Driver Complex Action/Maneuver Stunt, one of which is a Maneuver Test... THIS TEST SHOULD NOT BE OPPOSED as you are using the test for yourself... how is the other pilot/driver gonna influence this test? If the Maneuver is a Split-S aircraft maneuver, it in no way impacts the other pilot at all... if the Maneuver is a RAM it is a melee attack, and therefore it is opposed by default...

What is your argument, because I am lost here?...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My viewpoint has nothing to do with character builds, but rather with broken rulesets. Fix the rules so you don't have broken characters, you don't have a problem. GM-fiat an artificial in-game balance, and you have problems.

Trying to bring this subject back on topic, I quite clearly remember reading the Maneuver score, and thinking it was borked. I remember reading the Chase Combat rules, and while thinking they were quite an improvement, that they were still borked. The mach 4.6 car was probably the best example of this. The problem was, while the Maneuver score caused a bigger headache, Chase Combat is proving harder to fix. We're having to go further and further outside the ruleset in order to change it.

Why are you trying to change it? At the ridiculous speed you have been citing, your pilot checks are going to get you very dead, very fast... you have a relative speed which you still need to take into account when you are making Maneuver tests... in any game that I am in, you would already be at a base of "Extreme" for difficulty (4 Net Hits required) and you better hope that you are in open terrain, if you are in a standard megaplex like Seattle or Hong Kong, your terrain type will probably be a minimum of Light and most likely restricted or tight (+1 to +3 Hits additional) because at that speed, your space compersses pretty damn fast, and your reaction times will not be up to it for very long...

And lets not forget that the Position Test is not a Maneuvering Test... it just sets distance... which you have to overcome sequentially (makes sense, no reference) from Close to Long and then breakoff, If your eventual goal was to evade pursuit......

I have never seen SR4 Chase combat to be as broken as you are stating...

Sorry, But my two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why are you trying to change it? At the ridiculous speed you have been citing, your pilot checks are going to get you very dead, very fast... you have a relative speed which you still need to take into account when you are making Maneuver tests... in any game that I am in, you would already be at a base of "Extreme" for difficulty (4 Net Hits required) and you better hope that you are in open terrain, if you are in a standard megaplex like Seattle or Hong Kong, your terrain type will probably be a minimum of Light and most likely restricted or tight (+1 to +3 Hits additional) because at that speed, your space compersses pretty damn fast, and your reaction times will not be up to it for very long...

And lets not forget that the Position Test is not a Maneuvering Test... it just sets distance... which you have to overcome sequentially (makes sense, no reference) from Close to Long and then breakoff, If your eventual goal was to evade pursuit......

I have never seen SR4 Chase combat to be as broken as you are stating...

Sorry, But my two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The mach 4 car is just an extreme example. In terms of today a moped can't keep up with a sports car. But under the current mechanic a moped is just at X penalty dice for having a different speed. So by the rules magically a moped can keep up with said sports car with good rolls. Now I think as long as you don't try to interpret the rules to strictly it works out okay. In an open freeway the moped just loses, boom done no tests needed. Don't even roll. On a congested highway, make the tests because the sports car wont be able to hit anywhere near its top speed. But by the rules and not using GM fiat the rules can create some really bad situations. Personally I think this is one of the cases where GM fiat to solve the dumb outliers is not a rules problem.

Manaball on the other hand is too core of a combat mechanic to only function well under a pile of modifiers.

[Cain]

There are very few quick and easy fixes for an RPG as complex as Shadowrun.

On the contrary, in SR3 there were many quick and easy fixes for serious problems? Maneuver Score? Replace it with an opposed test. Open tests? Again, replace and be done with it. There aren't many quick and easy fixes for SR4, which I think is the heart of my argument.

Just out of curiousity, which maneuver roll is uncontested in your mind...

I'm referring to the Maneuver Score from SR3. Probably the single worst mechanic I have ever seen for any game system, anywhere. It's overly complex and gives you very abstract results. I despise it.

I don't hate SR4, and I don't universally love SR3. SR4 is better in many ways, and getting rid of the stupid Maneuver Score is one of them.

Why are you trying to change it? At the ridiculous speed you have been citing, your pilot checks are going to get you very dead, very fast... you have a relative speed which you still need to take into account when you are making Maneuver tests... in any game that I am in, you would already be at a base of "Extreme" for difficulty (4 Net Hits required) and you better hope that you are in open terrain, if you are in a standard megaplex like Seattle or Hong Kong, your terrain type will probably be a minimum of Light and most likely restricted or tight (+1 to +3 Hits additional) because at that speed, your space compersses pretty damn fast, and your reaction times will not be up to it for very long...

