Protecting your guards from the all-powerful manabolt, Since the other thread went to hell... Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I also tend to tailor the opposition to the players. If there are not any mages in the group then I run a very low magic world. If there are mages then I run it as an ever present force.

Honestly, I know several people who get paid 100-130k a year who are senior engineers. For all the crap and responsibility I would have to get paid that well to take their jobs. The is a point where the increment in pay is not worth the excrement. It is better to go home at a reasonable time (while there is still daylight) and spend it with family.

Tailored opposition is the way we go as well... but the point I was making is that If the team has a MAge, expect the Opposition to have a mage as well... Mages are not so rare that having one makes an "I Win" scenario..

[Omenowl]

Tailored opposition is the way we go as well... but the point I was making is that If the team has a MAge, expect the Opposition to have a mage as well... Mages are not so rare that having one makes an "I Win" scenario..

I think Cain's complaint was it has to be internally consistent and realistic. I don't disagree with this, but the missions should be tailored to their skills to make the mission tough, but not impossible. If the players aren't challenged then the GM is not doing his job or the players are intentionally taking milkruns. If the shadowrunners are attacking sock factories or mom and pop grocery stores than they won't meet magic opposition. However, if they go to the next level then magic opposition is more likely.

It is the runs with big payback where manaball, Automatic grenade launchers and spirits have multiple counters. Cyberzombies, biodrones, toxic magicians, Black IC, Spiders, Red Samuari and paracritters make shadowrun the game we love.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think Cain's complaint was it has to be internally consistent and realistic. I don't disagree with this, but the missions should be tailored to their skills to make the mission tough, but not impossible. If the players aren't challenged then the GM is not doing his job or the players are intentionally taking milkruns. If the shadowrunners are attacking sock factories or mom and pop grocery stores than they won't meet magic opposition. However, if they go to the next level then magic opposition is more likely.

It is the runs with big payback where manaball, Automatic grenade launchers and spirits have multiple counters. Cyberzombies, biodrones, toxic magicians, Black IC, Spiders, Red Samuari and paracritters make shadowrun the game we love.

Caine's complaints are his own... I will leave it at that... as for the rest, I agree... any significant level of payment will almost always insure that there will be appropriate opposition, whether it be magical or mundane... that is the nature of the business and the reason that some shadowrunners get paid the really big bucks...

And as for internal consistency... my take on that is that if you (the team) have your own magical support) it is internally consistent that the opposition, with an appropriate run, will also have their magical support as well... Tit for Tat... keeps the playing field somewhat even... Now, have we had major runs that did not have Significant Magical threat... Sure, but the threat level (and tactics employed) more than compensated for any lack of "significant" magical abilities on the opposition's part...

[kzt]

This idea that mages are going to earn beaucoup bucks because they have an unusual skill set and are only 1% of the population is just baloney. In economic terms, being part of a 1% category is simply not rare enough to command a huge increase in pay.

It's more like 0.1%, with probably 75% not involved in security. So you get to pick from 0.025% of the population. So in the modern US you'd have about 75,000. That's about how many surgeons there are. There about a million security guards and about 900,000 police in the US today. It's also about as many computer hardware engineers there are.

[Larme]

It's more like 0.1%, with probably 75% not involved in security. So you get to pick from 0.025% of the population. So in the modern US you'd have about 75,000. That's about how many surgeons there are. There about a million security guards and about 900,000 police in the US today. It's also about as many computer hardware engineers there are.

How do you know 75% aren't in security? Do you have a source or did you make that number up?

[Matsci]

It's more like 0.1%, with probably 75% not involved in security. So you get to pick from 0.025% of the population. So in the modern US you'd have about 75,000. That's about how many surgeons there are. There about a million security guards and about 900,000 police in the US today. It's also about as many computer hardware engineers there are.

In 2053, it was 1%. Not .1%, one percent! one in every 100 people! Which make 3,067,040 magic users in modern US. That's 3 million people. Even if you assume only 1/4 are magicians, thats still 767 thousand magi. About 10 times as many as you estimated.

