If You Are Both Invisible And Levitated... Options

[Shadowfox]

By RAW, it's -6 for blind fire. My mage was in a little duel (just practice) with another street sammie, and took the -6 and still killed him, and he said how would that make any sense if they didn't know he was a mage, that he would get lucky with a single SA shot and hit him in the air.

So...how should I do this?

[Muspellsheimr]

1) You must be aware of your target's presence & general location to fire at said target at all.

2) If you are unable to see your target, you receive a -6 Blind Fire penalty to your attack, and use Intuition in place of Agility. For most samurais, this often results in ~-10 to -12 overall.

[Psikerlord]

I agree with M. Also if the sam can get a bead on your location, you might as well take cover rather than levitate away (unless he's a melee type). I think cover will also help keep you alive by subtracting further dice from his attack (not sure, don't have my books with me right now)

[Zenyen]

Any Sammie worth his salt would have either ultrasound or radar to nullify invisibility anyway.

[Machiavelli]

Is it absolutely sure that improved invis. doesn´t work against this kind of perception? How about silence spells? would they work?

[Blade]

IIRC, invisibility doesn't exactly make the character invisible, it makes it more difficult to see her.
I'd have the street samurai roll a perception test (visual with invisibility modifier or hearing with a high threshold (even if he's levitating the mage can still make some noises such as breathing or moving) or even smell if the samurai has smell enhancements). If he succeeds, I'd let him try his blind shot.

[HappyDaze]

Silence spells should inhibit ultrasound, and there's no reason you can't make a personal illusion spell that shields you from radar and/or MAD scanners - including the cyberware scanning variety of either. An advanced version might even let you create false positives if desired.

[nezumi]

It's a +8 penalty if - as has been said - the attacker knows you're there to shoot in your general direction. It doesn't do anything against non-visual methods, however, and he can still do listen checks.

Silence makes a hole in the ultrasound with a radius equal to your magic rating (or less, if you pulled punches). If you're behind 'nothing', you'd be invisible. If you're in front of a big wall, the sammie will realize pretty quickly that there's something there to attack, and he should aim just for the middle of the circle (so that would give him a chance to attack at +(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) .

I'm not aware of a spell to beat MADs, although I suppose that shouldn't be that hard. RADAR feels like it would be tougher. However, in either case, you need to beat the OR for it to be effective, which means it'll be pretty steep. You're not going to have four or five of these spells running simultaneously. Plus, if you're flying invisibly in the air, you want to be detectable by radar, so you don't get hit by a passing jetliner or anything.

[Stahlseele]

Improved Invisibility and Levitation.
"Where did we park the frigging Tank?"

[DireRadiant]

Right now there is this invisible floating mage hovering around and looking over my shoulder as I write this, I just know it, he's always there, I can tell you can't see him really, trust me he's there just shoot him now please, shoot where, right there you silly can't you see him no I can't either but trust me he's there go for it what do you mean have I had my meds today?

[HappyDaze]

I'm not aware of a spell to beat MADs, although I suppose that shouldn't be that hard.

No harder to crank out using the Street Magic spell creation rules than any other spell would be.

RADAR feels like it would be tougher.

Why?

However, in either case, you need to beat the OR for it to be effective, which means it'll be pretty steep.

It's true that these spells will need to be cast at a higher Force and with as many bonus dice as possible helping out, but that doesn't make them harder to build (in game or out). And since most sensors are OR 3, it's not really too bad.

You're not going to have four or five of these spells running simultaneously.

You won't need to. That's where multisensory illusions let you pile on multiple 'cloaking effects' into one spell. A spell that specifically shields you from all technological sensors (MAD, IR, radar, ultrasound, etc.) would be fine - you'd just build it as if it covered everything and then get a bit of a reduction on Drain because non-technologically aided perception can still pick you out.

Plus, if you're flying invisibly in the air, you want to be detectable by radar, so you don't get hit by a passing jetliner or anything.

I don't really imagine a levitating mage getting all that much altitude. At 10m above the ground, you're unlikely to be too worried about not showing up on radar.

