4th Edition did hurt my soul..., rant, questions Options

[Larme]

It's not preferences, but it is expectations.

I'm skeptical that you can actually draw a principled distinction between preferences and expectations. Preferences are what you like, expectations are more like a minimum standard that you want to be met. But in both cases, they are based on personal opinion, not on objective standards. Calling it preference means that it's not right or wrong, it's up to the individual. That's no different from an expectation -- someone's expectations cannot be right or wrong, it's up to them. Expectations can by high, low, realistic, unrealistic, whatever, but they cannot be right or wrong, exactly like preferences. Calling something a preference isn't derogatory, it's simply a way of saying "you're not any more right or wrong than me." On whether SR3 or SR4 is better, it's ultimately a matter of taste, whatever you call it. All we can do on a board is discuss what objective advantages and disadvantages we think it has, but in the end that cannot prove anything. You cannot put their strengths and weaknesses on a scale and weigh which one wins. What we're trying to do, I think, is help the OP understand things about SR4 that he clearly doesn't understand yet, perhaps helping him to appreciate the features of the game.

[mfb]

The use of ONLY dices as modifiers. No open tests anymore, no modifiers to the difficulty? That takes so much sweet complexity and realism (And still isn't really a faster system now) This mechanic i completely dislike.

this is the worst part of SR4, to me. SR3's dice-vs-TN mechanic had a number of flaws, but most of those could be easily remedied. SR4's dice-only mechanic has, to me, an insoluble flaw, in that difficulty scales linearly with ability. in simple terms, a hard task is as easy for a skilled character as an easy task is for an unskilled character. i do not find this model to be realistic; since realism is a trait i value in my SR gaming, SR4's dice mechanic is a flat-out dealbreaker.

other complaints, like hard attribute and skill caps, i dislike but could swallow if it weren't for the dice mechanic. when all is said and done, SR4's dice mechanic is the reason i no longer purchase SR products.

[Glyph]

P.P.S
Why have some Archetypes more than 200 BP in attributes if it is clearly stated that 200 is max for 400BP chars. They break their own advisements... (Yeah i know the book is more of a guideline)

Ah well, i stop my rant now. Hi to all boardmembers, and sorry to have my first post be so late and... ranty.

Your other questions seem to have been addressed, so I will field this one. The 200 point cap is only for the eight physical and mental Attributes, not the special ones (Edge, Magic, and Resonance). The archetypes are confusing because when they list Attribute costs, they list the combined cost for all Attributes, including the special ones. If you look at them carefully, you will see that none of them go over the 200 point cap for physical and mental Attributes. But as usual for archetypes in any edition, they have a number of errors, and range from playable to atrocious.


Also, a quick note on manipulation spells. They have (element) aura and (element) wall in Street Magic.

[Dwight]

this is the worst part of SR4, to me. SR3's dice-vs-TN mechanic had a number of flaws, but most of those could be easily remedied. SR4's dice-only mechanic has, to me, an insoluble flaw, in that difficulty scales linearly with ability. in simple terms, a hard task is as easy for a skilled character as an easy task is for an unskilled character.

Whoa, hold on. That isn't an accurate assertion. One die to make Threshold 1 is a much higher percentage roll (50%) than two dice to make Threshold 2 (25%). As you go up the scale on the pool size the easier tasks are easier and the harder tasks are harder. When you factor in the effect of having modifiers from your equipment, operating environment, and Edge this non-linear behavior becomes even more apparent as things bend quickly one way and another.

@Summerstorm

What Open Tests were used for is generally replaced in SR4 with opposed rolls. So you aren't actually dealing with a fixed Threshold there. Now what you say about fixed Thresholds is sort of true in that it's not the strongest point of the dice mechanic. The nature of die pool dice mechanics in general is such that opposed rolls are their strong point, and SR4 is no exception to that. Use opposed rolls wherever feasible.

[Dwight]

On all the takes on Deutschland SR fans further up the thread, the single in-the-flesh German born fellow (he emigrated to North America as an adult) that I know that is also a long time Shadowrun player is all for ditching pre-SR4 for SR4 rules. He plays with his English speaking wife so it is possible that he's never even picked up the German language SR4 core book. That could be, following from someone's post above, a partial factor in this?