And this is before half a dozen different types of Adepts were discovered, so it mostly refers to spell-slinging mages

Only 1 percent of the people in the world can use magic

[EnlitenedDespot]

My reading on the 1% was that only 1% were Awakened or had magical capability, but that only a fraction of that amount actually ever did anything with it. And with being such a minority (mages are referenced as the most minority group in SR), the level of persecution and violence stemming from a lack of understanding and fear is going to have a major impact on what one as a mage would decide to do.

[kzt]

In 2053, it was 1%. Not .1%, one percent! one in every 100 people! Which make 3,067,040 magic users in modern US. That's 3 million people. Even if you assume only 1/4 are magicians, thats still 767 thousand magi. About 10 times as many as you estimated.

Nope.

SM P22
"First, the Awakened comprise the smallest minority of the
world’s population. Less than one percent of the Sixth World’s
populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that one percent,
only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use
it effectively; the rest either go mad trying or spend their entire
lives ignorant of the power at their fingertips."

[Blade]

I think there's a huge difference between the percentage in the world and the percentage in a city like Seattle.

[easl]

I think Cain's complaint was it has to be internally consistent and realistic. I don't disagree with this, but the missions should be tailored to their skills to make the mission tough, but not impossible.

But the two go together. Realism will generally mean that a Mr. Johnson knows exactly what level of skill is needed, and hires the cheapest/weakest group that can do the job.

This is not to say that every time a mage is hired, that means there will be magical security. But it does mean that the PC's can expect to be hired for jobs that (a) they can do but (b) will be tough. If a job is too easy, Mr. Johnson overpaid for talent he didn't need. If the job is too hard, Mr. Johnson is going to answer to HIS boss about the screw-up. So the PCs can expect to encounter problems for which their talents are suited...because their employers aren't stupid enough to pay for greater skill than they need, or hire the PCs for jobs they have no chance of completing.

Unless, of course, the runner team is being set up...

[Cheops]

The situation you propose would create hopelessly broken institutions. No training facility directly makes money, not unless it's charging tuition. What you're proposing is that training divisions train the fewest, cheapest people they can in order to spend less money. To imagine that their mandate is actually to save money by not training anyone is actually hilarious. Corporations have full, military strength security wings. There is no (0) chance that these security wings are incentivized based on how much money each individual part of them makes. That would be impossible, because they are not engaged in money making, they are engaged in asset protection. A security division has to be judged on how secure they make things, i.e. how much money they save, because they don't directly generate revenue. Cost overruns matter, of course. But an incentive system where training divisions are penalized for training the best people would cause any megacorp to come crashing to the ground. Bravo on imagining the most unworkable incentive system imaginable, I think you've got Wall Street well and truly licked.

Now, you also seem to be making the broader point that, uh, security mages practically don't exist? I'm not sure. Regardless, the fluff says they do exist. The fluff does not say they're rarer than rare. However you want to justify it, your conclusion can't be right. Maybe some handwavium is required if you can't accept any of the justifications proferred, but this idea that there is no real population of security mages is flat out debunked by the books providing very clearly for mages being engaged in security work without specifying extreme rarity.



Wait, 50% of the population is corporatized. So... half of all the world's mages are corporatized from birth, right? How is that the same as very slim odds? That is actually the very definintion of "just as likely as not." It's got nothing to do with the definition of "very slim."

Actually the system I mentioned is exactly how Executive Management manages their companies. I'm not going to explain it to you because you are just going to ignore me anyway but for anyone else who is interested I was talking about Cost Accounting and Wikipedia has a good primer on it.

REALLY!!! Training institutions don't charge for training!!! Holy crap I should go back to the University of British Columbia and the AIMR Institute and ask for my money back because they cheated me!!!

The training arm wouldn't be penalized. They just charge the full expense of the training back to the Security department.

Actually the military arms of the Corporations are incentized based on the revenue they generate. It sounds like you don't really know much about the world of SR so I'd suggest reading up on someting called the Desert Wars. Theoretically the Corporate Military is part of the Entertainment segment of the business. You telling me that the units that pull higher ratings don't get more pay from their parent corp?

The problem with costing the Security department is that (you are correct) they don't generate money, they save money. So using Cost Accounting you treat the expense of Security as an Overhead (Fixed) Expense and you cost it out to the revenue generating branches. So all the expenses of Security are charged to Security (to make sure the true expense is known) and then divided across the departments they are protecting. Theorectically if the Training department needs magical security they would send a bill to the Security Department and then the Security Department sends a bill back to them for the cost of protection.