[Stahlseele]

No, at that level you will have to worry about drones.

[nezumi]

No harder to crank out using the Street Magic spell creation rules than any other spell would be.

Because things like vision and ultrasound are based off of senses. I could even argue that magnetic sensitivity is a sense (since it occurs in nature). RADAR is not a sense.

It's true that these spells will need to be cast at a higher Force and with as many bonus dice as possible helping out, but that doesn't make them harder to build (in game or out). And since most sensors are OR 3, it's not really too bad.

OR for manufactured, high-tech objects is 8, last time I checked my reputable source.

You won't need to. That's where multisensory illusions let you pile on multiple 'cloaking effects' into one spell. A spell that specifically shields you from all technological sensors (MAD, IR, radar, ultrasound, etc.) would be fine - you'd just build it as if it covered everything and then get a bit of a reduction on Drain because non-technologically aided perception can still pick you out.

Unfortunately, MitS is not immediately available to me, but I do believe those should be done as separate spells. That, or the drain was just killer. I don't know about you, but I consider any spell requiring force 5, D+4 drain a bit more than I would lightly sling.

[BlueMax]

Because things like vision and ultrasound are based off of senses. I could even argue that magnetic sensitivity is a sense (since it occurs in nature). RADAR is not a sense.

FANTASY HAT
RADAR is not a sense? For who?
Next your going to tell me that there are no such things as fairies or trolls and elves. That magic does not exist and there are no Dragons.

SCIFI-FANTASY HAT
Think about TMs, they naturally sense Wifi. Heck, they can beam out Wifi at pretty massive wattage. RADAR... wifi... I don't know man, looks like things are getting more plausible. Just pieces of the same spectrum Wait, can a high Resonance TM produce natural milimeter wave? huh.

BlueMax

[cndblank]

One of the first things the Military would have been doing once they got a handle on Magic would be deep research in to invisibility to Radar.

Between government grants and corporate research projects, they would have had a bunch of wage mage egg heads under the knife and outfitted with a personal radar system before you can say government contract.

All he would have to do is keep experimenting on a spell formula until he couldn't detect it on his radar.

And since he paid essence for the radar system, it would have been a sense to him. No different than when the first Silence spell was developed. "Can you hear me now?"....

I don't think he could actually cast spells at some thing using just Radar or even Ultra Sound. Both can actually sense though some materials like a thin wall or even to see how full a stomach is.

I thinking that since a spell can travel through a fiberoptic line or be bounced off a mirror, it has to be some form of vision enhancement and not radar or ultrasound.

[Chibu]

When using a Tactical Computer (was it kept around in 4th?) adding radar would give you an extra die for marking checks, as an extra sense.

I think that those opposed to radar as a 'sense' are taking the word too literally. Yes it is obviously not a NATURAL sense (i.e. Sight, smell, hearing), but then again, neither are Infrared and UV. After all, radar, like 'wifi' (actually,they are very close in wavelength), is really just a different wavelength of light that you're bouncing off the target. As such, Improved Invisibility should actually make radar rather ineffective. Link to electromagnetic spectrum diagram.

Is there a Dev that can confirm or deny this? Radar, being a form of light as are "Visible", IR and UV, will be rendered ineffective by the use of Improved Invisibility.

[nezumi]

FANTASY HAT
RADAR is not a sense? For who?

For anyone, that's the point. If SOMEONE had that sense, it would be a sense, even if it's not one we humans have.

Think about TMs, they naturally sense Wifi. Heck, they can beam out Wifi at pretty massive wattage. RADAR... wifi... I don't know man, looks like things are getting more plausible. Just pieces of the same spectrum Wait, can a high Resonance TM produce natural milimeter wave? huh.

1) I don't believe in TMs.
2) I'm going off the manual for this, specifically p. 170, Adept Powers - Improved sense. "You have a sensory improvement not normally possessed by your race... Unless an improvement involves radio or similar technological phenomena, any sense provided by cyberware can also be provided by this power." Radio (and thusly RADAR) are specifically noted as NOT being available/natural senses. I'd double check MitS, but like I said, not immediately available.