P.S. Or maybe the real reason he's here is because long ago he was booted out of the Fatherland because they recognized him as not really being a true German? I kid, I kid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Larme]

this is the worst part of SR4, to me. SR3's dice-vs-TN mechanic had a number of flaws, but most of those could be easily remedied. SR4's dice-only mechanic has, to me, an insoluble flaw, in that difficulty scales linearly with ability. in simple terms, a hard task is as easy for a skilled character as an easy task is for an unskilled character. i do not find this model to be realistic; since realism is a trait i value in my SR gaming, SR4's dice mechanic is a flat-out dealbreaker.

Wait, let me parse that. A hard task is as hard for a skilled character as an easy task for the unskilled character. That's... common sense, isn't it? For example:

It is a pretty hard task to run a mile in 5 minutes, only a person in good shape can do it. I'm "unskilled" because I'm not in good shape, so it's very hard for me. A professional runner, on the other hand, is very skilled. A 5 minute mile is his warm-up. It is easy for him. What's the problem with that? Are you telling me that's not how it works in real life?

Take another example: target shooting. I've never shot a rifle before. It is hard for me to hit the dead center bullseye. An expert shooter, on the other hand, can hit it very reliably. Easy for him, hard for me.

Hard tasks are always easier for more skilled people. That's just plain common sense. It's true in SR3, too. A guy with 2 dice is very very unlikely to hit TN 8. A guy with 6 dice, on the other hand, has a darn good shot at it. Hard for guy with 2 dice, easy for guy with 6 dice.

I see this over and over again, people complaining about both the realism and the math of the dice systems, and getting both of them back asswards every time. Not only that, but it's kind of flabbergasting to see people saying that one D6 system is more realistic than another. Does anyone seriously think you can represent the world with dice? Especially with just one type of dice? No dice system is realistic. When real people use their skills, there is often no element of chance whatsoever. It is entirely dependent on dozens of factors that you could never represent with a PnP system. We use dice because it's a fast way to determine success and failure, not because there's anything realistic about it whatsoever.

[Falling Icicle]

I for one will try to get the shamans and magicians seperated again, especially their spirits. I always liked the difference between their methods of summoning, and their different costs and uses.

I initially felt the same way when I looked at the 4e magic rules. But the more I've thought about it, the more I like how it is now. I mean, really, why do an Air Elemental and a Spirit of the Sky need to be totally different? I also like how the rules aren't totally biased toward Shamans now. Hermetics used to get hosed. They had to spend 10s of thousands of nuyen on formals, while shamans only need a few hundred nuyen lodge. Hermetics using lodges will take a bit of getting used to, but I don't really mind. I just think of it as their library or the place where they have all their magic circles inscribed on the ground and such. When you think about it, all magical traditions use sites of power, though they are very different in appearance.

Also i find the hardcap of attributes and skills... laughable. (Let's say a Initiated magician with power foci and stuff has a magic rating 12, he overcasts magic on power 15 or so... can pretty much explode houses at will... but he cannot give a human the strength of a troll?)

They had to put some limit on it, geez. Even now people can roll 20+ dice on actions. It doesn't need to be any more ridiculous.

And actually, the wording of the spell has me believe that it can boost an augmented attribute past that limit. "This spell increases an attribute (natural or augmented) on a voluntary subject."

Initative: All people get their action in the FIRST initiative pass and AFTER that all faster people keep going? WHY??? It is completely possible (but unlikely), that an unmodified (but fast) guy can shoot a Move-by-Wire Dude in the face, before that dude can do anything. And after that he ceases to do anything, while the faster people do stuff. This is completely turned upside down.

This is also how it worked in SR3. They just simplified it by calling them initiative passes. And beleive me, as someone who played SR2, I am VERY glad for this change. Nothing was worse than playing a full magician in those rules, and sitting there, twiddling my thumbs while I waited for the street samurai and physads to go 6 times before I got to act once. Often the battles would be over before I even got to act. Realism be damned in this case, I like rules that let everyone participate.

The use of ONLY dices as modifiers. No open tests anymore, no modifiers to the difficulty? That takes so much sweet complexity and realism (And still isn't really a faster system now) This mechanic i completely dislike.

Things can modify the threshold (difficulty) as well.

The "vanishing" of elemental manipulation spells... which became the "indirect" combat spells.... this is just grrrr. (I wanted to make a sustained, aimable stream of elemental damage, it was possible in SR3, but now??? I work around it now with a kind of "elemental wall" spell, and hope the GM will take my solution.

I've always thought the "elemental manipulation" spells should be combat. Manipulation is already the largest, most versatile and most powerful of the spell categories. It doesn't need to steal the thunder from the combat category. And FYI, there are still elemental wall spells, in Street Magic, and they're manipulation.

