The ultimate SR4 Poll, Time to settle things! (Not really). Options

[Larme]

So, I've recently been involved in arguments about what makes an accurate poll, and also whether SR4 is more of a good game than a bad game... One poster even claimed that it couldn't possibly be good because of how many house rule threads there are. So I decided: why not make a half-hearted attempt to discern who the members of Dumpshock are? Are they mostly SR4 supporters, or detractors? Do people think the game has more good than bad, or not? So here is my poll, designed with all of my half-forgotten polling expertise, learned from collegiate courses in inferential statistics and experimental psychology. Boosh!

Also, please think hard before you reply to the thread. I don't want a flame war about how good or bad SR4 is. I don't want to hear an elaboration of your poll choices. What I want is a discussion of the poll results, whether people think there are problems with the poll, and how they would interpret the results.

[Larme]

Damn, I already see a flaw -- for the third question, I'll have no idea whether 9 guys picked nothing and 1 guy picked all 9 options, or whether 10 guys all picked one option each. Oh well, it should be an interesting result, even though it won't lead to a solid inference about what the most preferred parts of the game are.

[Draco18s]

Damn, I already see a flaw -- for the third question, I'll have no idea whether 9 guys picked nothing and 1 guy picked all 9 options, or whether 10 guys all picked one option each. Oh well, it should be an interesting result, even though it won't lead to a solid inference about what the most preferred parts of the game are.

Such are forum polls. I think there's a website poll-hosting place out there that gives (the poll creator) a breakdown of who voted which way.

[GreyBrother]

As a good citizen, i voted! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Think the poll is okay for the things you want to find out. Somebody will complain that his option isn't available, but well, such is the nature of every poll and election.

[The Jake]

Voted.

Personally I find the rules better than most RPGs and more fun.

General fluff wise, I love it but that is largely owing to the 20 years of history the game has.

FWIW, I am not a fan of the recent fluff in the rulebooks at all (at least as far as its ability to educate new players and GMs over how things work). Particularly where old rules that have existed for the past 3 editions have basically disappeared with no explanation.

- J.

[Glyph]

The way it figures out percentages is messed up for the last question, but you can look at how many total votes there are for either of the first two questions, and extrapolate. For example, currently it looks like 18 people have voted, so that makes the 17 votes of people who like the fluff quite a bit higher than 20%.

[Dragnar]

Voted.
I'd be kinda surprised if anyone actually ticks "I like SR less than other RPGs". I mean, if that's the case, why come to Dumpshock in the first place?
And I wager the reason there are so many houserule discussions around here has less to do with the quality of SR and more to do with this being a more game mechanics interested board than usual. At least, that's a big part of the reason I hang around here. I hate that gygaxian "You shouldn't understand the rules and use them to your advantage! That ruins the fun!" with a passion.

[GreyBrother]

Dragnar: Now that you mention it... i never encountered a Rule Discussion in a oWoD Board (dunno about the new). Wonder why?

[Medicineman]

I voted too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I'd be kinda surprised if anyone actually ticks "I like SR less than other RPGs". I mean, if that's the case, why come to Dumpshock in the first place?
Maybe he can't find a Group for his favorite RPG,and has to stick with SR ? (nothing or the (for him)inferior System ?)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Blade]

I voted "About the same as other RPGs" but that's more complicated than that: rules-light games will always have less problems since they have less rules. In Smurf RPG, you just roll 1D6 (2 if that's your field) and it either smurf (4+) or doesn't smurf. The rules are simple and have no problems. SR4 rules are more complex and because of this are likely to have more problems. Furthermore, most of us play a lot of SR4 and sometimes go quite far so we're more likely to find rule problems in SR4 than in other games.
But even then, compared to other games I played or GM with the same amount of complexity, I don't feel like SR4 is better or worse than them rulewise...

I enjoy playing SR4 more than other games, for a lot of different reasons but most of them are linked to the game's world. I like how the magic has been integrated into the setting without turning it into a fantasy game, so I voted for the magic fluff too. The Matrix and Cyber fluff are ok too but they aren't anything special compared to other cyberpunk RPGs.
I voted for the rules too because they have, for me, the right amount of complexity: just enough to make things interesting and detailed wihtout being too complicated and bothering.

[HappyDaze]

I notice a distinct trend that the fluff is generally better regarded than the associated rules. Sure matches the way I feel about SR...

