Protecting your guards from the all-powerful manabolt, Since the other thread went to hell... |
Protecting your guards from the all-powerful manabolt, Since the other thread went to hell... |
Jun 13 2009, 10:07 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 |
It's been brought up many times in the Thread That Shall Not Be Named and others of its ilk about how "broken" direct combat spells can be if used against mundanes. I, personally, don't see the problem. There are a lot of ways for a corporation to minimize the risk that a Mage will show up and annihilate their security:
1. Drones Drones now require a threshold of 5 to affect in SR4A. That requires, on average 15 dice on your spellcasting roll, and the use of Physical spells. It is still quite doable for a starting mage, but it is not a gimme, and requires some specialization on the mage's part, to the detriment of other areas of expertise. Railguns, Steel Lynxes, and embedded turrets make formidable opponents for a mage, and importantly from the corporation's perspective, they are cheap. They can spend the minimal upfront costs to acquire technological defenses, and then either contract out to a security firm to have a Spider on standby, ready to jump in should an alert be sounded, or important facilities can have their own dedicated Spider. 2. Tactics It's been said many a time, minimal tactics can negate a mages ability to screw you by limiting LOS. There are a lot of options here, limited only by your creativity: Have them take cover, fire smoke grenades to limit visibility, have one member of the response team engage in suppressive fire while the other members attempt to flank the team. Thermal smoke + suppressive fire usually will keep a mage from doing anything resembling an "I Win!" button. Tying in with drones, an automated drone may have a crap dice pool, but suppressive fire will still keep the mage from popping his head out - many mages have poor Edge attributes due to the demands of their build, so suppressive fire is an excellent method of keeping them in their place. And of course, never forget grenades - gas grenades in particular can be effective, as they linger. Also, having guards in personal mobility vehicles with tinted windows and a weapon mount becomes a fairly simple and effective "F U" to a mage with only mana based spells, as it completely removes LOS. Finally, one way glass is cheap, and again, effective. 3. Manatech Street Magic and Arsenal features ways for mundanes to prevent being ambushed from the astral. Awakened Ivy, Haven Lilys, Guardian Vines, and FAB aerosol sprays can prevent a mage from Astrally Projecting into a middle of a group of guards - the better to keep them from dropping a summoned spirit on them while staying safe in the Astral. Biofiber can be used for a cheap Ward - the initial upfront costs can be expensive, but long term maintenance is cheaper than constantly contracting out with a magical security firm to continually renew a ward. Additionally, facilities can be built underground to protect against astral intrusion - the earth acts as a barrier to Astral forms. 4. Magic Security Firms Magic counters magic, but you don't need a wagemage sitting around every facility waiting for that rare enemy mage to show up and make his life interesting. Magical security can be contracted out on a sliding scale: for a minimum rate you can have your facility warded for a few weeks. Next, we can have the off-site security mage loan a service from his bound spirit to the captain of the security team upon receiving an alarm call: remember also, that certain spirits from Street Magic have Magical Guard, which gives them the ability to provide counterspelling to a team, in addition to a spirits other powers. Moving up, we can secure a mage who will show up to the area in the astral when the alarm is sounded, manifest, and use his counterspelling ability on corporate security (with his own spiritual back up to protect him should the runners try to take the mage out in astral combat). On the next step up in the pricing scale, the contract Mage can show up astrally as above, but actually order his spirit(s) into combat. 5. Dedicated Facility Mages Finally, we can have the dedicated facility mage for those really secure locations - this state seems to be the only method some posters believe is effective in countering magical aggression. Even then, a security mage doesn't have to be super good to be effective in limiting enemy mages. A mage focused on defense is going to specialize in different areas than a runner mage: Counterspelling, banishing, bound spiritual back up, and "boosts" to his security team are more effective uses of a rare and expensive asset than having him sit in a corridor, slinging spells, and potentially getting shot. A dedicated Counterspeller can really put the kibosh on a lot of things: Counterspelling 6 + Combat Specialization 2 + Mentor Spirit 2 + Counterspelling Foci (combat) 3 = 13 dice added to willpower scores for combat spells, or 8 for other types. The nice thing about a dedicated counterspeller is that even the crappiest, barely magical of mages (or mystic adepts) can be a ferocious magical defender, as counterspelling does not utilize the magic attribute. This makes the dedicated counterspeller relatively cheaper, more available, and still effective addition to a security team than the Super-Mage with Mighty Spirits that many GMs likely default to in order to challenge their players. As you can see, there are a lot of ways the a facility can cheaply and realistically protect themselves from being ganked by a runner team, without having to pull out an equally powerful mage every other run just to keep your player's magical assets challenged. Comments? Tips? "You suck and your suggestions will never work!" advice? I welcome them all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Edit: Incorporated HappyDaze's suggestion to number 4 (loaned services), because it was good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Edit 2: Added Jaid's suggestion re: PMV's and LOS to number 2. Added W@gemage's point about one way glass to number 2. |
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Jun 13 2009, 10:11 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
On point #5, don't forget that certain spirits (Guardian, Guidance, and Plant) have Magical Guard. This lets such spirits provide Counterspelling even when the magician is not directly present.