First of all, Mach 4.6 is an extreme, but real, example from a game I actually played in. Second, the point was that the chasing bikes actually had an advantage on us, according to RAW. We were in a souped-up Westwind, with a top speed of 300, when we had a Force 10 spirit use its Movement power on us. 3000m/turn rouchly equals Mach 4.6. Now, the GM in this case handwaved the escape, but let's look at what would have happened if he had stuck to the RAW.

First of all, the bikes are at a severe penalty, but so are we. Let's call that a wash, and give everyone three dice. Terrain and other threshold modifiers don't apply, since thresholds never apply to opposed tests. We roll the opposed test to start the round. We get one success. Everyone else fails, except for their best biker, who gets two succeesses. Because he won, he sets the range, and everyone moves into Close range. So, despite the huge disparity in speed, they manage to remain within five meters of us.

Next turn. We win the test, and move to Long range. However, we can't Break Off just yet, since we have to stay there for three turns. Next turn, and we lose again. The bikers teleport into Close range (the "Picard Maneuver") and start jumping onto our car. We fight them off, barely.

Now, we get lucky, and win the test three times in a row, then successfully Break Off. This chase has taken five minutes, and we've traveled hundreds of miles. Despite the fact that the bikes' top speed is much less, they stick with us right up to the very end.

This subsystem is a little harder to fix than the Maneuver score. Opposed tests are already factored into the rules, so we can't just switch them out.

[Jhaiisiin]

Wasn't the problem with speed disparities fixed in an errata? *checks* Nope, was fixed in SR4A though. So really, it's a moot point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The mach 4 car is just an extreme example. In terms of today a moped can't keep up with a sports car. But under the current mechanic a moped is just at X penalty dice for having a different speed. So by the rules magically a moped can keep up with said sports car with good rolls. Now I think as long as you don't try to interpret the rules to strictly it works out okay. In an open freeway the moped just loses, boom done no tests needed. Don't even roll. On a congested highway, make the tests because the sports car wont be able to hit anywhere near its top speed. But by the rules and not using GM fiat the rules can create some really bad situations. Personally I think this is one of the cases where GM fiat to solve the dumb outliers is not a rules problem.

Manaball on the other hand is too core of a combat mechanic to only function well under a pile of modifiers.

You know, I can agree with this... as Magic is a great equalizer, you can pull of some crazy things... and for the extreme example, yes, why make the roll if there is an open road, no traffic and the moped is not being amped by magic... but remove any of those circumstances and you may need that roll, if for no other reason than to see if that fool driver moving at Mach 4 on a congested road manages to NOT kill himself and 50 other people...

My 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

On the contrary, in SR3 there were many quick and easy fixes for serious problems? Maneuver Score? Replace it with an opposed test. Open tests? Again, replace and be done with it. There aren't many quick and easy fixes for SR4, which I think is the heart of my argument.


I'm referring to the Maneuver Score from SR3. Probably the single worst mechanic I have ever seen for any game system, anywhere. It's overly complex and gives you very abstract results. I despise it.

I don't hate SR4, and I don't universally love SR3. SR4 is better in many ways, and getting rid of the stupid Maneuver Score is one of them.


First of all, Mach 4.6 is an extreme, but real, example from a game I actually played in. Second, the point was that the chasing bikes actually had an advantage on us, according to RAW. We were in a souped-up Westwind, with a top speed of 300, when we had a Force 10 spirit use its Movement power on us. 3000m/turn rouchly equals Mach 4.6. Now, the GM in this case handwaved the escape, but let's look at what would have happened if he had stuck to the RAW.

First of all, the bikes are at a severe penalty, but so are we. Let's call that a wash, and give everyone three dice. Terrain and other threshold modifiers don't apply, since thresholds never apply to opposed tests. We roll the opposed test to start the round. We get one success. Everyone else fails, except for their best biker, who gets two succeesses. Because he won, he sets the range, and everyone moves into Close range. So, despite the huge disparity in speed, they manage to remain within five meters of us.

Next turn. We win the test, and move to Long range. However, we can't Break Off just yet, since we have to stay there for three turns. Next turn, and we lose again. The bikers teleport into Close range (the "Picard Maneuver") and start jumping onto our car. We fight them off, barely.

Now, we get lucky, and win the test three times in a row, then successfully Break Off. This chase has taken five minutes, and we've traveled hundreds of miles. Despite the fact that the bikes' top speed is much less, they stick with us right up to the very end.

This subsystem is a little harder to fix than the Maneuver score. Opposed tests are already factored into the rules, so we can't just switch them out.

