What's the word on Thunderbirds?, Rules questions on LAVs/T-Birds Options

[overcannon]

I like vectored thrust aircraft, but I just don't know how the rules work as far as maneuverability.

For example, the Federated Boeing Commuter has the Improved Takeoff and Landing 2 mod, but the GMC Banshee does not have it listed. As a matter of fact, other than in subtext calling it a vectored thrust craft, I can't find any rules for it's operation. I mean, is no suggestion of how it maneuvers other than its maneuverability rating.

Another question that I have is about the MiG-67; what weapon mounts does it have? Can it mount launch weapons?

I would really appreciate anything you guys have found about T-birds, either in 4th or earlier, or how you handle them (house rules and such) within the game.

[DireRadiant]

Vectored Thrust and LAV are VTOL vehicles, so they don't need take off and landing distances.

[Malachi]

T-Birds are "technically" a vector thrust aircraft, but they are more accurately described as a "hover tank." LAV stands for Low Altitude Vehicle, and I believe their max flight ceiling is a few miles, at most. I'm not sure exactly what rules your are looking for... keeping in mind that LAV's hover overtop of the terrain a little bit, they operate under all the normal rules for vehicles.

[DireRadiant]

Another question that I have is about the MiG-67; what weapon mounts does it have? Can it mount launch weapons?

In SR4 Arsenal the MIG-67 does not come equipped with weapon mounts or launch weapons by default, you need to add them according to the appropriate rules.

Every 3 points of body gives a possible weapon mount which can carry larger then LMG size weapons, which includes launch weapons.

The MIG has a body 18, which means it can mount a heavy turret, which can carry a Main Gun. See p 123 Arsenal.

[overcannon]

In SR4 Arsenal the MIG-67 does not come equipped with weapon mounts or launch weapons by default, you need to add them according to the appropriate rules.

Every 3 points of body gives a possible weapon mount which can carry larger then LMG size weapons, which includes launch weapons.

The MIG has a body 18, which means it can mount a heavy turret, which can carry a Main Gun. See p 123 Arsenal.

Ah, well I had just noted that in the picture (whatever that is worth) that it seems to have a heavy turret, as well as a smaller turret for what I assume would be anti-missile defense.

Vectored Thrust and LAV are VTOL vehicles, so they don't need take off and landing distances.

The funny thing about that is that in the arsenal errata it notes that "Unless specified in their description, all helicopters and rotordrones automatically possess the equivalent of Level 2 Improved Takeoff and Landing" which makes no note of VTOL or LAV. But I was just wondering if I was missing something.

T-Birds are "technically" a vector thrust aircraft, but they are more accurately described as a "hover tank." LAV stands for Low Altitude Vehicle, and I believe their max flight ceiling is a few miles, at most. I'm not sure exactly what rules your are looking for... keeping in mind that LAV's hover overtop of the terrain a little bit, they operate under all the normal rules for vehicles.

The Hovertank comment was what I was looking for. I just needed to know whow much of an aircraft it was.

[DireRadiant]

The funny thing about that is that in the arsenal errata it notes that "Unless specified in their description, all helicopters and rotordrones automatically possess the equivalent of Level 2 Improved Takeoff and Landing" which makes no note of VTOL or LAV. But I was just wondering if I was missing something.

LAV aren't Helicopters and Rotodrones so you can use the VTOL rules for takeoff and landing. But as has been mentioned for all practical purposes LAV can be treated as ground vehicles for movement.

[overcannon]

LAV aren't Helicopters and Rotodrones so you can use the VTOL rules for takeoff and landing. But as has been mentioned for all practical purposes LAV can be treated as ground vehicles for movement.

What I was getting at is that they implied by omission that LAVs can't use VTOL rules because they found it necessary to specify that Helicopters and Rotodrones can use VTOL rules in the errata, and they didn't see fit to mention T-Birds.

But the Ground Vehicle treatment for on the ground movement is very useful to me.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

In the first novel, "Never Deal with a Dragon," they specifically refer to T-Birds as panzers. I'd imagine their max ceiling being somewhere only just over the tops of trees. Keep in mind that they are designed to operate below minimum radar altitude which is only a few hundred feet.

I always imagined the runs that smugglers took their T-birds on as tree top skimming up and down the hollows and valleys to avoid being seen, while still needing to be a good enough pilot to dodge the occasional tall tree. Think a forested Death Star trench run...

[DireRadiant]

Just because they are left off the list doesn't mean they can't do VTOL.

You can also read p.100

"Nicknamed t-birds (aka thunderbirds, for the distinctive
noise they make as they blur past), LAVs rely on ground eff ect lift
and very short wings to keep them in the air, and so are limited
by low altitudes and high stall speeds. Dangerous to fl y, t-birds
require skilled pilots (called t-birders). Th ough they guzzle fuel
like pigs, t-birds are ideal for smuggling as they’re fast, hug the
ground to fl y under radar, can carry good hauls, and can be geared
up with armor and weapons."

[Adarael]

My memory is a little shaky on this, but SR2 or SR3 listed their max flight ceiling as usually around 350 meters above ground level, I think. There were no rules for it, but they were supposed to burn a lot more fuel if they weren't doing Nape-of-Earth flying.

