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[Chrysalis]

The thread was supposed to be Unobtanium, a member of a family of the handwavium of substances

This is something that has been brewing in my mind for a while. It revolves that there are things that corporations and governments have access to that are simply beyond the budget of Shadowrunners.

Tanks, A-T weaponry, sensor systems way beyond anything in the books, 40 dice firewalls, aerospace fighters, cybernetics not on the market, cyborg shells.

I think it's good that the Shadowrun books focus on what is obtainable by Shadowrunners and not the unobtainables. Really when was the last time a runner could afford his/her lifestyle let alone the 1.5 billion nuyen patrol corvette (why yes I just parked it down at the marina)?

As a GM I find it fine that there are things that Shadowrunners do not have access to. I also do not see why in an OCD way everything has to be described to nauseating detail.

[the_real_elwood]

It doesn't bother me either that lots of high-level weaponry and equipment doesn't get statted out. But it does limit what you can do with the rules. Not having high-end military stuff statted out is fine for playing your standard shadowrunners, but what if you want to play a game where the characters are elite SF operators, with access to that kind of fancy gear? It's not impossible, but it does force some creativity on the GM to come up with appropriate stats.

And in SR3, they did have aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines statted out in Rigger 3, so it's not like there's no precedent for having that kind of stuff statted out.

[Stahlseele]

Because there is more than just one way to play shadowrun.
Mercenary Style Campaign for example. Or high life, low skill, no Morals.
Also, such things are more or less available even as of today.
I would certainly expect some sort of representation of todays stuf in SR.

[Backgammon]

I don't see the point of statting out very large vehicules like ships aside as an exercise of geek masturbation. I mean, do you stat out buildings? You're on a ship, that's all you need to know. If your ship gets attacked by another ship, the GM is basically going to story-tell the combat, not roll it out.

You *could* have an alternative campaign where you are captain of a battleship, but I don't lament the omission of stats for a battleship for the .00001% gamers that will be running this campaign. SR4 made a decision to go back to the street roots of runners. I agree with that decision.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't see the point of statting out very large vehicules like ships aside as an exercise of geek masturbation. I mean, do you stat out buildings? You're on a ship, that's all you need to know. If your ship gets attacked by another ship, the GM is basically going to story-tell the combat, not roll it out.

You *could* have an alternative campaign where you are captain of a battleship, but I don't lament the omission of stats for a battleship for the .00001% gamers that will be running this campaign. SR4 made a decision to go back to the street roots of runners. I agree with that decision.

Amen to that...

[TheOOB]

If tanks and battleships are common enough where they need stats as vehicles and are not set pieces, then you really arn't playing shadow run anymore. It's like asking why D&D doesn't support laser pistols, it's just not within the scope of the game.

[the_real_elwood]

If tanks and battleships are common enough where they need stats as vehicles and are not set pieces, then you really arn't playing shadow run anymore. It's like asking why D&D doesn't support laser pistols, it's just not within the scope of the game.

Who are you to say what is and isn't shadowrun? Is it not legitimate to run something like a Desert Wars campaign? Or to play as corp or government soldiers? There's a whole lot of potential for different things for players to do within the shadowrun world, and it seems awfully stupid to intentionally limit yourself. I don't think stats for high-end military gear like that is necessary or pressing, and I know nothing like that is on the radar for upcoming products, but I wouldn't be pissed if something like that got released. So what if it's there. Use it if you want, don't use it otherwise.

And, D&D does support laser pistols. At least, it did in 1E. There was a published adventure (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) where the players investigated the site of a spaceship crash, complete with robots, power armor, and laser pistols. The stuff got to be a bit overpowered for a fantasy world, but it was there. And players had fun with it.

[Kerenshara]

Is it not legitimate to run something like a Desert Wars campaign? Or to play as corp or government soldiers? There's a whole lot of potential for different things for players to do within the shadowrun world, and it seems awfully stupid to intentionally limit yourself.