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Jun 13 2009, 10:28 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Most of the tactics don't really work well in a typical SR fight. Taking cover and smoke are only effective if you get a chance to do them, and very few will be acting after getting hit with a F9 stunbolt or stunball. Overcasting is the single biggest issue with combat spells in the game.
If you are willing to allow the mind control spells in to your game then they allow a whole horde of evil things to happen. Wards do nothing to stop a magician without active spells or focuses from walking through, at which point he summons his bound spirits via the game breaking "metaplanar shortcut". The cost of effective magical protection of a facility is silly high and magicians are too rare per RAW and the cost of being a magician is too low for a PC. (Though it is better then in SR3). |
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Jun 13 2009, 10:30 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,894 Joined: 11-May 09 Member No.: 17,166 |
The whole "spirit" related protection assumes that the corp is willing to spend the nuyen and effort to pay for the upkeep of spirit-based magical security. Some people don't seem to believe they would bother. I would contend otherwise.
And in the end, you don't necessarily need to stop the mage entirely, just blunt the attack: the most "hits" the mage can apply (not "net-hits") is capped by the force of the spell, and if the "defenses" can knock the first couple hits off the top, the grunt has a chance of blowing the last couple hits off entirely. Even if they don't, they aren't totally incapacitated if the mage is reduced to a hit or two, as opposed to a Force 6 Mana Ball with all 6 hits applied to the damage. With one net hit, there's just 7 points of stun damage, and the average NPC (WIL 3) is still up, and can activate countermeasures or return fire (4 guys shooting full auto wide spread at the mage will ruin his day PDQ). And there's no "soft-toss" Force 5 Mana Ball staged up to 9 or 10 stun, either, because now the mage needs those hits. Remember, the mage still needs at LEAST one "net-hit" to effect the target. Another thing to consider would be giving the guards a "above average" WIL score, something that can be objectively screened and tested for at hiring/assignment, which will result in a better resistance. I always thought moderately charismatic, highly intuitive and strong willed guards were a LOT more threatening than ye-old muscle. |
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Jun 13 2009, 10:33 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 |
QUOTE Most of the tactics don't really work well in a typical SR fight. Taking cover and smoke are only effective if you get a chance to do them, and very few will be acting after getting hit with a F9 stunbolt or stunball. Overcasting is the single biggest issue with combat spells in the game. I find it hard to believe that a single Stunball will take out every single person in a facility. It only takes one spell before the "Oh, Shit! Mage! Call the contractors!" response occurs - you don't need to be a guard to have that drilled into your head. Any employee can sound the alert. Furthermore, a Stunball does nothing against non-living security - turrets, railguns and the like. They are cheaper than human guards to maintain. Remember, the perception threshold to notice as spell is 6 - Force. That Force 9 Stunball will alert even the blind (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Since we now know that cast spells have little sparkly fairy dust (or whatever) that accompany them when they're cast, the effect should be viewable over a camera after the fact - "What happened to Post A? Oh crap, there's that sparkly stuff we were warned about! Call the contractors!" Edit: For perceiving spells. |
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Jun 13 2009, 10:41 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I find it hard to believe that a single Stunball will take out every single person in a facility. It only takes one spell before the "Oh, Shit! Mage! Call the contractors!" response occurs - you don't need to be a guard to have that drilled into your head. No, it takes one spell where someone understands it is a spell and can act on this information. As spells themselves are not detectable by mundane means... Plus there is always the set off the burglar alarm 60 times a day approach. After the 12th or 25th time in one night you get told you need to call the security mages what happens? |
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Jun 13 2009, 10:46 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 |
I edited an argument re: noticing spells, but it must have been while you were typing your own. Spells have visible indicators when cast, depending on their Force, per SR4A.
