I Hate Form-Fitting Body Armor, My armor houserules. Options

[Draco18s]

Reactive Armor in game terms is smart armor, or more accurately 3rd edition's ablative armor.

[Draco18s]

Reactive Armor in game terms is smart armor, or more accurately 3rd edition's ablative armor.

[HappyDaze]

For those that want to argue that layers of soft armor accomplish little IRL, remember that SR armor values represent two things: (1) the qualtity of protection on the areas of the body covered with the armor, and (2) the amount of the body so protected by the armor. Even if (1) is only getting a minor increase from layering, (2) is certainly increasing. Does this realistically amount to getting full value from secondary pieces? Probably not, but doing so keeps the math simple. It also provides for a more survivable game and since I've seen too many SR characters go from 'perfectly fine' to 'perfectly fine red mist' after a single opponent's first IP, that's a positive change in my eyes.

[kzt]

For those that want to argue that layers of soft armor accomplish little IRL,

Soft armor is incredible effective IRL. But that because it STOPS bullets. It doesn't slightly reduce the damage from pistol bullets (like SR shows), it stops them. And better yet, it armors the area that is easiest to shoot at, which is the torso. [Yeah people can get bruised etc, but that is typically minor and severe cases are typically minor overmatch - where the bullet is still stopped but the backface deformation is excessive due to the armor not being rated for the weapon]

Without a hit location system you are better with just messing with the armor values to produce an outcome you like rather then go into the sillyness of allowing layering armor so you look like the Michelin man.

The main issue you have with real life armor is overmatch. Once you go slightly over what the armor can stop the armor provides essentially no protection. I saw a USMC study that suggested you actually can sustain more severe injuries from armor that is unable to stop a bullet than from being shot without armor.

[HappyDaze]

The main issue you have with real life armor is overmatch. Once you go slightly over what the armor can stop the armor provides essentially no protection. I saw a USMC study that suggested you actually can sustain more severe injuries from armor that is unable to stop a bullet than from being shot without armor.

Interesting, but it's also another example of where I don't feel a need to represent something accurately in game. I like the overall simplicity of SR's armor system - I just don't like the stacking 'wonder' properties currently restricted soley to FFBA, so that's why I opened them up to other armor types.

[Kerenshara]

For those that want to argue that layers of soft armor accomplish little IRL, remember that SR armor values represent two things: (1) the qualtity of protection on the areas of the body covered with the armor, and (2) the amount of the body so protected by the armor. Even if (1) is only getting a minor increase from layering, (2) is certainly increasing. Does this realistically amount to getting full value from secondary pieces? Probably not, but doing so keeps the math simple. It also provides for a more survivable game and since I've seen too many SR characters go from 'perfectly fine' to 'perfectly fine red mist' after a single opponent's first IP, that's a positive change in my eyes.

Simple math.

*re-reads the cover of the BBB*

Nope, still says Shadowrun.

*laughs until they fall out of the chair, rolling on the floor, howling as tears of mirth dampen the carpet*

Figuring up a 1/2 for next lowest and 1/4 for least is a joke compared even to just character creation, much less determining maximum jump distances for a physical adept. And the "minor" increases, while useful, would probably quickly be out-striped by the encumbrance penalties. If you need that much armor, get heavier armor. People talk about full-auto fire of APDS ammunition like it's bottled water going down the drain. Mil-spec armor is hard to get, and obvious as hell. But if you think you're being subtle shinnying over to the StufferShack^TM at three in the morning wearing a long coat over an armored vest worn over armored clothing with the "must-have" FFBA for underwear, think again, omae. Illegal or no, EVERYBODY is going to want to know why you feel the need to wear that much gear, and the Star is going to have serious questions about what ELSE you feel the need to be carrying... And if Mil-Spec armor can't stop it, no amount of "stacked" armor is going to beat an integrated "Armor System" like those full up suits. That's just reality (*chokes*), and it factors into the game.

The original printing of L5R was supremely deadly, and some people (mostly DnD players) felt it was unplayable. Real combat IS extremely deadly, and the weapons in Shadowrun aren't black powder flintlocks. They are using powders, primers and breech materials fifty years ahead of our current best. Even standard ammunition is going to be fabulously lethal. A good shadowrun is one where you never fire a shot. Just like L5R encouraged role playing and diplomacy over brute force and violence, Shadowrun seeks to encourace creativity and guile over those same factors. Brute force and violence is for un-named NPCs who don't need to do anything more creative than break somebody's knees to steal their boots. At least, that's my take on it.