And that scenario is one of the reasons that I do not like SR3... A lot of this has been fixed in SR4/4A in my opinion... you still need a position test, but I would logically say that you cannot increase you position by more than a single range category per round... thus if you have a superior speed advantage, you will probably begin at Long range (depending upon initial variables and lead time) to start with and remain there until you broke it off and escaped... after many chase scenes in our games, this has been the way that htey have progressed... after several minutes, someone manages to escape, longest chase scene took about 10 rounds to finally escape and it was because I had to evade multiple pursuers from multiple vectors (we were flying)... it worked out wonderfully and did not take overly long to accomplish in real time...

Oh well, Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Malachi]

First of all, Mach 4.6 is an extreme, but real, example from a game I actually played in...

Ok, public service announcement concerning the Chase Combat rules because it really sounds like no one gets this except me: you don't have to use them. The Chase Combat rules are an option provided for people that don't want (or don't care) to calculate exact speed and position for vehicles every Combat Turn. If it's really that important to you to have the exact vehicle positions and such, just run the thing as regular combat. Calculate the exact distance between the vehicles as you would the distance between people in non-vehicle combat. Use the current Speed value of the vehicles to determine how far they move each Combat Turn and update their relative positions. There's your "easy fix" Cain: just use Tactical Combat, and ignore Chase Combat.

[Muspellsheimr]

Ok, public service announcement concerning the Chase Combat rules because it really sounds like no one gets this except me: you don't have to use them. The Chase Combat rules are an option provided for people that don't want (or don't care) to calculate exact speed and position for vehicles every Combat Turn. If it's really that important to you to have the exact vehicle positions and such, just run the thing as regular combat. Calculate the exact distance between the vehicles as you would the distance between people in non-vehicle combat. Use the current Speed value of the vehicles to determine how far they move each Combat Turn and update their relative positions. There's your "easy fix" Cain: just use Tactical Combat, and ignore Chase Combat.

Try again. The Chase Combat rules are and included as core rules.

Rules as Written, there is no 'optional' about it.

If you do not want to use it in your game, whatever. That would be a House Rule.

[Matsci]

Try again. The Chase Combat rules are and included as core rules.

Rules as Written, there is no 'optional' about it.

If you do not want to use it in your game, whatever. That would be a House Rule.

There is nothing saying you have to use chase combat for any situation involving vehicles. Chase combat "is designed to abstract vehicular combat between multiple vehicles moving at high speed over a longer time frame and across larger distances than tactical combat. "

If your vehicle combat is occurring at low speeds, or across short distances and/or short times, you might as well use tactical combat.

[Cain]

And that scenario is one of the reasons that I do not like SR3... A lot of this has been fixed in SR4/4A in my opinion... you still need a position test, but I would logically say that you cannot increase you position by more than a single range category per round... thus if you have a superior speed advantage, you will probably begin at Long range (depending upon initial variables and lead time) to start with and remain there until you broke it off and escaped... after many chase scenes in our games, this has been the way that htey have progressed... after several minutes, someone manages to escape, longest chase scene took about 10 rounds to finally escape and it was because I had to evade multiple pursuers from multiple vectors (we were flying)... it worked out wonderfully and did not take overly long to accomplish in real time...

That scenario was in SR4. Granted that an equivalent scenario under SR3 would have been much more difficult to run, but the relative speeds of the vehicles were a stronger factor, including ludicrous speed differentials. Allowing only one range change per category is a house rule, and not according to RAW.

SR4.5 adds in a speed differential, but not a strong one. A moped could still keep up with a sports car, even with the penalty.

I'm glad it worked for you once, but ten minutes of flying is still a long time for a combat to run. Ten rounds on the table usually translates into an hour and a half of real time. I should also add that multiple pursuers from multiple vectors doesn't matter in chase combat: the winner of the opposed test determines where everyone goes. So, if the guy in the helicopter wanted to Picard Maneuver the moped right next to your van, he could.

There is nothing saying you have to use chase combat for any situation involving vehicles. Chase combat "is designed to abstract vehicular combat between multiple vehicles moving at high speed over a longer time frame and across larger distances than tactical combat. "

Trying to keep track of the relative positions of vehicles in tactical combat is a nightmare, even with a tac map to help you. The one strength of Chase Combat is that it abstracts it all for you. Anytime you have fast-moving vehicles, you practically need chase combat if you don't want to perform advanced calculus to figure out where everyone is.

[Mäx]

Trying to keep track of the relative positions of vehicles in tactical combat is a nightmare, even with a tac map to help you. The one strength of Chase Combat is that it abstracts it all for you. Anytime you have fast-moving vehicles, you practically need chase combat if you don't want to perform advanced calculus to figure out where everyone is.