Ah well, but i liked the splicing of Agi-Reflex and Logi-Intuition. Good move.

That's funny. This is actually one change I found totally unnecessary and don't like.

P.P.S
Why have some Archetypes more than 200 BP in attributes if it is clearly stated that 200 is max for 400BP chars. They break their own advisements... (Yeah i know the book is more of a guideline)

The 200 point limit only applies to physical and mental attributes. The costs for sample characters also includes Magic, Resonane and Edge, which don't count toward that limit.

[hobgoblin]

Also, when its a "sure thing", dont roll, just trade in the dice for hits.

That is, 8+ dice in the pool, 2 hit threshold, and no stress? trade and move on.

If the gm refuses under those conditions, said gm is being an asshole...

I think the problem people have with the SR4 dice system is the hard caps, not the hits mechanic itself.

With no caps on skills, and a open TN system, one could technically play the same game forever, with the GM shifting the TN's as needed, and throw in the odd prime runner or similar with character+1 dice...

I got to admit tho, there is one thing i'm sad to see go with the transition to SR4, the combat pool and friends.

They added a tactical element to the game that was fairly unique to shadowrun. One was always wondering, should one go all out or save up some dice for the defense?

[hobgoblin]

I've always thought the "elemental manipulation" spells should be combat. Manipulation is already the largest, most versatile and most powerful of the spell categories. It doesn't need to steal the thunder from the combat category. And FYI, there are still elemental wall spells, in Street Magic, and they're manipulation.

technically, SR4 is back with SR2 on this, as SR2 had combat spells with elemental effects (hell, fireball showed up in SR2 BBB without any definition of a elemental effect and had to be brought in line with the rest in grimoire 2).

manipulation spells have been the collection bucket for anything that would not fit in the other categories...

err, checking my books, i see that elemental effects could be put on both combat and manipulation spells in SR2, with the funny effect of having a fireball (combat) and fire strike spell (manipulation) doing exactly the same, and with the same drain code...

[mfb]

Whoa, hold on. That isn't an accurate assertion. One die to make Threshold 1 is a much higher percentage roll (50%) than two dice to make Threshold 2 (25%). As you go up the scale on the pool size the easier tasks are easier and the harder tasks are harder. When you factor in the effect of having modifiers from your equipment, operating environment, and Edge this non-linear behavior becomes even more apparent as things bend quickly one way and another.

thresholds are non-linear, but they cap off quickly. modifiers are completely linear.

It is a pretty hard task to run a mile in 5 minutes, only a person in good shape can do it. I'm "unskilled" because I'm not in good shape, so it's very hard for me. A professional runner, on the other hand, is very skilled. A 5 minute mile is his warm-up. It is easy for him. What's the problem with that? Are you telling me that's not how it works in real life?

Take another example: target shooting. I've never shot a rifle before. It is hard for me to hit the dead center bullseye. An expert shooter, on the other hand, can hit it very reliably. Easy for him, hard for me.

these are not hard tasks. a hard task would be shooting at something a kilometer away, at night, without vision mods. a top-end SR4 shooter can do that as easily as a low-skill SR4 shooter can hit an unmoving target. a top-end SR3 character would find such a task quite difficult.

[Dwight]

thresholds are non-linear, but they cap off quickly.

Not if you ignore that singularly bizarre bit of advice for generic, unspecified Tests that you shouldn't set a Threshold higher than 4. Given that a number of individual Skill descriptions have tables explicitly going higher than 4, as well as a number of other places where there are Threshold modifiers and formulas to calculate Thresholds that can easily push to a total well higher than 4, that line in the rules text is one of the most puzzling and suspect entries in the book.

Opposed rolls are still the optimal way to go but there is quite a bit of range in Thresholds, if you are willing to use them.

P.S. I haven't read the SR4A PDF yet. Can anyway say if they modified that part of the text to give more appropriate advice?

modifiers are completely linear.

How do you figure that? What exactly do you mean by "linear" in that phrase? What correlation do you see as linear?

[Mäx]

these are not hard tasks. a hard task would be shooting at something a kilometer away, at night, without vision mods. a top-end SR4 shooter can do that as easily as a low-skill SR4 shooter can hit an unmoving target. a top-end SR3 character would find such a task quite difficult.

What's excatly is unrealistic about that.
And hardest part about that has nothing to do with characters shooting skill, that being actually seeing what you're going to shoot.

