Magic got some?, SR4 Options

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Anyone have what they think is a really great combat mage build for SR4?
If so, why?

Curious to see what people have up their sleeves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Machiavelli]

Haven´t managed to create one up to now. Simply not enough bp´s for an old powergamer like me.^^

[Meatbag]

How absurd would you like it?

Use a Charisma-based Tradition. I like Black Magic, 'cause LaVeyan Satanism is a pretty munchkinny philosophy, all told.

Make sure your path can summon Spirits of Man - Black Magic works here too.

Be an Elf, get your Charisma up around six. This not only betters your drain-soak, but determines how many Spirits you can summon. Also, if your party doesn't have a dedicated Face already, you're just a few skill points away.

Spirits of Man have "Any spell the caster knows" as a power, and continual use of a power is only one service. Summon six Spirits of Man, force 6-12. This will hurt, but you only need to do it once.

You can now sustain any six spells on yourself, I like Improved Agility, Improved Reflexes, Improved Reaction, Deflection, Extended Mindnet and Extended Detect Enemies. A Spirit's magic is equal to its Force, so we're looking at Force 12 spells on average, Force 24 max.

Three passes, maxed or near-maxed combat attributes, an impressive Ranged Defense pool, an unhackable Tacnet for the team and the ability to chuck Manabolts,

That should get you well on your way, though it can be improved further.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Absurd? Not really thinking about it in that context. Maybe I should rephrase the question.

What are the common mistakes when making a combat mage in SR4?

It doesn't have to be min/maxed...just interested in seeing what people's take is on it.

[Dreadlord]

Be an Elf, get your Charisma up around six. This not only betters your drain-soak, but determines how many Spirits you can summon.

Um, CHA determines how many Spirits you can BIND, not SUMMON! You would be spending a boatload of BPs/Karma to bind that many spirits. With the exception of watchers and Bound Spirits, you can only ever SUMMON 1 spirit.

SR4A, p.188
Summoning
A magician may only summon the chosen spirits of her tradition (see Traditions, p. 180). Summoning a spirit requires a Complex Action, and only one spirit may be summoned at a time.

[easl]

Summoned spirits also only last until the next sunrise/sunset, so you have to summon those 6-7 Force 12 spirits twice per day. That's a lotta drain.

Main book, page 177: "A spirit will perform the services it owes until the next sunrise or sunset. At that time, regardless of
any remaining services or what it was doing, the spirit will depart and return to its home deep in astral space."

[Screaming Eagle]

The one time I was looking pure "combat mage":
Elven Mage - Hermetic - Aspected to Fire spirits and combat spells
Mostly touch range direct combat spells and unarmed combat out the buns - ok, and fireball, not cause it is any good but...
Tossed in some "good" stealth/ infultration skills and gear, grenades and an assult rifle

It was amusing - full write up was a wash-out from the Tir T. Covert ops training, failed the psych profiling - he was CRAAAZYYY! Very much a "Burn the world" character.

Mistakes I've seen:
Neglecting the physical stats HARD to get that extra die of drain resistance or "active" spell dice pool - usually not worth it. Combat mages should have at least a body 4 or a solid dodge pool. Preferably both.
How hard to fight for extra IP is a matter of some debate - its really good on a spell slinger especially a boomstick spell slinger.
Spells are great but I prefer bursts of EX-EX ammo for those pesky drones.
I would avoid bound spirits in active use on a "front line" combat mage - getting knocked out is going to happen and free spirits can be alot of trouble if you are the only Mojo you're teams got (unless I'm wrong and this doesn't happen?)

[easl]

Getting back to the original topic of the thread, while you ideally want "high everything" you probably at a minimum want high initiative, the ability to take out a target in one shot, and some ability to resist/avoid the counterstrike from his buddies.

I'd pick a tradition that uses Intuition (since that also adds to init), a mentor spirit for Combat. Pump skill points into perception, dodge, and Spellcasting (6 + specialty), and pump attribute points into agility and magic. With a starting character you should be able to manage 16D pool for your combat spells, initiative around 11, a ranged defense of ~10D and a melee defense or active ranged dodge 5-7D higher (depending on your dodge specialty). In play, if you have some time to set up, you'll probably want to boost your reflexes or IP with a spell and take the -2D penalty to your combat spells. If you're surprised, just drop a ball spell. Have a Force-11 touch spell and a force-6 bolt spell for "normal" combat situations and you're on your way.