As a side note, last night our "samurai" (What the heck kind of self-respecting samurai has an essence of 3.1? *snicker* I love bioware.) sucker punched a troll body guard, and had enough initiative to hit him a second time (after wound penalties) before he could go again. He knocked the guy cold, with some physical transfer. He's not built for melee, per-se. Even hand-to-hand unarmed combat is that lethal in this system, as it should be for trained martial artists.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Just like L5R encouraged role playing and diplomacy over brute force and violence, Shadowrun seeks to encourace creativity and guile over those same factors. Brute force and violence is for un-named NPCs who don't need to do anything more creative than break somebody's knees to steal their boots. At least, that's my take on it.

Is there any evidence that it's more than just your claims?

[Kerenshara]

Is there any evidence that it's more than just your claims?

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for. Very lethal systems discourage combat as a first sollution. L5R called for tact and diplomacy in character to AVOID fights (Medieval Fantasy Japan); Shadowrun is about what ammounts to crime for proffit, and getting around the various protections of the target(s) without force requires guile (sneakiness) and creativity.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is there any evidence that it's more than just your claims?

Not sure where you are going here... what point are you trying to make?

[Traul]

Interesting, but it's also another example of where I don't feel a need to represent something accurately in game. I like the overall simplicity of SR's armor system - I just don't like the stacking 'wonder' properties currently restricted soley to FFBA, so that's why I opened them up to other armor types.

I this is what you want, maybe you'd better just nerf FFBA a bit intead of changing the whole system. If you just added half the FFBA level to armor when layering, that would make the full body one +3/+1. That is good, but not better than a +2/+2 helmet.

[Method]

Along the same lines: I was suggesting that if you are going to deviate from the RAW in such a way as to make armor more effective (albeit a minor change), you might consider curbing armor in some other way just to bring things back to center.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for. Very lethal systems discourage combat as a first sollution. L5R called for tact and diplomacy in character to AVOID fights (Medieval Fantasy Japan); Shadowrun is about what ammounts to crime for proffit, and getting around the various protections of the target(s) without force requires guile (sneakiness) and creativity.

Unless you want to use force to get to the target...

Not sure where you are going here... what point are you trying to make?

...Which is my point: that entirely contradicts my entire experience with Shadowrun. From my perspective, and from the perspective of the three DMs I've regularly played with, Shadowrun's a game about shooting people right in the face for money. Oh, sure, sometimes you don't plan to, or even want to avoid to, but it always ends up back at cash-related facial ballistics.

[kzt]

...Which is my point: that entirely contradicts my entire experience with Shadowrun. From my perspective, and from the perspective of the three DMs I've regularly played with, Shadowrun's a game about shooting people right in the face for money. Oh, sure, sometimes you don't plan to, or even want to avoid to, but it always ends up back at cash-related facial ballistics.

And how often are you having PCs killed or burn edge to not die?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

And how often are you having PCs killed or burn edge to not die?

Never, actually, though we've come close a few times.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

In RL, soft body armor does stop 'some' bullets from penetrating. However, take your finger and jab it into your body about three inches deep and that is about what you can expect to experience in RL. Funniest video I ever saw was this reporter wearing a vest being shot on camera to show just how good body armor is. Yes, it stopped the bullet, but for about a minute after that the reporter was only able to give a random list of expletives that he knew.

I am a paintballer (mainly woodsball) and on those occasions that I play speedball, I wear a padded vest and slider shorts. That combined with my law enforcement experience I can tell you that softbody armor makes you sweat like a pig. It literally drains the bloody life force out of you. Soldiers in the mid-east wearing that stuff (their version is actually heavier and bulkier) really deserve a frickin medal! I don't know if you want or can adequately model that factor into SR, I say the best idea is that you have the players go and try paintball in the heat of the sumer wearing a chest protector. After which, ask if their character is still wearing FFBA in August in Atlanta?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Yes, because it's the future and they solved those problems.

Can we stop bringing the RL stuff in now?

[KCKitsune]

I don't know if you want or can adequately model that factor into SR, I say the best idea is that you have the players go and try paintball in the heat of the sumer wearing a chest protector. After which, ask if their character is still wearing FFBA in August in Atlanta?

Uh, Bob, you have to remember, this is Shadowrun. In this universe they have come up with Handwavium Unobtanium technology that will allow great body armor that keeps you cooler (or warmer if need be) than if you were in an air conditioned home.

[Kerenshara]

Unless you want to use force to get to the target...

...Which is my point: that entirely contradicts my entire experience with Shadowrun. From my perspective, and from the perspective of the three DMs I've regularly played with, Shadowrun's a game about shooting people right in the face for money. Oh, sure, sometimes you don't plan to, or even want to avoid to, but it always ends up back at cash-related facial ballistics.