Actually I think I have Wall Street licked much better than you. For any who decided to read on Wiki you'll see that Cost Accounting is for internal managerial and performance reporting. This information never even gets as far as the Board of Directors. The Shareholdes and Analysts only ever get to see the Audited Financial Statements which do NOT include Cost Accounting. So you are theorectically correct that OVERALL to the Owners (Shareholders) my assertion is incorrect but to the Middle Managers and to the Senior Managers to whom this performance determines their promotion and compensation chances and to the profitability of departments it is important. If a manager goes into a quarterly review session with his superiors and they are raking him over the coals for increased expenses due to the increased activity of a different department then you have a wonky system.

I actually quoted the Rulebook for what I said about Security Mages. Show me something that has been printed that says otherwise.

The 50% was a ballpark. Here's some more numbers: Seattle 52%, Korea 62%, Japan 71%, India 38%, Russia 32%, France 19%. As I also pointed out most Census data doesn't include Homeless (ie. SINless) in the numbers. Unless there is a note somewhere in the Shadows books that I've missed or forgotten (or a dev says otherwise). My point still stands (although the actual numbers for Seattle were 3 million SINners).

[Larme]

The problem with costing the Security department is that (you are correct) they don't generate money, they save money. So using Cost Accounting you treat the expense of Security as an Overhead (Fixed) Expense and you cost it out to the revenue generating branches. So all the expenses of Security are charged to Security (to make sure the true expense is known) and then divided across the departments they are protecting. Theorectically if the Training department needs magical security they would send a bill to the Security Department and then the Security Department sends a bill back to them for the cost of protection.

That's exactly what I've been saying. They keep track of their costs by how much they protect in assets, not by revenue generated. Where we disagree is that I think training a mage would allow them to protect more, since mundanes are basically helpless against magical attacks. Any security department that doesn't train mages to try and save money is going to make the corp hemorrhage resources. You're telling me that a mages is so expensive that there's no way they can break even on the cost of training them. I simply call bullshit on that. If it were the case, magical security would not exist. It does, however, exist. Therefore you cannot be correct.

You're also making some kind of bizarre assumption that magical security doesn't have its own department with its own budget, as if the mages get lumped into the same program as the other cadets, just shunted off into a specialty. I don't think that's likely, really. As I see it, the mages would go into their own department, which would be solely responsible for magical training. The managers of that department would not get yelled at for training too many mages. They'd be expected to use their budget efficiently so as to not have cost overruns, but if they were yelled at it would probably be for not being aggressive enough to secure enough magical talent for the corp. As you point out, if someone just lumped the mages together with the regular security, it would create perverse incentives and fall apart. Bottom line, you're proposing very wacky, unsustainable incentive structures for magical security training which would cause corps to fail in terms of security.

[Cheops]

That's exactly what I've been saying. They keep track of their costs by how much they protect in assets, not by revenue generated. Where we disagree is that I think training a mage would allow them to protect more, since mundanes are basically helpless against magical attacks. Any security department that doesn't train mages to try and save money is going to make the corp hemorrhage resources. You're telling me that a mages is so expensive that there's no way they can break even on the cost of training them. I simply call bullshit on that. If it were the case, magical security would not exist. It does, however, exist. Therefore you cannot be correct.

You're also making some kind of bizarre assumption that magical security doesn't have its own department with its own budget, as if the mages get lumped into the same program as the other cadets, just shunted off into a specialty. I don't think that's likely, really. As I see it, the mages would go into their own department, which would be solely responsible for magical training. The managers of that department would not get yelled at for training too many mages. They'd be expected to use their budget efficiently so as to not have cost overruns, but if they were yelled at it would probably be for not being aggressive enough to secure enough magical talent for the corp. As you point out, if someone just lumped the mages together with the regular security, it would create perverse incentives and fall apart. Bottom line, you're proposing very wacky, unsustainable incentive structures for magical security training which would cause corps to fail in terms of security.

Then you are calling Bullshit for the wrong reason. No where did I say it was too expensive to train them. I pointed out that the Authors of this Game said that mages are more valuable doing stuff OTHER than magical security. It is something they do IN ADDITION to their other duties. It is right there in black and white in the book. I didn't make that up.

