Spirit bolt, now Slay (spirit) Options

[wind_in_the_ston...]

The spell Spirit Bolt seems to have been deleted, in favor of Slay (species). Would you say Slay (Spirit) is correct, or would we have to pick a spirit type?

[Kerenshara]

The spell Spirit Bolt seems to have been deleted, in favor of Slay (species). Would you say Slay (Spirit) is correct, or would we have to pick a spirit type?

Well, Ancient History is the one to actually point that one at, but from a game balance perspective, if I was the one behind the GM screen, I would make you do it by type, because that's a really FUGLY way to deal with a spirit. EYuck! I am seeing the scene from the end of Ghostbusters (the original) with "the destroyer" splattered all over Manhattan.

[Ancient History]

Not it! ...ah, damn.

Okay, long story short: you should pick a type of spirit. You don't have to get crazy about it, Slay (Insect Spirit) works as well as Slay (Beast Spirit).

[BishopMcQ]

Kerenshara--Why do you think it's a fugly way to deal with spirits? The Slay series is really just a limited target Manabolt. (Like Wreck is a limited target Powerbolt)

[Kerenshara]

Kerenshara--Why do you think it's a fugly way to deal with spirits? The Slay series is really just a limited target Manabolt. (Like Wreck is a limited target Powerbolt)

One word: Drain.

Sure, it's limited, but if you allowed it as "Slay: Spirit", and could rip that one off at will, AND since spirits only have one damage track AND the spell is only LOS limited...

It's not that the actual spell itself is "fugly", but just what it would mean for spirits in the game. Then every combat mage takes it, forgets about banishing, and just nukes whatever spirit comes along.

If you at least make it so they need to take it eleven or more times over, then it's not QUITE so nasty, and would even make SENSE for a Bug Hunter mage or somebody taking the one kind of spirit antithetical to their totem-er, mentor spirit.

See the difference?

[BishopMcQ]

Keren--Got it, you were listing it as fugly, if a broad target was taken instead of a specific target. Slay (Spirit of Man) is okay, but Slay (Spirit) is bad.

Personally, I think Slay (Ally Spirit) would be the best way to piss off mages.

[Kerenshara]

Keren--Got it, you were listing it as fugly, if a broad target was taken instead of a specific target. Slay (Spirit of Man) is okay, but Slay (Spirit) is bad.

Personally, I think Slay (Ally Spirit) would be the best way to piss off mages.

Um... I need to go back and check the rules again on the creation of Ally Spirits... I need to see if they start with a base template (and thus a home metaplane, which would be the relevant issue for the effects of the spell).

[The Jake]

I allowed Slay Spirit in my game because it seemed that the absence of Spirit Bolt was too readily felt.

In retrospect it was a huge mistake as nearly all my PC spellflingers (3 in my group) have picked it up and are wasting shedim, insect spirits, elementals at whim with it. I may have to see if I can retroactively fix it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.

[HappyDaze]

Okay, long story short: you should pick a type of spirit. You don't have to get crazy about it, Slay (Insect Spirit) works as well as Slay (Beast Spirit).

I would disagree here. 'Insect' is a tradition, not a spirit type - allowing Slay (Insect Spirit) would be the same as allowing Slay (Hermetic Spirit). If a seperate spell is needed for each type of spirit summoned by a hermetic magician (such as Slay [Fire Spirit] and Slay [Water Spirit]) then the same should apply to the spirits of an insect magician (so Slay [Warrior Spirit] and Slay [Worker Spirit] would be the parallel).

[Ancient History]

That's reasonable; I should have been more clear. What I meant is that you don't need to differentiate by insect spirit species. No need for separate Slay (Ant Nymph) and Slay (Roach Nymph) spells, that kind of thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wouldn't it be Slay (Roach Spirits), Slay (Wasp Spirits), and/or Slay (Shedim)?

[The Jake]

Wouldn't it be Slay (Roach Spirits), Slay (Wasp Spirits), and/or Slay (Shedim)?

Correct.

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Correct.

- J.

What I was thinking... thanks for providing the clarification

[Ancient History]

Either way is fair game based on the way the spell is worded; you just don't need two modifiers. Just like how Slay (Troll) works equally well on trolls, giants, fomori, fomoraig, and dzoo-noo-qua.

[HappyDaze]

Wouldn't it be Slay (Roach Spirits), Slay (Wasp Spirits), and/or Slay (Shedim)?

Unlike Fire/Air/Beast/etc. Spirits, there are multiple kinds of Wasp Spirits. The spell pertains to a specific type of Spirit, and I'd view that to be the differing base types (Warrior, Worker, Nymph, etc.) rather than the overlayed insect profile (Ant, Wasp, Beetle, etc.) but it's really whatever matters to your gamemaster that counts.

[HappyDaze]

Either way is fair game based on the way the spell is worded; you just don't need two modifiers. Just like how Slay (Troll) works equally well on trolls, giants, fomori, fomoraig, and dzoo-noo-qua.

And Slay Metahuman for those powergamers that'll try to tell you that not hurting the paracritters is enough to qualify as a restriction. And then there's Slay Biped, or... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Unlike Fire/Air/Beast/etc. Spirits, there are multiple kinds of Wasp Spirits. The spell pertains to a specific type of Spirit, and I'd view that to be the differing base types (Warrior, Worker, Nymph, etc.) rather than the overlayed insect profile (Ant, Wasp, Beetle, etc.) but it's really whatever matters to your gamemaster that counts.