I have had similar experiences with some GMs... and it's almost always for a single session before I politely make my excuses and never return. In a game like that, any kind of supporting character winds up feeling slighted for ... what did somebody else here call it? Spotlight time? In earlier editions of Shadowrun, the decker was frequently either an NPC or handled off-camera from the rest of the party's perspective, because the matrix rules were in depth and matrix-time had no direct mesh with combat-time. Now it's integrated into the IP system, and the 'decks are wireless, so the decker's along for the run again. The rigger, also, can be with you as you enter, not holed up in her control van. If you're focused on "facial ballistics" (Which, by the way, is a cute turn of phrase), where does your face come in, or the sneak specialist. And if you haven't gotten to deal with the astral rules, et. all, you've missed a big piece of the 6th world. Back in SR2, the Fields of Fire sourcebook focused on paramilitary and mercenary "high intensity" conflict, and did a respectable job with it. But then it's a COMBAT medic, or a COMBAT decker, or a COMBAT rigger or what have you - people with a build emphasizing capability under fire, not social stress. I can see that kind of focus with a campaign like that, but "facial ballistics" jobs aren't usually where the big nuyen is. Now, a "hit" isn't the same thing, but if the target is lightly enough protected that a small band of 'runners can do a simple smash-and-grab, it's not going to make Johnson reach deep into her pockets to fund the 'run. I am not saying that the potential for violence isn't inherent - that's why we carry guns. But the point of a 'run shouldn't be an excuse to discharge your weapons. Who is it here that has that wonderful signature where one 'runner says it was a perfect run, in and out with no shots; then the samurai asks what's the fun in that and the rigger suggests they drive around the block so they can shoot at go gangers, and the sammy replies with enthusiasm? Yes, this will make the sammie feel less important on many runs, but when 'run DOES go sour, the samurai (and their kin) are the unquestioned heroes (if they do their job right) making sure everybody else gets out. The other night, my team ran into a packed (ork and troll mosh pit) concert to extract a speciffic comlink, and I wound up spending the entire time, even after a rival gang kicked off an un-related firefight inside while my team was there, up on a rooftop with my sniper rifle to make sure of a clean extraction if it fell in the pot. It wasn't a big emphasis on me, but I did what would be important to my character, and every other character felt better knowing the moment they got outside they would have artillery support to help them break contact.
It's your group, and you can play the way you choose to. All I am saying is that if your typical run really involves "facial ballistics" (I still like that, I think I will have to borrow it) for money, you're missing something in the world. If your only interest in the gear section can be summed up as "Guns ('n' ammo), Armor 'n' 'Ware", if the only part of The Awakened World that was of interest were the powers and combat spells, and you just skimmed The Wireless World, you're missing out on a huge section of the beauty, the magesty and the splendor (in all its squallor and misery) of the 6th world and all it has to offer and explore.
What you're describing reminds me a lot more of R.Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020.

[Cthulhudreams]

I personally consider this scenario to be facial ballistics: you're breaking into a corporate facility and the rozzers take exception to that and try and stop you, and you shoot them.

YMMV obviously. Spotlight time is important, and thats why its critical to negoitate with your players before a game - a GM who lets you turn up with a purely supporting character in a combat centric game has done poorly by you.

[Kerenshara]

Uh, Bob, you have to remember, this is Shadowrun. In this universe they have come up with Handwavium Unobtanium technology that will allow great body armor that keeps you cooler (or warmer if need be) than if you were in an air conditioned home.

They haven't solved EVERY problem. Yes, the armor is vastly lighter, more flexible and more breathable than anything we have or are even working on today. Materials science is beginning to accleerate the way computer science was picking up speed in the late eighties and early nineties, so I am sure most of the "wearability" issues will have been addressed. But things like "breathability" and "active thermal response" are best handled in direct or very near proximity with the skin. Putting a "breathable" vest over another piece of armor doesn't allow the first piece to "breathe" properly. They just ARE NOT DESIGNED TO WORK TOGETHER. That goes for joint design too. And how well do you think you can grasp your wiz assault rifle when you can't make your arm cross your body for the bulk of the extra armor? FFBA is unique in that is is DESIGNED to work with other armor, suplementally. It is tailored (read the description) to ensure no loss of mobility or binding at the joints, allow it to "breathe" properly and exhibit proper "active thermal response" UNDER another layer of (possibly very thick winter) clothing, and the other armor on top is still close enough in to function normally without interference. That is why it is the exception. It's not the one "rule breaker" produced by one corp to trump all others; It is designed to get around the limitations the rules represent in a very speciffic fashion. It's not a total freebie, either. Don't think samurai - think decker. Body 3 means the scrag can only wear Ballistic protection values up to 4 with the half-body suit before she starts to take encumbrance penalties! So - again, without penalties - people with an AVERAGE body can't wear anything heavier than armored clothing over the half-suit FFBA. That's not really game-breaking. And there ARE some other armors (SecondSkin comes strongly to mind) described that a GM might feel inclined to allow FFBA-esque benefits for stacking and/or encumbrance benefits to. And I would even go so far as allowing 1/2 the lesser armor to be added for things like great/longcoats over a vest or clothing armors - but I would still add full encumbrance. For a troll, it's not really an issue because of their massive stature and titanic strength; Then again, for a troll, not much else IS an issue besides head room, clearance, doors, weapon grips, elevator control pads, AR gloves, toothpaste tubes, chopsticks...