So if a mage is more useful doing OTHER stuff the magical security aspect of their job is actually inefficient. They could make more money elsewhere. Presumeably the corporations do their magical research on a project basis and once your project finishes then you go do a "tour" as a security mage for a while. But as soon as you are assigned to a project again you are off the security beat.

The reason magical security exists is because there are players who play magical characters. That is the only reason. I have run entire campaigns where there is NO STATIC MAGICAL SECURITY and the corporations didn't come out on the losing end. As people have pointed out -- what's the difference between a Manaball and a grenade? The corps don't go to extreme lengths to protect their installations against grenades -- why do the same for magic which THEY CAN'T STOP ANYWAY. This is the same reasoning as Frank's critique of the Matrix rules. It is better to just opt out.

The actual structure of the corporate security department is largely irrelevant. All my examples still hold if the magical security department is separate. Senior managers will set targets for them and expect them to stay within their budget. If a manager is consistently over budget he will then be judged by how well he did defending the corp's assets. If there were lots of incursions and he stopped them all he will be applauded and he will get a bigger budget next year. If he did a poor job defending or he was way over budget with no incursions then he will be raked over the coals.

I will also state again just to make sure it is heard. The stuff I quoted is straight out of the basic rulebook. The developers of Shadowrun have stated in print that a mage's time is better spent doing other things and that magical security is NOT as tight as a lot of people here seem to think it is.

[Larme]

So if a mage is more useful doing OTHER stuff the magical security aspect of their job is actually inefficient.

That's a non sequitur, a logical leap taken without proving the necessary premises. If they make money doing other things, then security is inefficient? You have to posit that they cannot protect enough assets to make their security duties worthwhile. I don't think that's borne up, considering just how dangerous magic can be to a corporation's assets. They normally won't be on fulltime security duty because they're not needed against nonmagical threats, and magical threats are rare. It does not follow, however, that deterring magical attack is an inefficient waste of their time. They might generate steady revenue over time by doing research, but what if they stop a shadowrun that was going to cost the corp a million yen? All it takes is a little extraction, sabotage, or theft to set the corp back a lot of money, and a successful security mage can preserve that money all in one night. That makes successful magical security efficient essentially by definition. There is no better way to prevent so much lost money in such a short period of time than by sending a mage out to respond to an intrusion.

The reason magical security exists is because there are players who play magical characters. That is the only reason. I have run entire campaigns where there is NO STATIC MAGICAL SECURITY and the corporations didn't come out on the losing end. As people have pointed out -- what's the difference between a Manaball and a grenade? The corps don't go to extreme lengths to protect their installations against grenades -- why do the same for magic which THEY CAN'T STOP ANYWAY. This is the same reasoning as Frank's critique of the Matrix rules. It is better to just opt out.

Wait, you're actually arguing that, based on the fluff, the fluff can't be right? That's fairly mind boggling. You're saying that the fluff makes mages too rare and valuable outside of security, therefore by fluff there cannot be security, therefore even though there is magical security by fluff, by fluff there can't be. If that was confusing, it's because your chain of logic is twisted back on itself. You are cherry picking. You like certain fluff, so you exaggerate and overemphasize it in order to denigrate a part of the fluff you don't like. You are free to play it how you want, but you can't claim canon here. You're altering canon to suit your own preferences and your own vision of the game world.

Altering the game world for your own personal preferences is a fine thing to do. But remember, the OP is about how to protect guards from manabolt. Under your version of the fluff, you can't. You cannot claim that the rules are broken, while simultaneously changing the fluff to reinforce that. If you use magical security, then the rules aren't broken. If you don't use magical security, then they are, but only because you're playing in a way the devs didn't intend. If you do indeed want to eviscerate part of the fluff in favor of your own version, go ahead, then you will have to nerf magic to make it balanced. Just don't tell us it's the system's fault. You're committing the Frank Fallacy here, yet again -- using the most unworkable interpretation of everything in order to force the rules into a broken state that *must* be house ruled. Except you just said that you know how to make corps win without even needing magical security, which would place you more on my side, with the camp that says house rules are unnecessary. So I guess I have no idea why you're arguing with me, unless you're just trying to stir shit up.