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Jun 13 2009, 11:04 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
QUOTE The whole "spirit" related protection assumes that the corp is willing to spend the nuyen and effort to pay for the upkeep of spirit-based magical security. Some people don't seem to believe they would bother. I would contend otherwise. I too would contend otherwise. Binding a Force 4 spirit costs only 2,000 nuyen, and it's services (remote and loaned) last until used. For an 'average' wage-magician with a dice pool of 8, that's an expected 1 net hit so 1 service. That service can be 'protect (location X) from anyone designated by (people Y)' effectively making the spirit a one use deterrent. You really get a lot out of it for 2,000 nuyen - and even if you contract for a few more of these every week, that's small change for most corp sites. Consider that 30 guards (on multiple shifts) paid 5,000 nuyen monthly (Day Job used as a base) = 150,000 nuyen. We're going to assume that our guards have a shitty contract and have to provide their own equipment and ammo so that doesn't factor in. Take 8% of this and you get four Force 4 spirits ready to go at all times. If they get used, they cost a bit to replace - but far less than those guards will unless we assume that they also have to cover their own medical costs. If we are assuming all of this, we can assume that the contract for spirits is to have X number of Y Force available at all times. If the going is tough, the magical security provider makes less profit d/t constant resummoning , but in quiet times, a set of spirits summoned up might last for months or years. |
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Jun 13 2009, 11:07 PM
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#9
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Combined Spell-Anchors?
One with detection Spell that detects any magic that does not belong there, be it spirit or spell that does not match up with the signature of the corporates wagemage. Another that reacts when the first one says:"Dude, someone's here!" and does only one thing. it slings one strong manastatic spell. Nothing Magical will work as intended anymore. |
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Jun 13 2009, 11:14 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
QUOTE Nothing Magical will work as intended anymore. Including, IIRC, your own wards. This might actually make it easier to astrally breach your 'magically secure' location in some situations. |
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Jun 13 2009, 11:19 PM
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#11
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Yeah, but right now, it seems to be that Guards should be helped against Spells, nothing else.
At least, the title of this very thread leads me to believe that. Granted, we are some posts downthread . . So the probability of the thread having changed so everything and their mom has to be guarded is approaching 1 |
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Jun 14 2009, 12:39 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I edited an argument re: noticing spells, but it must have been while you were typing your own. Spells have visible indicators when cast, depending on their Force, per SR4A. No, PEOPLE can notice it, but there is nothing a machine can sense. And it's all very vague, nothing that would allow you to tell that anyone other than a shaman did anything. 1/4" inch drill bits and borescopes are the mages friend. |
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Jun 14 2009, 05:38 AM
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#13
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem here is that the security setup described in the OP would only work for the highest of high-security facilities. If you're running anything else-- a mid-level security corp, a gang battle, and so on-- then you can't use that setup without charges of foul play.