[LynGrey]

I have to admit, SR was one of my first RPGs i got into and knew what i was doing. In my gaming group a default gaming system is GURPs.. so when it comes to comparing the solidity of the rules.. i don't think many games can hold a candle to GURPS.... But i've mostly played DnD(and d20s), SR, and GURPS... and alot of little silly RPGs that were alive for like a month before they phased out. I have to admit.. SR is fun, kind of quick and dirty tho and i love RPing with SR.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Voted.
I'd be kinda surprised if anyone actually ticks "I like SR less than other RPGs". I mean, if that's the case, why come to Dumpshock in the first place?
And I wager the reason there are so many houserule discussions around here has less to do with the quality of SR and more to do with this being a more game mechanics interested board than usual. At least, that's a big part of the reason I hang around here. I hate that gygaxian "You shouldn't understand the rules and use them to your advantage! That ruins the fun!" with a passion.

Well there are still people playing 3rd edition and for them 4th is not the preferred version.

Never heard Gary say anything close to that. I have heard plenty of people attribute that to him though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I am surprised by how close the margins are between fluff and rules though. IMO, SR has always been a very cool place to play with rules that had a habit of making the brain baby kick.

If I was to nitpick...I would ask why you didn't ask...

Which version of SR rules do you prefer and then offer up all four versions, with the option of voting for version specific fluff and rules?

[Grinder]

No love left for the Matrix rules...

[Larme]

Voted.
I'd be kinda surprised if anyone actually ticks "I like SR less than other RPGs". I mean, if that's the case, why come to Dumpshock in the first place?

Lol, surprise! I suspect the person who voted that way comes to Dumpshock to troll and antagonize the hardcore SR fanbase. Just speculation though...

With the 54 respondents so far, it's pretty clear that most people on here are fans. The vast majority think the game has less than or as many rules problems as other RPGs, and most (70%) enjoy playing it more most than other RPGs. Only 6 respondents said it has more problems than other games, and only one said they enjoy it less than most other games. I think the most is important -- we're not asking if people have one game they prefer, we're asking whether they prefer almost all games over SR4, or vice versa. That means that our result is fairly meaningful. Those who said they enjoyed it more are really saying that they like it a lot, and the one who said they enjoyed it less is really coming down firmly against the game.

The poll is far from over, but early results follow my hypothesis that the board is mostly full of SR4 fans, not h8ers. My hypothesis is further that the h8ers tend to be a lot more vocal than the fans, and so the board acquires a disproportionate amount of SR4 hate. But in a poll where everyone can only vote once, and no vote can be louder than any other, they can't skew perceptions as easily (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It also seems like, in general, people prefer fluff aspects more than they prefer rules aspects. So while the third result is fairly hard to quanity, my impression so far is that, while most people think the rules are less flawed or just as flawed as other games, they also think that Shadowrun's unique setting is its most important feature. One factor behind that result could be that even people who don't like the rules probably like the fluff -- that would explain why they're on Dumpshock, other than as trolls (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Blade]

No love left for the Matrix rules...

Even if I don't hate them like some people do, I don't think they are one of "the best quality" of SR. They're "just" good enough.

@Larme: You seem to forget that the most vocal haters/trolls are often the biggest fans... Ordinary people, or people who don't like it just don't care.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Ummm...

*raises his hand in the back of the hall*

Excuse me. 54 out of 10,000...qualifies as most???
Most of the respondents...yes.

Your comparison is between SR4 and -----other----- RPGs. Does anyone else see the pink elephant in the room?

Your poll is skewed towards achieving the results that you went fishing for. Do you happen to work in politics? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

Somebody will complain that his option isn't available, but well, such is the nature of every poll and election.

Which is precisely why I always include an "Other (Please Explain)" option.

Such an option is not needed for the first two, because they are essentially a Yes-No question (the only thing Other is not needed for), but should have been included in Question 3.

[Larme]

Ummm...

*raises his hand in the back of the hall*

Excuse me. 54 out of 10,000...qualifies as most???
Most of the respondents...yes.

Yeah, I think I indicated that. To quote myself, "With the 54 respondents so far..." I'm under no illusions that I have a representative sample yet. It might get there, it might not. Even if it did, to be sure that I had a representative sample I'd have to bust out a statistics prog and run the numbers. And I a) don't have one and b) don't remember how to do it. I was just ruminating about how the results so far conformed with my hypotheses, not that they constituted anything like proof.

Your comparison is between SR4 and -----other----- RPGs. Does anyone else see the pink elephant in the room?

No, I don't. Care to elaborate?

My own reasoning is thus: in order to have a valuable result, you must poll some kind of objective standard. If you ask "how good is SR4?" you have an invalid poll, because it's completely amorphous. Two people might like the game exactly as much, but because terms like "good" and "excellent" and "average" are relative, there's a good chance they wouldn't answer the same way. One person might call their enjoyment "excellent" and another might call it "good," even though in reality their enjoyment is pretty much equivalent.