The actual structure of the corporate security department is largely irrelevant. All my examples still hold if the magical security department is separate. Senior managers will set targets for them and expect them to stay within their budget. If a manager is consistently over budget he will then be judged by how well he did defending the corp's assets. If there were lots of incursions and he stopped them all he will be applauded and he will get a bigger budget next year. If he did a poor job defending or he was way over budget with no incursions then he will be raked over the coals.

Umm, so you agree with me? They will train as many mages in security as they have budget for. They are not penalized for doing their jobs. They do not have incentives to train less personnel than their mandate. Don't you think that not doing their job is just as serious as budget? Ideally, they must do their job to the letter and also spend within their budget. That's efficiency. What you're proposing seems to be not doing their job in order to save money, which is the opposite of efficiency. If you sacrifice benefit to save cost, you save nothing at all. You want to maximize cost and benefit both. But if you just slack off in order to stay under budget, you lower cost and benefit equally, at the same rate, which insures a lower benefit from your division, which offsets the lower cost, which does NOT get you promoted. The way to get promoted is to maintain or lower costs while increasing benefits, i.e. find ways to train mages that are cheaper, faster, and more effective. Training fewer mages than you have funding for is not a substitute. Don't be like Cain here, don't commit the error of looking at cost and ignoring benefit. I know that's how us regular folks look at the world, but it's not how a corporation sees anything. Cost and benefit are both indispensable parts of any calculus, and you cannot save money by sacrificing benefit -- that doesn't help the corp at all. The only time that makes sense is when you're running out of money, which isn't happening to any of the megacorps AFAIK.

I will also state again just to make sure it is heard. The stuff I quoted is straight out of the basic rulebook. The developers of Shadowrun have stated in print that a mage's time is better spent doing other things and that magical security is NOT as tight as a lot of people here seem to think it is.

Right, so you admit magical security exists. What could we possibly be fighting about then? My whole beef with you is that you seem to be positing a world where it doesn't exist, even though the book says it does. It might be less prevalent than people think, but that's far from the nonexistence that you seem to propose, right?

[Cheops]

I have said several times that the best defense is to have no static defense. That would be my posit to the OP.

I'm not saying by fluff that magical security doesn't exist. I've reposted it below again. Under my posit magical security only exists as a response to a run. The reason there are any static defense at all is to make the mage feel useful during the planning and execution phases of a run. If you take that out, and forewarn your PC mages, then they can build more well rounded characters and contribute in other ways. Without going apeshit crazy with magical defense there is no way to protect against a mage and in fact there is very little a mage can do to pull off a run through PURELY magical means. The mage can pull off the run with magic as an assist but it won't solve all his issues. So my response to the original poster is: don't bother with any static magical defense. Wait for an alarm. Concealed guards waiting outside the lines of retreat can do wonders towards TPK.

This is quoted for what the authors of SR think about having mages guarding sites:

BBB (SR4) 275

CorpSec Lieutenant "(Professional Rating 2)"

Security garrisons for particularily important corporate facilities may be assigned a wagemage to provide magical oversight. Because magic is still a scarce resource, security detail is usually an additional assignment to be pulled in addition to a mage's normal work duties. Full time security mages are rare except at the most sensitive of installations

...Magic 3, Assensing 3, Conjuring Group 3, Sorcery Group 3, Counterspelling 0

So except for the "most sensitive of installations" the best protection that the AUTHORS afford to corps is the mage with the above stats and he is a researcher -- not a security specialist.

So if you play D&D style and you are always running against top-of-the-line facilities then I suppose what you are proposing is fine Larme. However, when speaking in general we have the answer to mages on security duty.

I suppose that once again what we are arguing about is our differences in play-style. I play what you seem to call "street level" and you play what I call "heroic." Your runners are always going up against the best at their level. Mine weren't because they tended to be sane. As I said in the thread-that-must-not-be-named we have had campaigns end and characters retire because they got to the point where they could bang off a milk run in 1 night with 0% risk and earn 1000 nuyen or they could spend months and have a 90% risk to earn enough to retire on. Most of them decided "My character can make a good living with no risk so he is going to bow out of this run and retire." If you could make 1 million nuyen but had a 90% risk of death or imprisonment would you take it?