For a completely different type of combat mage, consider a manipulation specialist. Shapeshifting to "big cat" with a 16D casting pool should give you all physical attributes around 10 and 2 IPs. Kitty comes with built in knives, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Getting back to the original topic of the thread, while you ideally want "high everything" you probably at a minimum want high initiative, the ability to take out a target in one shot, and some ability to resist/avoid the counterstrike from his buddies.

I'd pick a tradition that uses Intuition (since that also adds to init), a mentor spirit for Combat. Pump skill points into perception, dodge, and Spellcasting (6 + specialty), and pump attribute points into agility and magic. With a starting character you should be able to manage 16D pool for your combat spells, initiative around 11, a ranged defense of ~10D and a melee defense or active ranged dodge 5-7D higher (depending on your dodge specialty). In play, if you have some time to set up, you'll probably want to boost your reflexes or IP with a spell and take the -2D penalty to your combat spells. If you're surprised, just drop a ball spell. Have a Force-11 touch spell and a force-6 bolt spell for "normal" combat situations and you're on your way.

For a completely different type of combat mage, consider a manipulation specialist. Shapeshifting to "big cat" with a 16D casting pool should give you all physical attributes around 10 and 2 IPs. Kitty comes with built in knives, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Interesting and I am glad to see that you didn't feel that a combat mage has to be an elf. Not that I have anything against elves, far from it, just pleased that a person can make this type of character viable without having to be a certain race.

What is the general thought on resources and some sort of melee combat focus?
In 3rd edition I thought that the balancing act between benefit and risk from such things were nicely done.

[Kronk2]

I agree that its More Fun to have a build that is not race dependent. I like Dwarves over all because of the high drain resistance, and it works well with any tradition.

I have found that Manaball is a must, as is an offensive mana barrier.

[Falconer]

Bob... there's a lot of ways to go for a combat mage.

Then there's other problems such as... do you want to come into your strength after an initiation or two, or right out of chargen.

In almost any case, you're better off buying mag to 5. If you need more, bind a power focus in chargen. Sustaining focus is usefull. Another trick is the spirit of man (but that that gets costly... unless you're using your one summoned spirit for it's services sustaining powers on you and your allies... as opposed to a combatant in it's own right).

Then another aspect is do you focus in combat spells, or manipulations... or if you want to be truly hardcore health (decrease attribute spells can be pretty devastating in hand to hand... decrease wil... resist w/ will which gets drained to zero... turning you into a vegetable).

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Bob... there's a lot of ways to go for a combat mage.

Then there's other problems such as... do you want to come into your strength after an initiation or two, or right out of chargen.

In almost any case, you're better off buying mag to 5. If you need more, bind a power focus in chargen. Sustaining focus is usefull. Another trick is the spirit of man (but that that gets costly... unless you're using your one summoned spirit for it's services sustaining powers on you and your allies... as opposed to a combatant in it's own right).

Then another aspect is do you focus in combat spells, or manipulations... or if you want to be truly hardcore health (decrease attribute spells can be pretty devastating in hand to hand... decrease wil... resist w/ will which gets drained to zero... turning you into a vegetable).

I didn't want to constrain anybody's creativity but I would say that I am more interested in the following right out of chargen that would seem reasonable and yet competent...

Human
Mage
Attributes (nothing shorted to the point where it would raise an eyebrow)
Skills (be somewhat stealthy, low end martial arts, but a decent pistol shot, able to run a block without throwing up, ride a motorcycle in a chase, cast spells, summon a spirit, assencing maybe)
Spells (those first 8-10 spells should cover, protection, ranged combat strike, increased initiative passes, and an illusion spell or two to deal with getting into places that I don't really belong)
Enough cash afterwords for a low end apartment, motorcycle (big combat bike...not moped), pistola, a few clips of ammo, white noise generator, and a couple other tech toys.
Flaws (don't want to be the 3-legged cheetah, hermaphrodite, that is addicted to karaoke)
Edges (nothing in this area really blows my kilt up *BFG*)

[Falconer]

Okay firstly, some of your goals are heavily contradictory. Generally a combat mage is understood not to be a ninja but a blaster or manipulator/mind raper who's good in a straight up fight.