One of the first things the Military would have been doing once they got a handle on Magic would be deep research in to invisibility to Radar.

I disagree, for a few reasons.
1) Magic is very expensive, and a rare resource. You have a very limited number of mages, and quite a few uses for them. Meanwhile, radar-resistant paint already exists, and exists in Shadowrun (in the form of a high Signature rating, which we see regularly, especially on milspec gear). Radar-resistant vehicles are cheaper, more dependable, can't be disrupted, and are more subtle against astral observors. Anti-radar spells would be unnecessary and expensive in comparison. And since radar is ineffective at detecting man-sized objects, a personal radar-proof spell wouldn't be much use.

And since he paid essence for the radar system, it would have been a sense to him. No different than when the first Silence spell was developed. "Can you hear me now?"....

Except as specified above. Radar is not considered a normal sense, per canon.

I don't think he could actually cast spells at some thing using just Radar or even Ultra Sound. Both can actually sense though some materials like a thin wall or even to see how full a stomach is.

Correct. Just like he can't cast just by smell or sound.

I think that those opposed to radar as a 'sense' are taking the word too literally. Yes it is obviously not a NATURAL sense (i.e. Sight, smell, hearing), but then again, neither are Infrared and UV.

Actually, both infra-red and UV appear in the natural world. Moths and bees see UV. There are a number of reptiles capable of seeing infra-red. No animal can see or detect RADAR.

[Muspellsheimr]

Right now there is this invisible floating mage hovering around and looking over my shoulder as I write this, I just know it, he's always there, I can tell you can't see him really, trust me he's there just shoot him now please, shoot where, right there you silly can't you see him no I can't either but trust me he's there go for it what do you mean have I had my meds today?

I Know You're Listening

[Chibu]

2) I'm going off the manual for this, specifically p. 170, Adept Powers - Improved sense. "You have a sensory improvement not normally possessed by your race... Unless an improvement involves radio or similar technological phenomena, any sense provided by cyberware can also be provided by this power." Radio (and thusly RADAR) are specifically noted as NOT being available/natural senses. I'd double check MitS, but like I said, not immediately available.

Actually, both infra-red and UV appear in the natural world. Moths and bees see UV. There are a number of reptiles capable of seeing infra-red. No animal can see or detect RADAR.

The reason one could not have 'radio' as an Improved Sense is that the radio signal needs to be interpreted for it to be of use. Radar, however, does not need to be interpreted as it is simply another wavelength of light bouncing off of the target. Now, the issue with this being a 'sense' as an adept power, is that one would need to EMIT the radar as well, as it works like a spotlight. So therefore, an adept should be allowed to be able to 'see' radar, but emitting it, and therefore making it useful, is another thing entirely.

If a spell bends light around it, and radar is light, the spell bends radar as well, no? The reason that improved invisibility does not work with Thermo is because the invisible person is giving off that heat radiation. Therefore, I would also venture so far as to say that if the invisible mage is holding a flashlight or glowstick, the light emitted from it will be visible to anyone and anything around.

[cryptoknight]

The reason one could not have 'radio' as an Improved Sense is that the radio signal needs to be interpreted for it to be of use. Radar, however, does not need to be interpreted as it is simply another wavelength of light bouncing off of the target. Now, the issue with this being a 'sense' as an adept power, is that one would need to EMIT the radar as well, as it works like a spotlight. So therefore, an adept should be allowed to be able to 'see' radar, but emitting it, and therefore making it useful, is another thing entirely.

You do realize that Radio and Radar are both parts of the EM spectrum right?

[Apathy]

Silence spells should inhibit ultrasound, and there's no reason you can't make a personal illusion spell that shields you from radar and/or MAD scanners - including the cyberware scanning variety of either. An advanced version might even let you create false positives if desired.

One might interpret that silence spell creates a 'black hole' in your ultrasound. While the sam wouldn't be able to identify the exact location of the target, it might alert him of the general location in the sense that there's a 5 meter radius of no sound waves bouncing back in his field of vision. A smart street sam might choose to spray the center of that 10 meter hole with a wide burst...