Now that I think about it how often do PCs die in your game? How many TPKs do you have? We have lots in our games. Tends to make the players very cautious and make the PCs behave a little more like real people and less like suicidal maniacs.

[Larme]

Ok, so we're not really arguing about much after all. It's a very fiddly question of degree that can never be precisely pinned down, not a basic question of nature. I guess I just assumed you were hostile to my ideas when you launched an attack accusing me of ignorance of very basic economic principles, and including 50 exclamation points.

[kzt]

Wait, you're actually arguing that, based on the fluff, the fluff can't be right? That's fairly mind boggling.

It's SR fluff, where making sense, consistency and logic are strictly optional.

[Cheops]

Ok, so we're not really arguing about much after all. It's a very fiddly question of degree that can never be precisely pinned down, not a basic question of nature. I guess I just assumed you were hostile to my ideas when you launched an attack accusing me of ignorance of very basic economic principles, and including 50 exclamation points.

Which was in itself a knee jerk response to you accusing me of ignorance of very basic economic principles. People get touchy when you accuse them of not knowing their own profession (Financial Analyst).

Seriously however, what can a mage actually do to finish a run using purely Magical means? As I've said before he can't physically touch anything while Projected. He can't cast spells at Physical targets while astrally projected. Wards don't prevent him from snooping thanks to spells in SM. Wards only prevent him from having spells up while he walks through and assuming no Masking.

Manaball is hideously broken. And here's why. A grenade does about as much damage but you can't:

1) perfectly pinpoint its detonation point
2) limit the size of its blast radius
3) sneak it past chem sniffers, cyberware scanners, or MAD sensors
4) avoid damaging the premises
5) avoid making A LOT of noise

Manaball (and by extension Direct Combat spells) are inherently better than even Indirect Combat spells. IC spells:

1) need to roll to hit against Reaction (+dodge) with normal ranged combat penalties
2) don't bypass armor
3) leave physical traces
4) damage the premises

The reason people like Cain and I argue about it being so broken is because it is the best choice in pretty much any situation where combat is anticipated. A hacker and street sam need to work their butts off to get the sam's weapons inside a facility. The mage doesn't. But again it is only broken in combat.

The mage still has to contend with the physical aspects of a run and I think that that is the best place to stop them. Let the mage astrally scout the site. Let him know patrol routes. As long as you have the physical security in place the only way he can really hurt you is via Imp. Invis. and that is easily defeated by Awakened plants (very cheap and can be placed in doorways).

If I'm a corporation I don't care if my Low Lifestyle Corporate Security guards get ganked by Manaball. Let the mage do it. I just need a way to make sure that we spot him doing it and raising the alarm. 300 nuyen biomonitor underwear does that trick for me. No need for Counterspelling. No need for wards. Nada.

As a final point I will mention that the devs found magic broken enough that in SR4.5 they were planning on raising the Object Resistance Thresholds (don't know if they actually did). I plan this weekend to design a one-man Runner team using only a mage and no optional rules (explicitly marked as such). I'll show you just how cheesy a mage is through the fact that he can replace all archetypes (except for Technomancer with their darn Resonance Realms) by himself. I'll see how it goes.

[Larme]

Which was in itself a knee jerk response to you accusing me of ignorance of very basic economic principles. People get touchy when you accuse them of not knowing their own profession (Financial Analyst).

For the record, I was accusing Cain of that when you entered. People always assume I have some kind of overall comprehension of the entire thread of the argument, including all of the players and what they think. That's usually not the case. I didn't know you were even involved until you smacked me with your 50 exclamation points. In the future, if you don't jump to conclusions that people are talking to you when they don't address you directly, maybe this whole kind of thing can be avoided.