Well, from a simple balance perspective, it's much less game-breaking than the ability to splatter general PC-callable spirits or the average you'll see on a run. By definition, insect spirits of ALL kinds are THREATs. Every time we see Crunchy Bits^TM for them, they are listed in EXACTLY the same category: THREATs. If you're doing a quest to cleanse Bug City, then the spell MIGHT be little powerful, but even then, they're nasty buggers. *snickers at the awful pun* But in every-day 'running? It's a waste of Karma and nuyen. It MIGHT come in handy if your GM decides to be nasty, but a "random" insect spirit doesn't just appear off an encounter table. I know I would have a lot more pressing requirements for my personal grimoire than "Slay Insect Spirit".

Also, I have to agree with Ancient History, Insect Spirit types seem to me more of a variation on a theme, like a metavariant. I would think of it like the fine diference between a Spirit of the Land, Earth Elemental, Soil Kami, or Rock Demon. All diferent manifestations of the same basic Porpose and energy, but with diferent powers and forms.

[Larme]

Isn't stunbolt already a spirit bolt? Spirits have no real defenses against it, and its drain is about as low as drain can possibly go.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Sounds fair.

Next question, are there any spirits which are not of a type? Is Slay Ally Spirit legal? Can you tell by looking that you're dealing with an ally OR does the magic know? You can't really do Slay Bound Spirit, right? Free spirits should always be of a specific type, shouldn't they?

[Dumori]

I'd let it work by tardition as well. Though salt hermatic spirt might be a tad powerful. And I would also let one go via they roll a sport play spell wise. Though for the latter two some knowledge test to know what traditin it is and such would be needed.

[Kerenshara]

Isn't stunbolt already a spirit bolt? Spirits have no real defenses against it, and its drain is about as low as drain can possibly go.

Because selecting a "very restricted" target gives an additonal -2 drain code. You could design it as a modifiction of Stun Bolt, and that would give you a net damage code of (F÷2)-3, meaning a F6 spell would be 0 drain. Now, a GM could say that since it's meant to cause permanent harm, you have to use the Power Bolt spell as a template, but that's not how the rules are actually written.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Because selecting a "very restricted" target gives an additonal -2 drain code. You could design it as a modifiction of Stun Bolt, and that would give you a net damage code of (F÷2)-3, meaning a F6 spell would be 0 drain. Now, a GM could say that since it's meant to cause permanent harm, you have to use the Power Bolt spell as a template, but that's not how the rules are actually written.

Well sure but a force 9 stun bolt is only 3 drain. knocking it down a couple drain doesn't seem worth the overly restrictive fire spirit designator. Heck even if it was a more general slay spirit I am not sure its worth it. spirits are kind of uncommon, i think that is a rare enough thing by itself. If I had to take slay spirit of man its just a waste of karma.

[Kerenshara]

Sounds fair.

Next question, are there any spirits which are not of a type? Is Slay Ally Spirit legal? Can you tell by looking that you're dealing with an ally OR does the magic know? You can't really do Slay Bound Spirit, right? Free spirits should always be of a specific type, shouldn't they?

You know, that's an excellent question, and I just re-read the Ally Spirit Formula design instructions again. There is NO mention of a "template" upon which to build the spirit. So an Ally Spirit is by definition somewhat unique. Given that their creation actually involves a HUGE amount of a (meta)human's Karma, it would not be unreasonable to say that they are each individual and unique unto themselves. That means you would essentially need to know the spirit's formula, and then it's a VERY selective spell that will ONLY Work on that spirit.
As to free spirits, they are still of the same core type, so Slay Fire Spirit works on summoned, bound OR free Fire Spirits. But Ally spirits would still be unique.
That's my call, anyhow, just trying to stick to the same basic logic troughout.

[Kerenshara]

Well sure but a force 9 stun bolt is only 3 drain. knocking it down a couple drain doesn't seem worth the overly restrictive fire spirit designator. Heck even if it was a more general slay spirit I am not sure its worth it. spirits are kind of uncommon, i think that is a rare enough thing by itself. If I had to take slay spirit of man its just a waste of karma.

"Just" three drain, sure... but are you overcasting with that Force 9 Stun Bolt? That's PHYSICAL damage , omae. I don't want to get back into that argument again, but I know I would want any way I could find to minimize physical drain. And if you can toss Force 9 Stun Bolts without overcasting, as Mike Okuda said "If you could build a starship at the push of a button, you wouldn't need to". I am thinking of the vastly overwhelming majority of mages who aren't middle grade initiates, here. And even amongst existing spells, there are a pile of them I can't ever see one of my 'runners taking, but they're there for completeness sake. And from a Crunch & Munch perspective, you only need to "waste" the Karma on the spirit types most often attacking you - Fire and Guardian come easily to mind, to the point of being cliché. The ability to drop them without even (literally) breaking a sweat sounds mighty appealing. And if you're a LOW Magic sorcerer (think: Mystic Adept here) you can SAFELY overcast to Force 6 without ANY consequences. THAT sounds pretty valuable to ME. But that's just my two centinuyen.

[The Jake]

Well sure but a force 9 stun bolt is only 3 drain. knocking it down a couple drain doesn't seem worth the overly restrictive fire spirit designator. Heck even if it was a more general slay spirit I am not sure its worth it. spirits are kind of uncommon, i think that is a rare enough thing by itself. If I had to take slay spirit of man its just a waste of karma.

That was my rationale at the time I allowed Slay Spirit. Now I'm not so certain...

- J.