Not really in your problem example, your car is 3km that way from the starting point and the chacers are over 2km behind you, next turn their 5km behind and the chase is over.

[Malachi]

Trying to keep track of the relative positions of vehicles in tactical combat is a nightmare, even with a tac map to help you. The one strength of Chase Combat is that it abstracts it all for you. Anytime you have fast-moving vehicles, you practically need chase combat if you don't want to perform advanced calculus to figure out where everyone is.

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want everything accurate, you have to keep track of everything. If you want it fast, then you have to abstract it and live with the fact that not everything will be perfect all the time because its abstracted. SR4A added in the relative speed penalty which takes care of the most ridiculous cases of people on bicycles keeping up with cars, and it also now states that range can only be changed by 1 increment. The Chase Combat rules are written given the overall assumption that the is terrain and/or intervening obstacles involved in the chase such to the point that driver skill plays more of a factor than the raw speed of the vehicles. If the moped catches up with a sports car, then perhaps that moped driver cut through an area of traffic/terrain that the sports car had to go around and thus was able to travel a much shorter distance. The rules are fast and abstract, you basically roll the result and then reverse-engineer the reason for that to happen. If you want to nit pick every little thing, then run it as tactical combat.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You know, I can agree with this... as Magic is a great equalizer, you can pull of some crazy things... and for the extreme example, yes, why make the roll if there is an open road, no traffic and the moped is not being amped by magic... but remove any of those circumstances and you may need that roll, if for no other reason than to see if that fool driver moving at Mach 4 on a congested road manages to NOT kill himself and 50 other people...

My 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

That will teach me to use the term magically on a SR board. Sorry, I was not trying to say the moped was magically powered. I was trying to say for no logical reason the moped could keep up. I can't remember the 4a penalty off hand, but I think its like -1 die for ever 10 difference in max speed. So lets say the mopeds max speed is 50 and the cars is 150 that is a -10 dice penalty. -10 dice will probably handle the issue,. but a bad roll like 1 success by the cars driver vs 2 successes on the moped with maybe just 2 dice left in the mpeds pool after penalty and the moped keeps up. Its a silly outcome in almost any situation, even sillier on the open road. Now I think in extreme cases it just calls for the powerful GM created element Handwavium, and you are good. In closer cases the system actually works out fairly well. In any open road case top speed is top speed in my book.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That scenario was in SR4. Granted that an equivalent scenario under SR3 would have been much more difficult to run, but the relative speeds of the vehicles were a stronger factor, including ludicrous speed differentials. Allowing only one range change per category is a house rule, and not according to RAW.

SR4.5 adds in a speed differential, but not a strong one. A moped could still keep up with a sports car, even with the penalty.

I'm glad it worked for you once, but ten minutes of flying is still a long time for a combat to run. Ten rounds on the table usually translates into an hour and a half of real time. I should also add that multiple pursuers from multiple vectors doesn't matter in chase combat: the winner of the opposed test determines where everyone goes. So, if the guy in the helicopter wanted to Picard Maneuver the moped right next to your van, he could.


Trying to keep track of the relative positions of vehicles in tactical combat is a nightmare, even with a tac map to help you. The one strength of Chase Combat is that it abstracts it all for you. Anytime you have fast-moving vehicles, you practically need chase combat if you don't want to perform advanced calculus to figure out where everyone is.

No argument shere, just pointing out that the Chase Combat rules have worked for us quite well..., I mentioned multiple behicles, because that adds to teh difficulty of the chase combat resolution (+1 Threshold for each vehicle after the first, If i remember correctly, at least in SR4)...

And yes, keeping track of vehicles on the tactical level is dsifficult, at best, if you have more than a few vehicles... Which is why we use Chase Combat I am sure...

2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That will teach me to use the term magically on a SR board. Sorry, I was not trying to say the moped was magically powered. I was trying to say for no logical reason the moped could keep up. I can't remember the 4a penalty off hand, but I think its like -1 die for ever 10 difference in max speed. So lets say the mopeds max speed is 50 and the cars is 150 that is a -10 dice penalty. -10 dice will probably handle the issue,. but a bad roll like 1 success by the cars driver vs 2 successes on the moped with maybe just 2 dice left in the mpeds pool after penalty and the moped keeps up. Its a silly outcome in almost any situation, even sillier on the open road. Now I think in extreme cases it just calls for the powerful GM created element Handwavium, and you are good. In closer cases the system actually works out fairly well. In any open road case top speed is top speed in my book.