Manaball is hideously broken. And here's why. A grenade does about as much damage but you can't:

1) perfectly pinpoint its detonation point
2) limit the size of its blast radius
3) sneak it past chem sniffers, cyberware scanners, or MAD sensors
4) avoid damaging the premises
5) avoid making A LOT of noise

...you forgot how it's totally free, and has no chance of hurting you when you use it! Oh wait, you didn't, because those are balancing factors. Mages pay almost all their points for the ability to cast combat spells. Sammies pay a tiny fraction of their points for a kitted out grenade launcher and a whole arsenal's worth of grenades, and yet they're very nearly as powerful. Again, you're ignoring cost and looking at benefit only. Benefit to benefit, magic pretty much wins when you're fighting mundanes. But cost to benefit, magic is grossly inefficient. You just don't need it. Mages can be defeated physically. The only reason you need magic is for anti-magic. It's true that magic is great and powerful and awesome, but that's not the same as broken. Broken means great, powerful awesome, and doesn't cost much. As long as it has a cost to balance its benefit, it simply can't be broken. Otherwise, nuclear bombs would be broken. But they aren't, because they have an astronomical cost and an availability of N/A.

Now, I don't think the devs were planning to nerf magic in response to it being broken. They were planning to nerf it in response to people like you and Cain calling so vociferously for a nerf. And then they reversed course, because the backlash was even MORE vociferous. But seriously, they handed you your nerf on a silver platter as a set of optional rules. How about use those, and call it good?

[Blade]

A grenade does about as much damage but you can't:

1) perfectly pinpoint its detonation point
All you need is a decent dice pool. Just like the mage will need a decent spellcasting pool to cast his manaball, the grenader will need a decent throwing weapons (grenades) pool.
2) limit the size of its blast radius
True
3) sneak it past chem sniffers, cyberware scanners, or MAD sensors
Pepper Punch grenades are legal. They can be restricted in some places, but so can awakened characters.
4) avoid damaging the premises
Most gaz grenades don't damage the premises.
5) avoid making A LOT of noise
Gaz grenades are quiet.

Manaball (and by extension Direct Combat spells) are inherently better than even Indirect Combat spells.

Partly true. They're extremely efficient (I've actually house-ruled drain to make them more dangerous to overcast), but they don't work against drones and the inability to damage things can be a drawback in some cases.

A hacker and street sam need to work their butts off to get the sam's weapons inside a facility. The mage doesn't.

Not that much. A fake licence can be bought at chargen for the streetsam and a good sam has a lot of ways to enter the facility without going through the checkpoints. I don't say it's a breeze, but it's not as hard as you make it sound.
And as I said earlier, awakened characters can also attract suspicion, so I guess it's not necessarily that much of an advantage for the mage.

The mage still has to contend with the physical aspects of a run and I think that that is the best place to stop them.

I agree. Just like combat isn't the best way to stop the street sam and Matrix the best place to stop the hacker, magic/astral isn't the best way to stop the mage.

If I'm a corporation I don't care if my Low Lifestyle Corporate Security guards get ganked by Manaball. Let the mage do it. I just need a way to make sure that we spot him doing it and raising the alarm. 300 nuyen biomonitor underwear does that trick for me. No need for Counterspelling. No need for wards. Nada.

Some cheap and easy countermeasures (such as the awakened plants you mentioned) are still a good to have on your side. For me, wards are still a must have for most buildings (just like having a lock on your doors or a firewall in your Matrix system).
Active magical protections (counterspelling, guard mages or spirits) are still a good idea against threats such as spirits.

As a final point I will mention that the devs found magic broken enough that in SR4.5 they were planning on raising the Object Resistance Thresholds (don't know if they actually did).

Yes (even if OR might have been raised as a side effect of the more general raising of the target of standard rolls). They also added a (not very good, IMHO) system to raise the drain of direct combat spells.

I plan this weekend to design a one-man Runner team using only a mage and no optional rules (explicitly marked as such). I'll show you just how cheesy a mage is through the fact that he can replace all archetypes (except for Technomancer with their darn Resonance Realms) by himself. I'll see how it goes.

I'd be interested to see this.

[kzt]

Seriously however, what can a mage actually do to finish a run using purely Magical means? As I've said before he can't physically touch anything while Projected. He can't cast spells at Physical targets while astrally projected. Wards don't prevent him from snooping thanks to spells in SM. Wards only prevent him from having spells up while he walks through and assuming no Masking.

Consider a free spirit PC. Materialization changes everything.

[Cheops]

For the record, I was accusing Cain of that. People always assume I have some kind of overall comprehension of the entire thread of the argument, including all of the players and what they think. That's usually not the case. I didn't know you were even involved until you smacked me with your 50 exclamation points. In the future, if you don't jump to conclusions that people are talking to you when they don't address you directly, maybe this whole kind of thing can be avoided.

