Summoning Fiat Options

[dirkformica]

If a Summoner wanted to force his Spirit to use Edge on a test, how many GM's would accept it if the task cost an additional service? For example, a summoner calls a force 6 Spirit of Man to cast a spell on them. That would be a Service for using their power (Innate Spell.) If the summoner asked for the spirit to use Edge on the casting how many GM's would accept the summoner's request if it cost an additional service? Also, what if the Summoner expended a task in order to allow/force the spirit to use Edge on the Drain?

It seems reasonable to me, but I wonder about consensus.

Thanks in advance.

[Blade]

IIRC, Street Magic explicitely states that the spirit is the only one to decide what to do with his Edge.
Besides, Edge isn't, at least for me, something the characters are aware of. It isn't even something they really use. To me, Edge is just a game mechanic to avoid having the randomness of dice ruin the game.

What I can imagine though, is a summoner asking the spirit to give all he's got in exchange for one service, though the spirit will still have the final say on the matter. Either that, or I could let the player use his own Edge for his spirit.

[Synner667]

What is "Edge" ??
Can it be passed from one t'other ??

Karma could be represented as life force or life energy, and could be transferred...
...But is Edge the same ??

How is Edge different from Karma ??

[Screaming Eagle]

Edge is the Luck stat - it replaces Karma Pool (more or less) but is bought up like any other stat. I'm not going through the full rules differences but many of the uses are comperable. Edge overall (eyeballs it mentally) is slightly more limited.

It cannot be "passed in" although there are some mechanics for Karma (awarded karma for stat advancement "life force/ time and effort points" has gone resonably unchanged but doesn't generate a Karma Pool) being transfered: mostly Via spirit power shenanigins.

[Adarael]

I'd like to point out that while the amorphous idea of "luck" IS part of Edge, Edge is not JUST luck. It's a combination of luck, grit, the ability to push yourself beyond your ordinary boundaries, intensity, and good old professional experience. You can be an unlucky sonofabitch, but if you've been a runner for 15 years, you probably have a high edge, because you've had 15 years of experience with going above and beyond the ordinary.

[Neraph]

To the OP: I'd allow it, but I'd charge karma for it.

[Synner667]

Just to clarify, I know what the official view of Karma and Edge is...
...But if Karma is luck, grit, etc [as it has been for SR 1-3], what is Edge ??
If not, what's its purpose ??

Do they both need to exist in the rules ??
Do the rules need two luck, experience, grit, etc attributes ??

[Neraph]

Just to clarify, I know what the official view of Karma and Edge is...
...But if Karma is luck, grit, etc [as it has been for SR 1-3], what is Edge ??
If not, what's its purpose ??

Do they both need to exist in the rules ??
Do the rules need two luck, experience, grit, etc attributes ??

No no, in SR4, there is only Edge, with Karma being turned into DND's XP system. Every now and then, however, you are able to spend karma (especially in relation to spirits) to do neat things, like long-time bindings or certain spirit pacts.

What I am suggesting is to have the spirit charge a handfull (between 1 and 1/2 force, I'd think) of karma to use his Edge on a given test, by order. Think of it as a mini-pact.

[Chibu]

My views of the two are as follows:

Karma is Experience. As well... That's basically what it is. So, that's what it does. It's the summation of all of your experiences and actions, good or bad. As such, you learn from your experiences and use them to your advantage. (raise skills/attributes, have that gut feeling that you need to duck, etc.)

Edge is more of Luck and Determination. It's that je ne sais quoi that puts some people ahead of the game and no one can see any logical reason why. It's not that they're necessarily better or more experienced (that's what skills are for) but things seem to just work out for them.

[Synner667]

Yes, Edge and Karma are flipsides of the same metaphysical coin in SR 4, but I was trying to non-rules define them.

If Edge is just what Karma was, then the Character should be able to "spend" it like you could with Karma and "give" it to someone.

But if they overlap, in practical terms, is the division the best way to handle things ??

[Warlordtheft]

They no longer refer to karma as good karma-as opposed to non-karma, and carmel karma, or karma karma karma chameleon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Anyway-edge replaces the karma burning (for rerolls/save my arse) from the previous editions. In some respects it is more limited (you have fewer edge points than karma), but you don't have group karma to worry about either (a mechanic I never ever used).

[knasser]

Yes, Edge and Karma are flipsides of the same metaphysical coin in SR 4, but I was trying to non-rules define them.

If Edge is just what Karma was, then the Character should be able to "spend" it like you could with Karma and "give" it to someone.

But if they overlap, in practical terms, is the division the best way to handle things ??

There are no previous editions. There is only the ever-changing current edition. Any reasoning that uses old rules for the basis of "should" is in trouble.

Karma is that thing you accumulate from life and living and it can be translated into personal improvement or spiritual transactions. Out of game, it's a number on a character sheet which can be spent. In game, it can be rationalised as the time you spend practicing your martial arts, attuning yourself to your ally spirit or whatever. You can even trade life-force with a spirit for personal gain, though it will leave you drained with no energy to pursue your dream of learning French.