Edit: Alternately, the sam can train dogs to rush toward scents of metahumans that are invisible. He then activates the wireless grenades sewn into their collars...

[nezumi]

The reason one could not have 'radio' as an Improved Sense is that the radio signal needs to be interpreted for it to be of use. Radar, however, does not need to be interpreted as it is simply another wavelength of light bouncing off of the target.

1) I do recommend you read what radar is and how it works before you make these sorts of statements.

2) Radar takes intense amounts of 'interpretation' to be of use. This is why, while the wireless was invented around 1906, radar wasn't successfuly used until around 1941. This is also why effective radar (for purposes other than range finders/speed guns) are exceptionally expensive - because of all of the gear necessary for that interpretation.

On the flip side, visual light as well needs to be 'interpreted' for it to be of use. This is why we have both eyes and a visual cortex. If you remove either, your body will be unable to interpret data, and you will be blind.

3) Radar is not a wavelength. It is radio waves (hence the name, radio detecting and ranging). Therefore, any rule you apply to radio waves applies also to radar, just like any rule you apply to sound waves applies also to ultrasound vision.

Now, the issue with this being a 'sense' as an adept power, is that one would need to EMIT the radar as well,

That's clearly not an issue because adepts can have ultrasound vision, which requires something to be emitted. And, again, the rules specifically say the sense may not have anything to do with radio waves - not that it may not have anything to do with senses that require something be emitted.

If a spell bends light around it, and radar is light, the spell bends radar as well, no?

The rules specifically answer this question for you (p. 195)

"Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind... Physical illusion spells create actual sensory input." (and later) "Indirect illusion spells manipulate energy to create an illusionary image or sound or other sense-based effect, fooling the senses." Invisibility does not bend light. I know there's a specific rule saying radar is not effected by invisibility, but I admit, I can't immediately find it.

The reason that improved invisibility does not work with Thermo is because the invisible person is giving off that heat radiation.

Improved invisibility DOES work with thermographic vision (however, again, rules are not at my fingertips on this one).

[Chibu]

nezumi: Did you intentionally ignore the spell description? Or did you miss it? I was about to thank you for pointing out that I had remembered it wrong, but the I decided to check again anyway...

Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological sensors as well.

Also, radio and radar and wireless and microwave ovens are all light. They are the same as the visible light you're seeing from your computer screen, but at different wavelengths. Seriously.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/spectrum.html - "Thus we see that visible light and gamma rays and microwaves are really the same things"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

This is a basic statement, which I do not need my degree in Physics to understand.

As for the rest of your post? That adepts can use ultrasound, which is the same as radar, but using sound as opposed to light, means that adepts should not be restricted from taking radar as well.

I believe that you are the one who needs to read up on how things work; radar, radio or otherwise. In fact, the only part that is correct is that invisibility does work with thermographic vision, which changes but supports my argument.



Aside: I apologize for this post, as I don't like stirring up argument, but well...

[nezumi]

nezumi: Did you intentionally ignore the spell description? Or did you miss it? I was about to thank you for pointing out that I had remembered it wrong, but the I decided to check again anyway...

Well there's your first problem. You're using 4th edition. Those rules don't even make sense. Improved invis and invis are completely different sorts of spells - improved invis doesn't even belong in the same section! All other editions don't follow that silly line of thought. If you fix that problem, everything else follows.

Also, radio and radar and wireless and microwave ovens are all light. They are the same as the visible light you're seeing from your computer screen, but at different wavelengths. Seriously.

No, they actually aren't light. Light refers to a specific subset of wavelengths. Radio waves fall outside of that range. They are all electro-magnetic (EM) radiation.

As for the rest of your post? That adepts can use ultrasound, which is the same as radar, but using sound as opposed to light, means that adepts should not be restricted from taking radar as well.

That's true... except the rules SPECIFICALLY SAY THEY CAN"T USE RADAR. I didn't make up the rules. It's right there in the book. I gave you a page quote. You're welcome to look it up yourself.

[Stahlseele]

NOOO!!
Not THIS Discussion again -.-