Bow House Rules?, Because Bows seem pretty broken to me... Options

[Mäx]

Let's start with the baseline unaugmented Ork/Dwarf max damage for the bow, 10P before extra successes to hit (For comparison, the Vibroblade Sword, the biggest melee weapon that exists in 2070 comes up just short of 9P).

Vibro sword's almost 10P when using both hands and 12P with couple of martial arts

Unaugmented Troll: 12P (For comparison, in melee this guy almost reaches 10P)

13P

Augmented Ork/Dwarf: 14P (not quite 11 in melee)

14P

Augmented Troll: 17P (melee is capping out at almost 13)

16P

Augmented Minotaur with Exceptional Strength & Genetic Optimization: 21P (not quite 15 in melee)

18P

You made it a Ghoul too? Are you insane?: 26P (melee almost makes it to 17)

20P

So that bow gets better damge then melee only at Augmented to max Troll level.
Or if we make her a physical adept(magic 6) with couple of martial arts wearing hardliner gloves those numbers become
19P,20P,21P,23P,25P and 27P so better even at that super Ghoul Minotour level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Critias]

Only starting from the first post, Critias (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...nor have they been for quite some time

That was seventy some-odd posts ago. Conversations, even arguments, evolve over time. Right now it really reads like most people are just saying "I like them because ________________," or "I don't like them because ____________," over and over again. To me, it seems as though game balance itself hasn't really been the issue for quite a while, so much as just the concept of a bow, in particular, doing ________________.

What if the same exact stats -- same exact stats -- were applied to a slingshot? So that you had Trolls firing a slingshot for damage exceeding, and range near, the most top of the line ranged firearms in the game? Ignoring notions of concealability and ammo capacity and blah blah blah, looking only at the logic of a slingshot doing about the same damage as a burst of autofire from an assault cannon, at about the same range?

Would that seem a bit "off"' to you? Perhaps not imbalancing a game, perhaps not necessarily an auto-win in combat, perhaps still with some downsides, etc, etc...but just the idea of a slingshot doing more damage than an assault cannon round?

That's what bugs me about bows. Not that I think my game will break because of them, but just that I dislike the feel of an archaic, muscle-powered, weapon having the range and damage of a top-of-the-line heavy weapon.

[Falconer]

This one? I didn't find an explicit answer in there. But anyway, everybody seems to agree that firing a bow is a simple action and can be done twice per turn, no matter how it works exactly. I can live with that.

Why not? To be fair, compare a munchkin with another munchkin: STR 10, an anchor in each foot, a gyro stabilizer in the arm, and we haven't even talked about the gun yet. Compensating all the recoil of a full burst is not more difficult than building a tree-throwing bow.

Yes that's the one!

Anyhow it's not quite 2 per turn. W/o the martial art you can only load and fire once per IP.
1 free, 2 simple per pass... nothing to do w/ the free.
Simple Ready action, Simple Fire... that's 1 arrow per pass...

Once you add Krav Maga, it gets funky as now you can use that free action to ready the weapon
So free - ready, simple -fire, simple - ready. NEXT PASS... Simple - Fire, Free - Ready, Simple - Fire... rinse and repeat.

That was pretty much the consensus. If the bow is 'loaded' and ready to fire at the start of the pass... yes 2 shots. If it's not you get 1 shot and the bow can end the pass loaded and readied for the next pass.


On your second point... not quite... there's some huge drawbacks to burst fire rules. In some cases, you can't compensate all the recoil. And heavy weapons have a double dice penalty for uncompensated recoil. Also the biggest problem w/ burst fire is that additional damage only goes toward damage soak... it doesn't raise the damage of the test against the armor rating (important against vehicles and spirits), if your basic weapon damage (w/o burst) isn't high enough to get it up over the threshold value you do no damage... no matter how fast you can splatter spitwads at it.

Also most of those weapons are hard as hell to get (and to buy ammo for!). And also very expensive to boot. So it's not quite that cut & dried.

[BullZeye]

What if the same exact stats -- same exact stats -- were applied to a slingshot? So that you had Trolls firing a slingshot for damage exceeding, and range near, the most top of the line ranged firearms in the game? Ignoring notions of concealability and ammo capacity and blah blah blah, looking only at the logic of a slingshot doing about the same damage as a burst of autofire from an assault cannon, at about the same range?

A slingshot can reach to same speeds as an arrow but the weight of the bullet is typically a lot lower. So sure, if you manage to get a stone or iron ball to fly the same speed with a slingshot than an arrow, then why not would it make heck of a dent. Though it's AP would be +something. It would possibly knock a person down but it would not be able to penetrate a modern armor. And you are talking about hand catapult or trebuchet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That's how you break down big walls, too. But if staying on the "normal scale", the slingshot isn't as powerful as a bow.

Hence, to compare a slingshot and bow you have to take into account that those two are quite a different effectiveness. Both would be deadly in the hands of a hulking troll, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But one would come again to the "distinct style"-problem.