Edge out of game is a number that you can add to dice pools, use up to get re-rolls etc. But in game, it can be represented as grit, utmost effort, the insight of experience or even, sometimes, a little luck. Anything you ask a spirit to do needs to have an in-game rationale. At best, you can ask a spirit to really try. There's no reason for it to do so unless the GM thinks there is.

Some people try to treat spirits as if they were bound by some bizarre legalese, trying to word services in such a way as to trick extra effort out of them. That doesn't work. Services are an abstraction. I try to play my spirits (as GM) with intelligence and personality. They have mental attributes equal to their force so by the time you get to Force 3, they have matched the insight and reasoning of most people. If it's in character for a spirit to spend Edge, then they may do so. Maybe the Shaman summoned a Forest spirit to help fight people burning it down. In that case, the player wouldn't even have to ask. If the PC has abused spirits in the past, then a spirit is very unlikely to spend Edge for its summoner. If the situation is bad enough, the spirit might even spend Edge to resist being bound. The higher the Force of the spirit, the more it is likely to make its personality known in such a way. My favourite was a Beast spirit that enjoyed chomping on the security guards so much, that it decided to stick around and carry on chasing people down throughout the complex. Force 1 spirits are much less intelligent and whilst they have personality, it is more rudimentary. E.g. Force 1 Fire Spirits may be like cackling pyromaniacal children.

This is my take on things anyway and it works well for me.

K.

[Screaming Eagle]

I'm not really seeing a problem with the loose translation:

Good Karma = Karma
Karma Pool = Edge

You never used Karma Pool to barter with spirits that I can recall: you used Good Karma.
Looking at your posts you seem to be confusing Good Karma (EXP award) with Karma Pool (luck/ grit/ I am awesome)

[Muspellsheimr]

Suggestion (& currently in-use House Rule):

Summoned & Bound spirits do not have an Edge attribute. Instead, the summoner may use Edge on their spirit's tests as if they are their own.

[TheOOB]

Suggestion (& currently in-use House Rule):

Summoned & Bound spirits do not have an Edge attribute. Instead, the summoner may use Edge on their spirit's tests as if they are their own.

I don't like it personally. Whether or not a spirit uses edge on your behalf is based on how you treat spirits, and how it's task lines with it's goals. Removing this removes good role play opportunities.

[Synner667]

My point being that depending on how you define "Edge" would determine the answer - built up life force or generic/undefined [AD&D Saving Throw] luck...
...One I can see being traded to another, t'other not so much.

As far as any comparison with SR1-3 and Karma is concerned, since one [received Karma] determined the other [Karma Pool], what they are now [SR v4] and how they are now [SR v4] is very different - and I was querying if that's a good or necessary way to do it.

[Meatbag]

Besides, Edge isn't, at least for me, something the characters are aware of. It isn't even something they really use. To me, Edge is just a game mechanic to avoid having the randomness of dice ruin the game.

To be perfectly fair, Great Dragons can manipulate Edge greatly though Twist Fate. so Edge may be a representation of "how much you can bend your fate" or somesuch.

That said, the characters likely aren't aware of it unless they have some truly impressive insight into the way of things. Most PCs are too busy being shot at to seek profound enlightenment.

And yes:

A spirit is generally under the control of the magician who
conjured it, but to one degree or another it is still an independent
entity. Even while bound and compelled to obey, a spirit
has its own fate and its own free will—as such, a magician cannot
compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge on a given test.

It goes on to say that any use of Edge is at GM discretion.

[Muspellsheimr]

I don't like it personally. Whether or not a spirit uses edge on your behalf is based on how you treat spirits, and how it's task lines with it's goals. Removing this removes good role play opportunities.

All the more reason to change it.

Role playing should never be dependent on game mechanics, & vice-versa.

[knasser]

All the more reason to change it.

Role playing should never be dependent on game mechanics, & vice-versa.

You have it the wrong way round. The mechanics aren't determining the spirit's behaviour. The mechanics are there to support more flavour. If I want to represent that the spirit feels loyalty to the mage, or agrees with its goals, how do I represent it doing its utmost to go above and beyond the normal call of duty? Edge is a good way to do that. Similarly, how do I represent that the spirit is chaffing under the control of a magician it knows and hates? Again, either not using Edge in the course of its services, or using Edge to represent it fighting control with every ounce of its being are good ways of turning the role-playing (the initiator) into mechanics (the dependent).

[TheOOB]

I don't see why roleplaying cannot be support by game mechanics.

If someone likes you, they will try harder when they perform a task for you, which will, in turn, increase their chances for success.

If a spirit likes you, it will try it's best. The game has a mechanic for trying your best...using edge.

Shadowrun is a roleplaying game, the game and the roleplaying play hand in hand. There is nothing wrong with mechanics supporting role play and visa-versa.

[Apathy]

Am I the only one who read "Summoning Fiat" and thought of a spirit of man in the form of an italian roadster?