[Blade]

Most of the French players I know made the switch to 4th ed, and I haven't seen many players who hate the new edition.

Personally, I welcomed 4th ed and like it better than 3rd, but I had never been much into rules anyway, so I liked the fact that now I wouldn't forget to apply half the rule or forget how they should be applied.

But you know, after playing a lot of 3rd and a lot of 4th ed games, I have to admit I haven't seen many differences. The only two that come to mind (except for the "I don't look through 3 books to apply all the rules and apply them correctly") are:
- The Hacker does for the team what the NPC decker did in 3rd ed, and a bit more too.
- Characters get damaged more often and sometimes quite badly, even with good armor.

[mfb]

How do you figure that? What exactly do you mean by "linear" in that phrase? What correlation do you see as linear?

one point of skill = one point of modifiers, in either direction.

What's excatly is unrealistic about that.
And hardest part about that has nothing to do with characters shooting skill, that being actually seeing what you're going to shoot.

if you're unclear on what's unrealistic about being able to reliably hit a kilometer-distant target at night with no vision mods, i'm not sure how to explain it to you. and if being able to see the target has nothing to do with shooting skill, then why do vision modifiers affect shooting rolls?

[hobgoblin]

given that sr3 have infinite skills, would not the shooter eventually have enough dice to make said shot?

[Dwight]

one point of skill = one point of modifiers, in either direction.

That's an intermediate step, having in itself no relevance. Whether you succeed or fail is what matters. The percentage of success in the important part, right? That has a decidedly non-linear relation.

if you're unclear on what's unrealistic about being able to reliably hit a kilometer-distant target at night with no vision mods, i'm not sure how to explain it to you. and if being able to see the target has nothing to do with shooting skill, then why do vision modifiers affect shooting rolls?

This wouldn't happen to still be that same heavily flawed example you were giving years ago, is it? Where your particular choice of interpretation of the rules and the scenario gave the results you took umbrage with? Your response here sure sounds a lot like that's the problem.

P.S. Are you still not playing 4e?

[mfb]

given that sr3 have infinite skills, would not the shooter eventually have enough dice to make said shot?

sure, if they were an IE.

That's an intermediate step, having in itself no relevance. Whether you succeed or fail is what matters. The percentage of success in the important part, right? That has a decidedly non-linear relation.

most combat tests are threshold 1.

This wouldn't happen to still be that same heavily flawed example you were giving years ago, is it? Where your particular choice of interpretation of the rules and the scenario gave the results you took umbrage with? Your response here sure sounds a lot like that's the problem.

i had no "interpretation" of the scenario--i'm the one that crafted the scenario. and no one ever showed how my interpretation of the rules was flawed. most of the counterarguments that were made were along the lines of "well, the GM should just disallow it".

i play 4e when i can't find a 3e game, which is rarely enough. regardless, as this discussion and every possible variant on it have all been done to death many times over, i don't think pursuing this current incarnation any further will do anyone any good. seeya.

[Larme]

i had no "interpretation" of the scenario--i'm the one that crafted the scenario. and no one ever showed how my interpretation of the rules was flawed. most of the counterarguments that were made were along the lines of "well, the GM should just disallow it".

i play 4e when i can't find a 3e game, which is rarely enough. regardless, as this discussion and every possible variant on it have all been done to death many times over, i don't think pursuing this current incarnation any further will do anyone any good. seeya.

The GM is the only thing that keeps a game from sucking horribly. You can whine about how the system relies on GM discretion, but that's the way it is. If it wasn't, you could roll a Lucky Shot to shoot a world leader from 200000 meters away, without knowing where he is, using a holdout pistol. Just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean the GM has to allow it. If you truly can't accept that proposition, I have no idea how you could ever play an RPG without it turning into a fight.

[mfb]

The GM is the only thing that keeps a game from sucking horribly. You can whine about how the system relies on GM discretion, but that's the way it is. If it wasn't, you could roll a Lucky Shot to shoot a world leader from 200000 meters away, without knowing where he is, using a holdout pistol. Just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean the GM has to allow it. If you truly can't accept that proposition, I have no idea how you could ever play an RPG without it turning into a fight.

ha! "arguments" like this, where people make wildly unwarranted assumptions and leaps to dubious conclusions--such as the idea that because i don't like having the GM intervene in every difficult shot, i must not want the GM to ever intervene in any situation--are part of why i decided to stop posting here. the fact that you chose to insult me for the grave offense of posting my opinion in a thread where opinions were solicited really seals the deal. thank-you for the reminder.