The objective standard gives people a point of reference. I'm using relative language like "more," "the same," and "less" in order to ensure that everyone is using approximately the same reference point. That's not to say that they all have the same breadth of experience of RPGs, but at the very least they're all answering the same question.

One way I can see why you'd think my poll was skewed is if you started with the preconception that everyone on Dumpshock definitely liked SR4 more than other games. Then, you might jump to the conclusion that a favorable response was a foregone conclusion and that this poll was not genuine. I did not start with that preconception -- I genuinely want to know if that's the case. Is Dumpshock full of people who like Shadowrun, or is there a large population that actually dislikes it because of whatever flaws it might have?

And overall, this poll lacks the serious flaws that a really skewed poll would have. Over and over, I see polls on Dumpshock that make the answer that the poster doesn't like sound really unattractive. This poll would be skewed towards the answer I wanted if, say, one option had been "Shadowrun rules!" and another had been "Duh, me no likey." Each answer is based on the same point of reference, and each one is phrased with equally neutral language. That is the exact opposite of a skewed poll. You might think I asked the wrong question, but there's no way this poll gets a skewed response to the question I actually asked.

Which is precisely why I always include an "Other (Please Explain)" option.

Such an option is not needed for the first two, because they are essentially a Yes-No question (the only thing Other is not needed for), but should have been included in Question 3.

Other is not a very useful response. Especially because it's likely to start a flame war and derail the post, which is supposed to be about the poll.

I did just figure out how to use the data I collected, though -- at first glance, it's not useful because we can't know whether the responses are based on a small group of people who selected all 9 or close to it, or a larger group who all selected 2-5 answers each. However, looking at each category compared to the total number of respondents, we can see how many people who took the poll selected a given answer. Right now, with 54/67 people saying that the fluff in general is one of the game's best qualities, we know that the fluff is an overwhelming reason why the respondents like the game. With only 8/67 selecting the matrix rules, we know that most respondents do not think they're a best feature. So there is some interesting stuff that will come out of that third question.

[Jaid]

Which version of SR rules do you prefer and then offer up all four versions, with the option of voting for version specific fluff and rules?

probably because last i heard the ban on SR3 vs SR4 threads has not been lifted. essentially, some people can't discuss the question of which is better in a civil manner.

[Stahlseele]

About the Same. Because no system has as many beta testers as people that will play and find problems.
About the Same. Meaning not all that much to begin with.
Last three checked.
Because i am a Sucker for Cyberware and Character Fluff.
Worst part of the SR4 Fluff is the Crash 2.0.
I won't go into why i frigging hate that piece of writing again.

[Jaid]

Worst part of the SR4 Fluff is the Crash 2.0.

strictly speaking, system failure (the crash 2.0) is an SR3 book...

[CodeBreaker]

I quite like all the Crash stuff. Its the Immortal Elves I dont like. I dont know why, but I was a much happier Shadowrun player before I started reading some of the Fluff and found out about things like the Horrors and Immortal Elves. Infact I am a bit meh about a fair bit of the magical stuff. Sure, its nice, but I prefer the street level nitty gritty, gun slingin', computer hackin', cyberarm wielding Shadowrun.

It probably doesnt help that I havent really fully read up on them (Hitting Tir Tairngire (sp?) and Tir na Nog (sp?) sourcebooks tommorow, might be more in there)

My favourite part of Shadowrun is actually the Matrix. Sure, the current rule system is really quite a beast to work with, but with some fiddling it is a fun little addon to the game. Plus its easy to write short stories about (Next Week, on the Adventures of CodeBreaker the Technomancer!) without knowing the entire 20 year backstory.

[Cain]

You'd be surprised. Dumpshock is a Shadowrun forum, so it'd tend to attract Shadowrun fans. True Shadowrun h8rs would have been run off or banned a long time ago.

For the record, I voted "Has about the same rules problems as other games", because that's honestly how I see it. SR4 is not the new FATAL. It's got problems, though, and there's no point in whitewashing over them and pretending they don't exist. On my personal scale, SR4 comes in somewhere around Gurps and Hero, both worthy systems in their own right, but not without their problems.

[Larme]

You'd be surprised. Dumpshock is a Shadowrun forum, so it'd tend to attract Shadowrun fans. True Shadowrun h8rs would have been run off or banned a long time ago.

For the record, I voted "Has about the same rules problems as other games", because that's honestly how I see it. SR4 is not the new FATAL. It's got problems, though, and there's no point in whitewashing over them and pretending they don't exist. On my personal scale, SR4 comes in somewhere around Gurps and Hero, both worthy systems in their own right, but not without their problems.

If you like Shadowrun, you could make it clearer. It would make people get a lot less angry at you and start a lot fewer flame wars. I know I've seen you directly state that its flaws make it a poor quality game, which is a statement that's hard to square with what you're saying now.