For example, I just ran the Kowloon Massacre scenario in Ghost Cartels. Even splitting up the hordes of junkies on kamikaze, they were pretty much laid to waste by manaballs. I couldn't legitimately give them significant drone support; and the only fair way to make things tougher would be to add even more cannon fodder. Oh, and one other thing: QUOTE "What happened to Post A? Oh crap, there's that sparkly stuff we were warned about! Call the contractors!" Unless I miss my guess, that "sparkly stuff" isn't visible to cameras. |
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Jun 14 2009, 06:35 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 17-November 08 Member No.: 16,603 |
Magic can't be sensed by cameras, no, that's why you deploy GloMosss liberally, preferably coupled with a security rigger.
This has obvious downsides if you also have spirits or mages, but in that case, use those. Mages are instructed either to eliminate threats if feasible or deploy mana static if not. If you have spirits on Remote Service, simply have them use Magical Guard on the fleshy mooks. Between these, you should at least be able to slow the mage down a bit. |
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Jun 14 2009, 06:51 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 |
For example, I just ran the Kowloon Massacre scenario in Ghost Cartels. Even splitting up the hordes of junkies on kamikaze, they were pretty much laid to waste by manaballs. I couldn't legitimately give them significant drone support; and the only fair way to make things tougher would be to add even more cannon fodder. In the middle of a rating 3 background count? How were your mages not exploding? Unless I miss my guess, that "sparkly stuff" isn't visible to cameras. There is nothing in the rules or flavor text that even hints at this. Where did you get that idea? |
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Jun 14 2009, 06:59 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
There is nothing in the rules or flavor text that even hints at this. Where did you get that idea? Perhaps you are using a different set of the rules than us? NOTICING MAGIC Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician’s intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic mask. Th e shamanic mask typically changes the magician’s features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to her mentor spirit or tradition—an eagle shaman, for example, might seem to have feathers or beaklike features while spellcasting or summoning. |
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Jun 14 2009, 07:02 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 |
Perhaps you are using a different set of the rules than us? And where does it say that the observer can't be a camera? Also, the rules part of the paragraph, which you seems to have left out. QUOTE Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice).
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Jun 14 2009, 07:26 AM
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#18
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE In the middle of a rating 3 background count? How were your mages not exploding? We're in a longrunning game where each character has at least 175 earned karma. The mages have become very good at what they do. It only took three mana/stunballs to decimate their ranks, and that's easily survivable even with a low background count. QUOTE There is nothing in the rules or flavor text that even hints at this. Where did you get that idea? Don't have the time to dig up the exact quote, but Mana effects are invisible to cameras. That's been a longstanding staple of Shadowrun magic since, well, forever. Non-physical spell residue would definitely fit under this category. |
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Jun 14 2009, 07:51 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 664 Joined: 3-February 08 Member No.: 15,626 |
We're in a longrunning game where each character has at least 175 earned karma. The mages have become very good at what they do. It only took three mana/stunballs to decimate their ranks, and that's easily survivable even with a low background count. That gives them a magic of 10-11, which is nearly on par with great dragons. Of course they are exploding people with magic. That was a problem with the low karma cost for advancing magic. Still, Assuming F10 mana balls, your eating 10P drain. That isn't easy to soak. |
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Jun 14 2009, 10:51 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 425 Joined: 27-May 09 From: Evil's Nexus Member No.: 17,207 |
Layer your security and don't limit yourself to inside the box. In one instance I had the guards fall back, trigger thermal smoke, and deploy builtin mono-wire in a corridor. The gung-ho troll charged forward and had his legs taken off below the knees. Which actually derailed the run horribly because dragging a -troll- around is rather problematic, in the extreme. I had to pass around a cheese platter with all the player 'whining'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Jun 14 2009, 03:20 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
We never run long running fights like that. If you do you lose, as the bad guys have a stream of reinforcements on the way and you don't. Having to fight you way out against two HTR teams plus air support, numerous spirits, combat drones, etc just doesn't work. It's the ending of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
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Jun 14 2009, 10:01 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 |