Yeah, on an open road, the matter of relative distance soon becomes moot... especially witrh high speed differentials... Handwavium indeed...

[Cain]

No argument shere, just pointing out that the Chase Combat rules have worked for us quite well..., I mentioned multiple behicles, because that adds to teh difficulty of the chase combat resolution (+1 Threshold for each vehicle after the first, If i remember correctly, at least in SR4)...

And yes, keeping track of vehicles on the tactical level is dsifficult, at best, if you have more than a few vehicles... Which is why we use Chase Combat I am sure...

2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

I can't recall the rule either, but thresholds don't apply in opposed tests, so it's kinda a moot point.

Chase combat works withing a narrowly defined set of parameters. Try and add in some other factors, such as a sniper, and you have trouble. Neither tactical nor chase combat does a good job of mixed pedestrian/vehicle combat. Fixing this is hard, since you'd have to abstract all distances in all combat in order to make it work. You can have the best of both worlds, but you'd need to rewrite much of the combat section in order to pull it off.

This is why I say it's harder to fix SR4 than SR3. The Maneuver score was crazy, but could be replaced easily. Chase Combat is hardwired into the core combat mechanic, so it's harder to fix without redoing a lot of the combat section.

[Malachi]

Neither tactical nor chase combat does a good job of mixed pedestrian/vehicle combat.

What's wrong with Tactical Combat? I run it all the time with people and drones and it works just fine.

[Chibu]

So... I'm curious. (And I apologize in advance for asking lol)...


What was wrong with Manaball again? I think I missed something...

[DireRadiant]

I can't recall the rule either, but thresholds don't apply in opposed tests, so it's kinda a moot point.

Chase combat works withing a narrowly defined set of parameters. Try and add in some other factors, such as a sniper, and you have trouble. Neither tactical nor chase combat does a good job of mixed pedestrian/vehicle combat. Fixing this is hard, since you'd have to abstract all distances in all combat in order to make it work. You can have the best of both worlds, but you'd need to rewrite much of the combat section in order to pull it off.

This is why I say it's harder to fix SR4 than SR3. The Maneuver score was crazy, but could be replaced easily. Chase Combat is hardwired into the core combat mechanic, so it's harder to fix without redoing a lot of the combat section.

That's an interesting problem with the mix of tactical and chase combat. Personally I'd just switch between the two as needed. Start out with a vehicle chase, as soon as the vehicles enter the sniper's area, switch to tactical combat, then switch back to chase as they leave the snipers range.

[DuctShuiTengu]

So... I'm curious. (And I apologize in advance for asking lol)...


What was wrong with Manaball again? I think I missed something...

It's not manaball so much as direct combat spells in general. They completely bypass the target's armor. At normal forces, this is a minor issue, but overcasting allows a mage to throw down massive amounts of damage with their spells, as long as they're willing to deal with the Drain. Also, with manaball being a mana spell, it's resisted with willpower - frequently one of the lower stats for many characters. Add in that it's area of effect and a mage can potentially clear an entire group of enemies with a single casting. Of course, all of this is further compounded by the tendency of posters to assume that the mage in question will - through huge scores in their drain attributes, bioware such as platelet factories to reduce damage, and immediate access to highly-skilled first aid - be able to reduce the drain to negligible amounts. While access to the above isn't entirely unreasonable, it results in the 7 physical drain from overcasting a force 10 manaball gets treated as something akin to a stubbed toe, rather than the low-end rifle round to the face that would be a closer comparison for the amount of damage they're subjecting themself to.

[Chibu]

It's not manaball so much as direct combat spells in general. They completely bypass the target's armor. At normal forces, this is a minor issue, but overcasting allows a mage to throw down massive amounts of damage with their spells, as long as they're willing to deal with the Drain. Also, with manaball being a mana spell, it's resisted with willpower - frequently one of the lower stats for many characters. Add in that it's area of effect and a mage can potentially clear an entire group of enemies with a single casting. Of course, all of this is further compounded by the tendency of posters to assume that the mage in question will - through huge scores in their drain attributes, bioware such as platelet factories to reduce damage, and immediate access to highly-skilled first aid - be able to reduce the drain to negligible amounts. While access to the above isn't entirely unreasonable, it results in the 7 physical drain from overcasting a force 10 manaball gets treated as something akin to a stubbed toe, rather than the low-end rifle round to the face that would be a closer comparison for the amount of damage they're subjecting themself to.

Oh ok. I don't agree that is a problem then. No I'm not going to talk about it though. It will only make this thread more stupid and rediculous than it already is. Thanks for answering though! ^-^