[Kerenshara]

I personally consider this scenario to be facial ballistics: you're breaking into a corporate facility and the rozzers take exception to that and try and stop you, and you shoot them.

Well, to use your own example, the idea would be to try to break in WITHOUT the rozzers being the wiser, because they can't take exception to what they don't know. When your attempt fails, that's where facial ballistics come into play, and why a smart team has some sort of sammie on every run. I think we can agree on that much, right?

YMMV obviously. Spotlight time is important, and thats why its critical to negoitate with your players before a game - a GM who lets you turn up with a purely supporting character in a combat centric game has done poorly by you.

If the GM is really INTENTIONALLY running a campaign like that, as Tsuyoshikentsu suggests, then yes, they have done a complete dis-service to you by letting you bring in a "fifth-wheel" character. I am suggesting that Shadowrun isn't REALLY combat-centric as presented. Combat (as in the "smell the Cordite^TM" variety) is a very important facet, but so are things like astral recon (and occasionally, combat), cyber legwork (and occasionally, combat), stealth, social engineering, fast-talking, smuggling, study and training, lifestyles, transportation, disinformation, strategy and tactics. A smash-and-grab requires minimal skill breadth, and thus commands a much lower fee. The ability to accomplish the mission without the opposition being the wiser is something which Johnson is much more willing to disperse funds for, since they can send you against MUCH tougher targets with far less fear of reprisal (you're not the only one who can figure out who Johnson really works for, neh?) from the target than when the team advertises their presence with gunfire.

[Cthulhudreams]

I think you've missed the point of the orginial remark - he even says that you may not plan on killing anyone but sometimes that just happens anyway (usually when the plan is derailed in a big fireball)

[Kerenshara]

Is this the quote you're referring to? It's the one I'm responding to, primarily.

Which is my point: that entirely contradicts my entire experience with Shadowrun. From my perspective, and from the perspective of the three DMs I've regularly played with, Shadowrun's a game about shooting people right in the face for money. Oh, sure, sometimes you don't plan to, or even want to avoid to, but it always ends up back at cash-related facial ballistics.

I think you've missed the point of the orginial remark - he even says that you may not plan on killing anyone but sometimes that just happens anyway (usually when the plan is derailed in a big fireball)

The two of you aren't saying the same things at all. THIS statement is perfectly in line with what I have described - not intending to go in shooting unless it "happens" due to things going wrong, as they frequently do. I have been on lots of "busted" runs. That doesn't mean we don't keep shooting for gold every time anyway. Tsuyoshikentsu seems to imply that Shadowrun is all about going in guns blazing, especially if you compare it to the remarks THEY are responding to.
Does the distinction I am trying to draw make sense?

[Warlordtheft]

I hate the layering of armor as well. 1st-it defeats the purpose of the heavier armors. 2nd-(GM hand wave, not in RAW)It is obvious (FFBA being the RAW exception). 3rd-the agility and reaction penalties for layering armor should counteract any gain for having said armor.

4th-Gun play in SR4 is still dangerous (though in SR2 the farm was really cheap!) and the fact of the matter is if a group gets ambushed they are dead. It doesnt really matter if they heavy armored or not (unless the ambushers are a bunch of gangers with streetline specials and knives, then maybe).

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Yes, because it's the future and they solved those problems.

Can we stop bringing the RL stuff in now?

SR4 pg. 315 "Thanks to monofilament ballistic fabrics, spiderweave threads, ceramic-titanium composite plates, and liquid armor packs to cover non-rigid areas, modern armor is light-weight, flexible, and concealable."

SR4 pg. 316 "Urban Explorer Jumpsuit: Ideal for messengers, athletes, and anyone on-the-go, these colorful jumpsuits are well ventilated for lots of action but surprisingly protective with light-weight deniplast and liquid reactive armor."

Out of the armor listed, one is stated to be well ventilated (and with pretty good protection).

Uh, Bob, you have to remember, this is Shadowrun. In this universe they have come up with Handwavium Unobtanium technology that will allow great body armor that keeps you cooler (or warmer if need be) than if you were in an air conditioned home.

Here is the best part though, if you are running a SR game, your armor can be whatever you want. I am just giving my take on armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)