Don't have the time to dig up the exact quote, but Mana effects are invisible to cameras. That's been a longstanding staple of Shadowrun magic since, well, forever. Non-physical spell residue would definitely fit under this category. Mana effects may be invisible but that does not mean that the casting is. The rules and the fluff paragraphs concerning noticing magic slightly contradict each other. The fluff states that magic is hard to notice, but the rules give a pretty generous test to perceive a reasonably powerful spell. The rules section makes it clear that there is some sort of disturbance centered around the caster when he casts a spell; powerful spells have much clearer disturbances. It takes a bit of a leap to assume that these disturbances are invisible to cameras. Since it's not clearly determined either way, you're free to rule that cameras do not notice the disturbances, but it's also not a required conclusion. |
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Jun 14 2009, 10:14 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 10-January 09 From: Des Moines, WA Member No.: 16,758 |
QUOTE The problem here is that the security setup described in the OP would only work for the highest of high-security facilities. If you're running anything else-- a mid-level security corp, a gang battle, and so on-- then you can't use that setup without charges of foul play That's an interesting charge, as I specifically designed the options to be available to low level and price-conscious types. Only tactic #5 requires a large allocation of resources. Realistically, how much do you think contracting with a security firm for the services of a Rigger should an alarm be sounded cost? I would imagine not much, as one Rigger can realistic handle dozens of facilities as he doesn't need to be jumped in unless an alarm should be sounded. The same goes with the contract Mage. He spends 2k to bind a Force 4 spirit with a few services. Then he goes on with his life, until he gets a commcode call - one of his customers needs spiritual help! He pulls up a picture of the captain, ceo, head researcher, whomever of the facility, calls his spirit, and tells it to obey that person's one command. It may be months, or even years, until he gets that call from one relevant facility - in the meantime, that one spirit can realistically be utilized for coverage for dozens of facilities, much as the security rigger. On-site defense is not the only option available to corporations. More secure, perhaps, but equivalencies can be contracted cheaply and then written off for tax purposes. |
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Jun 14 2009, 11:12 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,894 Joined: 11-May 09 Member No.: 17,166 |
Layer your security and don't limit yourself to inside the box. In one instance I had the guards fall back, trigger thermal smoke, and deploy builtin mono-wire in a corridor. The gung-ho troll charged forward and had his legs taken off below the knees. Which actually derailed the run horribly because dragging a -troll- around is rather problematic, in the extreme. I had to pass around a cheese platter with all the player 'whining'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) First, excellent point. Good security is always implemented in collapsing layers, just like good vehicle armor. Second: having done the same trick in 2nd ed with the barrier spell anchored between two buildings (horizontally, parallel to the road and paper thin at about shoulder height) while being chased by a go-gang at 100 kph+, I think that's brilliant. OK, and the parrt about he troll as baggage is a hoot, too. How the DREK did they get the bleeding stopped, anyhow? |
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Jun 15 2009, 01:08 AM
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#25
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's an interesting charge, as I specifically designed the options to be available to low level and price-conscious types. Only tactic #5 requires a large allocation of resources. Realistically, how much do you think contracting with a security firm for the services of a Rigger should an alarm be sounded cost? I would imagine not much, as one Rigger can realistic handle dozens of facilities as he doesn't need to be jumped in unless an alarm should be sounded. The same goes with the contract Mage. He spends 2k to bind a Force 4 spirit with a few services. Then he goes on with his life, until he gets a commcode call - one of his customers needs spiritual help! He pulls up a picture of the captain, ceo, head researcher, whomever of the facility, calls his spirit, and tells it to obey that person's one command. It may be months, or even years, until he gets that call from one relevant facility - in the meantime, that one spirit can realistically be utilized for coverage for dozens of facilities, much as the security rigger. On-site defense is not the only option available to corporations. More secure, perhaps, but equivalencies can be contracted cheaply and then written off for tax purposes. Judging from how much it costs to outfit and equip a Rigger PC, I'd say having live spider security would cost a lot. Also, what happens if there's two alarms at once? The rigger can only be jumped into one drone at a time. Similarly, magic security, even minimially, cost a great deal. THe spirit can't be at more than one site at a time, so the mage needs to summon one for every site. Additionally, it needs to be of a type that can provide Magical Guard, in order to provide counterspelling; and those types tend to not be as good at the actual fighting. |
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