[Warlordtheft]

@OP
Your problem is a simple one. You are German. You have played a game for several year and it was very comfortable. Now (like severeal years ago) a new iteration of this game apears and it is quite different in ways you are unable to comprehend (seriously, the Magic Tradition thingy is a prime example of Germans beeing utterly unable to comprehend or even recognize abstract rules), a scary thing. Another thing Germans tend to do A FUCKING LOT is to houserule something they have never ever played.

Dude-chill....it is not just a german thing. I know alot of gamers (roleplayers and hardcore wargamers) in the U.S. that do the same thing when confronted with a new ruleset.

My advice to the OP-try it for at least 5 sessions RAW and then see how the game goes. Your opinion of it might change.

[The Jake]

this is the worst part of SR4, to me. SR3's dice-vs-TN mechanic had a number of flaws, but most of those could be easily remedied. SR4's dice-only mechanic has, to me, an insoluble flaw, in that difficulty scales linearly with ability. in simple terms, a hard task is as easy for a skilled character as an easy task is for an unskilled character.

Ummm you are aware that is a mechanic in game called THRESHOLDS designed precisely to reflect this?

Hitting a Threshold 5 with a dice pool of 2 (avg attribute 3, defaulted skill test, assuming it isn't extended), is a no win. With edge, maaaaybe....

- J.

[Larme]

ha! "arguments" like this, where people make wildly unwarranted assumptions and leaps to dubious conclusions--such as the idea that because i don't like having the GM intervene in every difficult shot, i must not want the GM to ever intervene in any situation--are part of why i decided to stop posting here. the fact that you chose to insult me for the grave offense of posting my opinion in a thread where opinions were solicited really seals the deal. thank-you for the reminder.

I didn't assume anything. I said, if you can't accept it, precisely because I didn't know whether you could or not. If you can accept that basic proposition, then nothing I said applies to you. Sorry if I gave offense, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. But there are those who have made the argument. Some have said that you can shoot someone inside of a tank by using a called shot to ignore armor, and then rolling a Long Shot cuz the -30 dice takes you to 0 dice. They think that it's wrong for the GM to say, "But it's a tank, that called shot is unavailable." You may not be one of those people, but the argument you posted made me think that you very well could be. I used hyperbole, but the purpose was not to insult you, it was to highlight the absurdity of the argument I thought you were making. If you're not making any argument of the sort, then I'm the first to admit I was wrong.

[hyzmarca]

SR4 characters start at much lower power than SR3 characters, generally speaking. It's intentional.

Have you seen some of the builds posted here?

Generally, a competently built SR4 character is going to be substantially more powerful than a SR3 character constructed with the same degree of competence. The intent was to lower the power level, but that wasn't the actual effect.
The actual effect can be summed up in one word: Pornomancer.

The real advantage of the SR4 build rules is that they allow greater design synergy. In SR3, you'd generally max out a few important skills, leading to characters who have a 6 in pistols but no other firearm skills, and such. This isn't nearly as common in SR4.

[Larme]

Have you seen some of the builds posted here?

Generally, a competently built SR4 character is going to be substantially more powerful than a SR3 character constructed with the same degree of competence. The intent was to lower the power level, but that wasn't the actual effect.
The actual effect can be summed up in one word: Pornomancer.

The real advantage of the SR4 build rules is that they allow greater design synergy. In SR3, you'd generally max out a few important skills, leading to characters who have a 6 in pistols but no other firearm skills, and such. This isn't nearly as common in SR4.

Are we playing the same game? Everything is more pricey in SR4. I did the math. Skills cost more in terms of total BP, and are less important. Attributes cost more in terms of total BP, and there are more of them to buy. An SR4 character can have certain pools stacked sky high using bonus dice, sure. But your overall skillset is a lot narrower, simply because dice cost more than they used to. That's unavoidable. Not to mention nuyen -- we get 1/4 as much. Our money buys more, but not 4x more. So samurai are going to be less crammed with ware, and will thus start with a lot more room to grow on that front. I think the builds like pronomancer are corner cases, they don't represent the general overall power of SR4 builds. SR4 builds are less powerful simply because you start with less absolute resources. There's just no circumventing that math...

[Glyph]

SR4 characters can start out more powerful relative to everything else in the game. Other than that, the two editions are too different to really compare directly. The one thing I do miss about SR3 is the skill monkey with 50 points in skills - you can't really get that in SR4 (I don't consider skillwires the same thing).