Yes, it's a matter of liking and not liking, but saying something is broken is bit different. The argument has gone more on the like/dislike but the main point was it broken or not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A huge & strong troll can throw/sling objects with terrifying power, far greater than a normal human ever could. With the adept powers, you can even toss playing cards doing more damage with it than an assault cannon. Does that break a game? No, not really. That guy will be a one trick pony, though with a kick of a mule^4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I myself would pick for such a troll as weapon of choice: ice cubes. Good luck tracking water (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) Slingshotting ice cubes... a character idea for someone?

[Stahlseele]

A Minotaur Ghoul Adept with a Bow . .
There's THREE DIFFERENT KINDS OF MAGIC IN THERE!

[Muspellsheimr]

On your second point... not quite... there's some huge drawbacks to burst fire rules. In some cases, you can't compensate all the recoil. And heavy weapons have a double dice penalty for uncompensated recoil. Also the biggest problem w/ burst fire is that additional damage only goes toward damage soak... it doesn't raise the damage of the test against the armor rating (important against vehicles and spirits), if your basic weapon damage (w/o burst) isn't high enough to get it up over the threshold value you do no damage... no matter how fast you can splatter spitwads at it.

You also forget to mention that weapons fired in FA (which includes Long Bursts) cannot take advantage of a Called Shot.



The original SR4 bows are overpowered (yes, I know from in-game experience).
The SR4A 'fix' is poorly done, but effective (to a point).

The only man-portable weapons capable of matching the damage capability of a 14STR archer are Full-Auto HMG's. The HMG must deal with Recoil (double uncompensated), takes a Complex Action to fire (the bow can be staged down to Simple + Free), cannot increase damage through a Called Shot, & is usually much louder.

At the more extreme ranges, only expensive high-end vehicle main guns can match the portable, silent bow.

[Muspellsheimr]

Vibro sword's almost 10P when using both hands and 12P with couple of martial arts

9P / 11P

13P

12P

Or if we make her a physical adept(magic 6) with couple of martial arts wearing hardliner gloves those numbers become
19P,20P,21P,23P,25P and 27P so better even at that super Ghoul Minotour level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Using another overpowering option in comparison does not support your interpretation that the bow is not overpowered.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or if we make her a physical adept(magic 6) with couple of martial arts wearing hardliner gloves those numbers become
19P,20P,21P,23P,25P and 27P so better even at that super Ghoul Minotour level.

I have a hard time comprehending such damage capabilities... The closest I have ever gotten to such extremes was with a Bow (admittedly) Strength 10 (Base 12p Damage)... other than that, Guns are the way to go... I am not questioning the math per se, but the reasoning for obtaining that level of damage... Why?

[overcannon]

I have a hard time comprehending such damage capabilities... The closest I have ever gotten to such extremes was with a Bow (admittedly) Strength 10 (Base 12p Damage)... other than that, Guns are the way to go... I am not questioning the math per se, but the reasoning for obtaining that level of damage... Why?

Killing great dragons.

[Mäx]

9P / 11P

No, DuctShuiTengu was converting AP to DV at 3 to 1 ratio.
so those are 9 2/3P and 10 2/3P so almost 10P/12P as i said, same for the rest.

Using another overpowering option in comparison does not support your interpretation that the bow is not overpowered.

Wasn't really trying to say that, I was just correcting his highest vibrosword damages and pointing out that using unarmed instead you can actually have better damage in melee then a bow has.
I know their both overpowering options.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Killing great dragons.

So..... How many have you run into in your games?

I have yet to actively oppose ANY Great Dragon, at least knowingly... now, I have encountered one or two in my years as a Shaodwrunner, but never once did I have the feeling, or inclination, to actually try and kill one... And in fact, had I attempted such a suicidal task, I would have been dead long before I could have done anything meaningful to the target in question...

[Legs]

So I sent an email to my player that I was planning to switch to a house rule of bow dmg = Str/2+2.

Here was his reply:

Your rule would reduce the damage, though it would reduce it so much that the disadvantages would completely outweigh the advantages. A bow isn't concealable, requires a ready weapon action for every shot and, if the shooter isn't careful, leaves behind shafts and arrowheads with serial numbers and possibly fingerprints/DNA on them.

In today's world bows kill things at close range with about the same efficiency as a hunting rifle, so the (STR MIN)+2 gives realistic results for your average human. So instead of changing the equation, how about we say that standard arrowheads function as flechette ammo? Armored targets would have a lot more protection that way. Bodkins points would be the APDS equivalent for bows, but subject to the same legal problems as APDS ammo for guns and harder to get due to rarity (exotic materials and a very niche market would really drive production down).

This seems problematic to me and I'm still trying to rework it to make my player happy but also to reign things in to the point i'd be happy with.

Thoughts?

[Stahlseele]

If your only Problem with Bows is their ability to function as anti tank missles, that is good.
Not THAT good, but good. If you have a Problem with the sheer DV, then that won't work at all.

[Legs]

My problem is with both.

My solution (STR/2)+2 would also apply to range because I find the bow range as listen in the rulebook to be a bit broken as well.