[hobgoblin]

My memory is a little shaky on this, but SR2 or SR3 listed their max flight ceiling as usually around 350 meters above ground level, I think. There were no rules for it, but they were supposed to burn a lot more fuel if they weren't doing Nape-of-Earth flying.

and rigger3 noted that while they could no vertical takeoffs, they rarely did because of the jet blast (a issue with the real life harrier as well, i think the vertical landing area they use on ships is basically a large grate so as to protect the ground crew).

[Malachi]

In the first novel, "Never Deal with a Dragon," they specifically refer to T-Birds as panzers. I'd imagine their max ceiling being somewhere only just over the tops of trees. Keep in mind that they are designed to operate below minimum radar altitude which is only a few hundred feet.

Indeed the book did call the vehicle a panzer. Interestingly, the name of the vehicle that the main character (Samuel Verner aka "Twist") rode in was called Thunderbird. I think the name was adopted as the vehicle classification almost by accident ("I want my rigger to have a Thunderbird").

[hobgoblin]

heh, would not be the first time a nickname is more well known then a designated name...

[Adarael]

The A-10 Warthog, vs the proper A-10 Thunderbolt II, for example.

[HappyDaze]

I view T-birds as the SR equivalent to BattleTech's WiGE vehicles. This means that not only are they not VTOL by default, they actually have a fairly high stall speed since they rely on "ground effect lift and very short wings" to stay in the air. Of course, they could be modified to have V/STOL capabilities, but I don't see that as the norm.

[hobgoblin]

The A-10 Warthog, vs the proper A-10 Thunderbolt II, for example.

my thoughts exactly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

T-Birds are "technically" a vector thrust aircraft, but they are more accurately described as a "hover tank." LAV stands for Low Altitude Vehicle, and I believe their max flight ceiling is a few miles, at most. I'm not sure exactly what rules your are looking for... keeping in mind that LAV's hover overtop of the terrain a little bit, they operate under all the normal rules for vehicles.

Their hover ceiling should be only in ground effect.

[MYST1C]

(a issue with the real life harrier as well, i think the vertical landing area they use on ships is basically a large grate so as to protect the ground crew).

A Harrier is technically capable of vertical take-off but would burn AFAIK about 60% of his total fuel capacity to do so.
When landing vertically a Harrier actually injects water into the jet exhaust to cool it and make it somewhat less dangerous. Thus Harrier landings must happen within a rather short time window (less than a minute AFAIK) before the water tank runs empty.

[Knight Saber]

Indeed the book did call the vehicle a panzer. Interestingly, the name of the vehicle that the main character (Samuel Verner aka "Twist") rode in was called Thunderbird. I think the name was adopted as the vehicle classification almost by accident ("I want my rigger to have a Thunderbird").

The Walter Jon Williams cyberpunk novel Hardwired featured LAV tanks called "panzers" and their operators the "Panzerboys" smuggling goods across the US to avoid the evil Orbital corporations. I always though the change from "Panzer" to "T-Bird" after SR 1 was to establish a more distinctive feel (tying into Native American terms). And perhaps because there was a "Hardwired" sourcebook for Cyberpunk 2020.

[MYST1C]

The Walter Jon Williams cyberpunk novel Hardwired featured LAV tanks called "panzers" and their operators the "Panzerboys" smuggling goods across the US to avoid the evil Orbital corporations.

It's been a while since I read Hardwired but I think those "panzers" were explicitly described as hovercrafts not aircraft of any kind, weren't they?

[Knight Saber]

It's been a while since I read Hardwired but I think those "panzers" were explicitly described as hovercrafts not aircraft of any kind, weren't they?

It's been a while for me too (I should fix that), but you could be right. Though they're both fast tanks without treads that fly close to the ground to avoid radar, so the basic effect is the same.

[The Jake]

I like vectored thrust aircraft, but I just don't know how the rules work as far as maneuverability.

For example, the Federated Boeing Commuter has the Improved Takeoff and Landing 2 mod, but the GMC Banshee does not have it listed. As a matter of fact, other than in subtext calling it a vectored thrust craft, I can't find any rules for it's operation. I mean, is no suggestion of how it maneuvers other than its maneuverability rating.

Another question that I have is about the MiG-67; what weapon mounts does it have? Can it mount launch weapons?

I would really appreciate anything you guys have found about T-birds, either in 4th or earlier, or how you handle them (house rules and such) within the game.

You are correct. It's a gap in Arsenal and BBB. It might be fixed in SR4A, but I'm not certain.

- J.

[Method]

They've always been a little vague on this. SR1 variably used the words LAV, panzer, thunderbird/t-bird and "ground-effect" aircraft.

[hobgoblin]

i guess "flying brick" is a trademark? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[MYST1C]

i guess "flying brick" is a trademark? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The equivalent vehicles in CP2020 - Aerodyne Vehicles or AV for short - are explicitly described to only stay airborne because their engines were originally built for aircraft with double their weight.
AVs are in general much smaller than Thunderbirds, more like flying minivans with the smallest models actually designed to resemble flying cars like the police spinners from Blade Runner or the the aircars from The Fifth Element. Setting-wise they are not meant as flying tanks but jet-powered helicopter replacements.