Your description is much more akin to an adept than a mage. The mage in a chase on a motorcycle is more likely to have a spirit use the 'movement' power on him to burn rubber. Same goes for pistol... why a low damage pistol when a combat spell will do as much or better. If drones are a problem, then you probably need a bigger gun anyhow. Sneak... that's what concealment/silence spirit powers are for.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay firstly, some of your goals are heavily contradictory. Generally a combat mage is understood not to be a ninja but a blaster or manipulator/mind raper who's good in a straight up fight.

Your description is much more akin to an adept than a mage. The mage in a chase on a motorcycle is more likely to have a spirit use the 'movement' power on him to burn rubber. Same goes for pistol... why a low damage pistol when a combat spell will do as much or better. If drones are a problem, then you probably need a bigger gun anyhow. Sneak... that's what concealment/silence spirit powers are for.

Gee... That was less than helpful...
He wants what he wants... what is so bad about that?

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Falcon

The pistol...because in SR3 it was always nice to have something if you were not certain you could make the drain test for the combat spell.

What spells and skills do you think are must have's for the combat mage?

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Gee... That was less than helpful...
He wants what he wants... what is so bad about that?

Its all good, I am not familiar with SR4 so all input is cool. (Well...all constructive input is cool.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Knight Saber]

I didn't want to constrain anybody's creativity but I would say that I am more interested in the following right out of chargen that would seem reasonable and yet competent...

Human
Mage
Attributes (nothing shorted to the point where it would raise an eyebrow)
Skills (be somewhat stealthy, low end martial arts, but a decent pistol shot, able to run a block without throwing up, ride a motorcycle in a chase, cast spells, summon a spirit, assencing maybe)
Spells (those first 8-10 spells should cover, protection, ranged combat strike, increased initiative passes, and an illusion spell or two to deal with getting into places that I don't really belong)
Enough cash afterwords for a low end apartment, motorcycle (big combat bike...not moped), pistola, a few clips of ammo, white noise generator, and a couple other tech toys.
Flaws (don't want to be the 3-legged cheetah, hermaphrodite, that is addicted to karaoke)
Edges (nothing in this area really blows my kilt up *BFG*)

Let's see, general advice... Somewhere around:
Body 3
Agility 4
Reaction 4
Strength 2
Charisma 3
Intuition 3
Logic 5
Will 4

You might lower either Agility or Reaction to bump up Int. or Will by one.

Take Spellcasting at 6, which will limit your other skills to 4, tops. Take Summoning and Binding instead of the skill group. Banishing doesn't work as well as zapping the enemy spirit with a combat spell, so you can get by without it. Counterspelling should be a 4 too. Points will be tight, so take (whatever combat skill) at 2 and specialize in the kind of weapon you like. Astral Combat shouldn't be overlooked... you'll have to fight there too. It works out efficiently to take a Weapon Focus for the close combat type you specialize in and an Astral Combat specialty in that weapon focus as well. Dodge with Ranged speciality is another good choice. If you take the weapon focus, parry and block will serve you well up close. Points get tight with mages, so you'll have to take a lot of secondary Skill 1 (spec) 3 skills, but they'll be inexpensive to bump up with Karma. Your gun skill and bike skill will likely end up that way.

The Dark Goddess totem works well for a combat mage, giving you a bonus to both Combat and Health spells, and a tendency to escalate combat, which fits in.