The post where you questioned my basic economic knowledge you directly quoted me. I assumed that meant you were talking about me.

I actually blasted you with the 50 exclamation points earlier in the thread when you admited to using a D&D style system for creating your runs when you were lambasting me in the other thread for saying that D&D4 was a better system than SR. For that knee-jerk reaction I sincerely apologize.

@Blade:

Good points about the gas. I've tended to prefer gas myself to grenades. Gas still has a problem with point 3 however since it should still show up on the chem sniffer.

Direct combat spells do work against drones. Manaball doesn't. Powerball does. As does Wreck(Drone). And they are more efficient choices than Indirect Combat spells. Point taken about manaball not hitting drones however.

A fake license doesn't mean you are allowed to take your weapons everywhere. Ie. just because I have a gun license doesn't mean I can take my gun into a government building with me. Yes, anyone can arouse suspicion while going through a chokepoint. The sam who has a licensed gun he is trying to take in is going to be red flagged. The mage won't (bar using passive detection such as the aforementioned plants). Also I'd say a mage has an easier time getting through other access points than a street sam. (levitate, imp. invis)

Wards are more of a why not for me. They are cheap so there really isn't any reason not to have them. But they aren't as effective at stopping a mage as a locked door is at stopping a street sam.

Point taken about thresholds in general. I found it extremely amusing that they didn't see the high dice pools coming. If anyone has any house rules about how to achieve making it harder for high dice pools in a less clunky manner than this I'd be interested in hearing.

[Cheops]

Consider a free spirit PC. Materialization changes everything.

Ugh...guess you have to by RAW. I'd never allow such a thing in my games. Yes that is pretty much a game breaker in terms of magical security. A PC spirit will likely be much more sneaky and clever than a summoned spirit and will be less likely to raise alarms.

I'd also counter that with the assertion that if you have Free Spirit PCs you probably aren't playing anywhere near "Street" level in your campaign. I might try making a Free Spirit PC as well to see how that stacks up.

[Larme]

The post where you questioned my basic economic knowledge you directly quoted me. I assumed that meant you were talking about me.

I actually blasted you with the 50 exclamation points earlier in the thread when you admited to using a D&D style system for creating your runs when you were lambasting me in the other thread for saying that D&D4 was a better system than SR. For that knee-jerk reaction I sincerely apologize.

Right, it wasn't about you until you came in and attacked me, i.e. you recognize that you were the first aggressor. Since we're not in disagreement here, let's just drop it.

Ugh...guess you have to by RAW. I'd never allow such a thing in my games. Yes that is pretty much a game breaker in terms of magical security. A PC spirit will likely be much more sneaky and clever than a summoned spirit and will be less likely to raise alarms.

I'd also counter that with the assertion that if you have Free Spirit PCs you probably aren't playing anywhere near "Street" level in your campaign. I might try making a Free Spirit PC as well to see how that stacks up.

Free spirit PCs are horrible starting out. Literally god awful. They start as the equivalent of maybe a force 3 summoned spirit, if you're being charitable. A summoned spirit can kick the tar out of them in its sleep. Some day a free spirit could become useful, but they set the BP cost so high that they are anything but game-breakers. In fact, I think they'd fit in great with a street level campaign. On the plus side, they're essentially immortal, so it's nbd if they get blown to hell every run, especially if they have a friendship pact. They make good decoys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

Free spirit PCs are horrible starting out. Literally god awful. They start as the equivalent of maybe a force 3 summoned spirit, if you're being charitable. A summoned spirit can kick the tar out of them in its sleep. Some day a free spirit could become useful, but they set the BP cost so high that they are anything but game-breakers. In fact, I think they'd fit in great with a street level campaign. On the plus side, they're essentially immortal, so it's nbd if they get blown to hell every run, especially if they have a friendship pact. They make good decoys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

They can still do crazy crap. Like swim through huge amounts of earth (that would kill a human mage) to get into an underground facility without going through the wards on the elevator shafts, then hide inside the security command center bathroom and wait for an employee to come in so he can become his bestest buddy (using influence).