[p4rtridge]

I had a similar experience a while back, a troll archer. His exact stats escape me at the moment, but i recall his strength was around 14, agi of 5-ish and he had maxed archery skill w/spec in bows, so essentially.....14 dice to shoot, then base dv of 16.
We were doing a space setting, and we were being followed by a space adaptation of the GMC banshee, and our troll threw on a spacesuit and hopped onto the outside of our craft.(he had magnetic boots by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) He then fired one explosive tipped arrow, which proceeded to fly through the cockpit of the other craft and land in the chest of the pilot. Our troll took down a spaceship. Oi.

[paws2sky]

I had a similar experience a while back, a troll archer. His exact stats escape me at the moment, but i recall his strength was around 14, agi of 5-ish and he had maxed archery skill w/spec in bows, so essentially.....14 dice to shoot, then base dv of 16.
We were doing a space setting, and we were being followed by a space adaptation of the GMC banshee, and our troll threw on a spacesuit and hopped onto the outside of our craft.(he had magnetic boots by the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) He then fired one explosive tipped arrow, which proceeded to fly through the cockpit of the other craft and land in the chest of the pilot. Our troll took down a spaceship. Oi.

Now that is Awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

-paws

[Stahlseele]

Yes, in Space, as long as you Brace, Power is Might

[BullZeye]

If the troll had gone outside with something like an assault cannon or sniper rifle, the result would have been quite different... No oxygen, no explosion, no bullet/projectile launched (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Smart troll (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Chibu]

Actually, you should (in my opinion, since they can) double or tripple the armor for things that were made for space. Because well, who wants to die from a stray micro meteor? Any hull puncture is disastrous. don't belon

[JaronK]

Honestly, a pointed tip object of similar size to a troll arrow moving at very high velocity hitting a spacecraft today would blow a hole through it anyway, so I don't see the problem. That actually makes perfect sense.

JaronK

[Stahlseele]

Only MicroMeteorites are stopped by Space-Ship stuff as of today. Sandparticle size, and not much bigger.
Any meteor the size/weight of an arrow will punch straight through most things manmade up there.

[Larme]

Shooting in space is actually kinda nuts when you think about it. Whether it's an arrow or a gun, anything you fire in space will continue on its trajectory at the same velocity forever, unless it hits something or gets pulled by gravity. In theory, if I'm in space, I can literally shoot the moon with an ordinary gun (provided it's got an oxygen supply, anyway). Might take a long time to get there, but it will...

[Falconer]

If the troll had gone outside with something like an assault cannon or sniper rifle, the result would have been quite different... No oxygen, no explosion, no bullet/projectile launched :) Smart troll :wobble:

It would pay to actually learn your science before posting.

Smokeless powders carry their own oxidizers. They can function in space. The vast majority of propellants contain their own oxidizers because in the confined area of a breach you have no ventilation to get a significant airflow to oxidize the reaction. lThe bigger problem is the recoil and ballistic trajectories (orbital mechanics can seem a little wierd at first). Frankly, I'd expect laser weapons to be the norm in space. (ammo is heavy and it takes fuel to lift it up, and to propel it around).


Frankly, while cool... I would have slammed the troll w/ one hell of a situational mod to actually fire the arrow accurately. (the -6 for extended range, and another -6 or so, because gravity and orbital mechanics... go ahead and do it... and spend edge.


As far as my issues w/ bows in game... same as the other guy. It's the anti-tank levels of damage which bother me pre-eratta.
I think they should be in the same regime as a combat axe, and I'd have zero issues if they had the same damage code as an axe or sword and half the range they currently do. (dam code is made up for by the fact that w/ krav maga the bow can fire 50% faster than a sword or axe).

[BullZeye]

It would pay to actually learn your science before posting.

Smokeless powders carry their own oxidizers. They can function in space. The vast majority of propellants contain their own oxidizers because in the confined area of a breach you have no ventilation to get a significant airflow to oxidize the reaction. lThe bigger problem is the recoil and ballistic trajectories (orbital mechanics can seem a little wierd at first). Frankly, I'd expect laser weapons to be the norm in space. (ammo is heavy and it takes fuel to lift it up, and to propel it around).

I stand corrected, though there seems to be a lot of different opinions what would actually happen. Guess this haven't been tested too often. No ventilation and no oxygen is two quite different things. Yes, the bullet has enough oxygen to ignite, but what would then happen? I don't know and it's been way too long since I studied physics... and it's not really that important. The guy shot with a bow and the whatever it hit was destroyed, end of story (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

edit: I did some more reading about the subject and it's actually far more complicated than that. One has to take into account the temperature which is far from easy in space. It was said somewhere that a operating temp in space equipment was from -160C to +200C, which guns might not enjoy. The materials used in the gun and ammo play a huge role there and could cause all kinds of effects. Another major role is the operation of the gun, bolt action rifle and a revolver would most likely be most "reliable" choices in space (my guess). I would not allow a player to shoot a normal gun in space without casing the weapon in some kind of "normal" atmosphere. Stick the gun in a box or something would help already. I don't think there's too many experiments made on this subject and I don't think it's such an important matter in science that it would be tested.

[Stahlseele]

Temperature in Space can, if i don't misremember again, vary from -200° celsius to +200° Celsius, depending on where the sun shines.
Yes, there can be a Temperature Difference of about 400° Celsius in just some centimeters of distance from each other.