You'll want at least three combat spells... Stunball is a must, efficient and versatile. Mana Bolt is a good single-target mana spell. An elemental spell such as Lightning Bolt is good for inanimate targets... you can short out vehicles and drones with it. Power Bolt or Ball could be useful for damaging things too. Shatter (Walls) can work well... it has a low drain, so you can overcast it safely. Physical Barrier is an obvious one and Levitation has many uses, so those are both musts. Improved Reflexes is good... having a spirit of man cast it on you can help, as noted above, but a spirit makes a better ally than spell-sustainer. Heal, naturally, to fix up the damage you'll take. Control Actions or Mob Control can get nasty... zap a group of guards, have them turn at each other and do surpessive fire with automatic weapons. Ouch. Physical Mask isn't very combat-y, but again, is very useful. If you're going into close combat, the Elemental Aura is your friend. Cut armor in half from the elemental effect, add damage, counterstrike anyone who hits you, etc.

It's not as flashy as many other spells, but take Low Light Vision and a level 1 sustaining focus and you'll have low-light magical targetting without too much trouble. Some people prefer cybereyes for this effect, but that's not my preference for mages. A Power Focus level 2 will run you 50K and 2 BP to bind... If you can fit it in, you should, given the high Karma cost for bonding with one later. Weapon Foci aren't super-killer efficient metagame-wise, but they are neat, and something that few other character types can use, so you might want to go with that. I like the basic sword, as it's more concealable than the katana or claymore... they all look good if you attack people from your bike. A retractable baton as "magic wand" has a neat look to it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Human Mage
Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 4
Strength 1
Charisma 3
Intuition 4
Logic 5
Willpower 5
200 points

Edge 2
Magic 5
Cost 40

Skills
Spellcasting 5
Counterspelling 5
Summoning 4
Binding 4
Assessing 3
Perception 3
Pistols 2/4(Semi Autos)
Infiltration 3
Ground Vehicles 1/3 (Wheeled)
Cost 124

Spells
Heal
Levitate
Stunball
Powerbolt
Increased Reflexes
Physical Mask
Physical Barrier
Mana Barrier
Mind Probe
Detect Life Extended
Cost 30

Qualities positive
Mage
Cost 15


Total 409 ( need 9 points in flaws+ whatever you need for money)

You can get up to 20 more points in positive qualities. Mentor spirit,is only 5 and fairly good. Focused concentration 2 would be 20 points and give you 2 more drain dice. For a layer of cheese restricted gear 5 point quality, power focus 4 cost 100,000(20 points) binding 4 points total cost 29 points or come up with 9 points and 35 points in flaws. It is cheesy but its hard to get one in game due to the high money and karma costs. without restricted gear you can get a level 2 one for 12 points. Personally I prefer to run without any focuses, but my latest character is abusing this as a test.

[Falconer]

Lets put this another way... you only have 400BP. You're trying to do it all. To give you a rough idea of the outline and limitations.

With as many ways as you ask to go you lack focus. A traditional mage doesn't aim to do those things, he looks to have say 1 rank so he's not defaulting, maybe specialize it, then augment his low dice pool by penalizing the opposing pool.

200BP == 20 stat raises /8 stats == 2.5 raises per stat. STR is your only dump stat as a combat mage like you're describing. Now throw out amother 15BP for magician. Another 5BP for a mentor spirit. another 5BP for night vision (lowlight vision you WANT it either via cyber or au natural)
5bod (tough and can wear lots of armor, also heal drain faster)
2agi (something has to slide and this is it)
5rea (maximize your defense pool... also used to drive your bike, and importantly initiative)
1str (str, we be mage, we don't need no stinkin str)
2cha (again something had to slide)
3log (decent... did this one over cha as you get the extra 3 knowledge/langage ranks)
5int (drain pool, and initiative!)
5wil. (again mental toughness... all mages should have this nice and high)

Another 40 to buy up Mag... we can leave edge alone at 2 (though w/ a human I'd really like to have the points to bring it up to 6)

(not covered... twink method... buy a nice high body, then shapeshift into say an orc or troll to raise your physical stats w/ sustaining penalty/focus)

You'd probably look for an intuition tradition (intuition is used for initiative as well as w/ streek knowledges and interest skills as well which seem apt for a combat mage). There are no intution traditions w/ spirits of man (necessary if you want your spirit to cast your spell on you for you as a service). So lets look, Buddhist (maybe), druid (not really, old school hippie), hedge witch (possession, that's out), wiccan (not really, new age hippie).

Okay buddhist... air, guidance, earth, fire & water spirits. Now check to see which powers that allows as both automatic to the spirits and optionals when summoned.

Forget illusions... needing to beat Object Resistance 5 anymore makes it a no go (3 for a raw sensor, but a drone is OR5 and those are what you need to worry about). That's a SR4a change which has rendered illusions laughable. Maybe invis to sneak people past guards though or to make things 'disappear' from view (like that command detonated grenade you left by the door).


All said and told... looking above we've already spent from 265 to 305 BP, w/ 10BP left for qualities and -35 left for negatives.
Spellcasting 6
Counterspell 4
Perception 4
Assense 4
Summoning 4
Binding 4

That's 104BP in skills right there... we can start trimming bits off some of them... to shift them to physical skills

plus 3BP/spell... Stunbolt, Stunball, Heal, Increase Ref, Detect Enemies, shapechange, Levitate, Invis (you can shapechange into another human and cameras won't know the difference like they would w/ an illusion).

And that hasn't even got to the mundane skills yet.
Pilot Ground 1
Pistols 1
infiltration 1
influence 1

Equipment wise... you probably want to spend 9BP on a force 3 sustaining focus or two. (one health, one manipulation).
plus bike, plus pistol

Another thing to keep in mind is it costs 4BP to buy a rank1 active skill in chargen, but 4 karma in play... if you can wait 4 karma is a lot cheaper. Buy specializations using 2karma each quickly after chargen using your first karma award or two. (EG: pistols(revolver) if you use the warhawk.

Does this give a better idea of all the tradeoffs and such you're looking at? I believe I'm over-BP in there, and that is just a rough example.

[Knight Saber]

Shinobi's design is pretty solid, if not 100% what I'd do. Taking Infiltration 1 (Urban) 3 will free up 6 points for gear and/or foci though. Most of your infiltration will be in the city, after all.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Thanks. I was floundering and you folks really came through.

Falconer,

Thanks for the tough love! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Seriously though, I didn't think that you were being mean or anything. I was too broad in my focus and that was a big part of my problem, of course my SR4 knowledge is pretty pathetic. I was hoping to avoid making three or four horribly flawed characters before getting a build that would work (i.e. survive).

I will see what I can come up with from what everyone has contributed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Just wondering, is there a concensus that Physical Mask is a wasted spell these days?

I remember how potent it was in SR3...has that changed?

[Cain]

Shinobi's basic setup is good, but he neglects Edge. A high Edge is a must for any spellcaster, simply because it lets you break the success cap on spells. So, you can use ten successes on a force 5 spell. And with exploding 6's, getting those 10 successes isn't as difficult as you might think. Combine this with an Aid Sorcery service, and you've got a big boom just waiting to happen.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Shinobi's basic setup is good, but he neglects Edge. A high Edge is a must for any spellcaster, simply because it lets you break the success cap on spells. So, you can use ten successes on a force 5 spell. And with exploding 6's, getting those 10 successes isn't as difficult as you might think. Combine this with an Aid Sorcery service, and you've got a big boom just waiting to happen.

High edge is awesome, especially for mages. But I'm rarely worried about the success cap, since I rarely cast spells at a low enough force for it to matter. Still if there is one uber stat in the game its edge, and under 4a attributes are harder to increase. So yeah finding away to scrounge 20-30 points for edge isn't a bad plan.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Just wondering, is there a concensus that Physical Mask is a wasted spell these days?

I remember how potent it was in SR3...has that changed?

I still like it, but some people use trid phantasm as the do all illusion spell. Technically it can mimic physical mask and a host of other illusion spells but with some built in limitations.

It has a higher drain. F/2+3 is usually fairly easy but you need it at a decent force due to the success cap, unless you edge it as cain points out.
You have to move the area of effect as a complex action,
if any of the targets leave your LOS it drops.

The last two make it harder to sustain than other spells when ever you and your team has to move, especially when you have to turn corners. But since it is an area version its only 1 sustained spell instead of 1 per person you are masking.

Still overall since physical mask covers all senses, and most sensor packages include ultrasound I think it beats out invisibility in utility, but has no real combat power.