Does anybody actually remember Fields of Fire? That covered the mid-range military hardware and looked at Desert Wars and mercenary/miltary-centric campaigns. Heck, a good amount of the 4^th ed fluff covers things of that nature. It was never especially my cup of tea, but it's an important facet of the larger 6^th World. I looked into it seriously... and for people interested in former Merc or ex-military characters, there was important perspective in there.

I don't think stats for high-end military gear like that is necessary or pressing, and I know nothing like that is on the radar for upcoming products, but I wouldn't be pissed if something like that got released. So what if it's there. Use it if you want, don't use it otherwise.

Um, actually, from the chats on the Shadowrun4.com website, there have been SEVERAL hints that real military hardware will get a serious brush this year (assuming Catalyst sticks to their ambitious schedule) and even a couple forshadowings of a hot war. Like The_Real_Elwood said, if you don't like or want it, don't buy it. But if a serious hot war breaks out in the 6^th world, expect it to have as far reaching consequences as the assasination of Big D. Then it will be your choice to accept the developments or decide to freeze your own timeline and go your own way. I know where I will stand in the event that war breaks out in the 6^th world. My biggest curiosity is if it will be national (Say CAS vs. Aztlan; Everybody vs. Aztlan; NAN vs. UCAS) or corporate (There've been a LOT of big shakeups lately, more than at any time since the Shaiwase Decision, destabilizing the delicate balance in the AAA Corporate world.) or maybe one will help destabilize and sill over into the other. MY real question is going to be "where will Kerenshara stand in the event of war?" because war in the 6^th world is certain to offer all kinds of prime opportunities for ambitious 'runners.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does anybody actually remember Fields of Fire? That covered the mid-range military hardware and looked at Desert Wars and mercenary/miltary-centric campaigns. Heck, a good amount of the 4^th ed fluff covers things of that nature. It was never especially my cup of tea, but it's an important facet of the larger 6^th World. I looked into it seriously... and for people interested in former Merc or ex-military characters, there was important perspective in there.


Um, actually, from the chats on the Shadowrun4.com website, there have been SEVERAL hints that real military hardware will get a serious brush this year (assuming Catalyst sticks to their ambitious schedule) and even a couple forshadowings of a hot war. Like The_Real_Elwood said, if you don't like or want it, don't buy it. But if a serious hot war breaks out in the 6^th world, expect it to have as far reaching consequences as the assasination of Big D. Then it will be your choice to accept the developments or decide to freeze your own timeline and go your own way. I know where I will stand in the event that war breaks out in the 6^th world. My biggest curiosity is if it will be national (Say CAS vs. Aztlan; Everybody vs. Aztlan; NAN vs. UCAS) or corporate (There've been a LOT of big shakeups lately, more than at any time since the Shaiwase Decision, destabilizing the delicate balance in the AAA Corporate world.) or maybe one will help destabilize and sill over into the other. MY real question is going to be "where will Kerenshara stand in the event of war?" because war in the 6^th world is certain to offer all kinds of prime opportunities for ambitious 'runners.

WAR IS GOOD for Business

[the_real_elwood]

Does anybody actually remember Fields of Fire? That covered the mid-range military hardware and looked at Desert Wars and mercenary/miltary-centric campaigns. Heck, a good amount of the 4^th ed fluff covers things of that nature. It was never especially my cup of tea, but it's an important facet of the larger 6^th World. I looked into it seriously... and for people interested in former Merc or ex-military characters, there was important perspective in there.


Um, actually, from the chats on the Shadowrun4.com website, there have been SEVERAL hints that real military hardware will get a serious brush this year (assuming Catalyst sticks to their ambitious schedule) and even a couple forshadowings of a hot war. Like The_Real_Elwood said, if you don't like or want it, don't buy it. But if a serious hot war breaks out in the 6^th world, expect it to have as far reaching consequences as the assasination of Big D. Then it will be your choice to accept the developments or decide to freeze your own timeline and go your own way. I know where I will stand in the event that war breaks out in the 6^th world. My biggest curiosity is if it will be national (Say CAS vs. Aztlan; Everybody vs. Aztlan; NAN vs. UCAS) or corporate (There've been a LOT of big shakeups lately, more than at any time since the Shaiwase Decision, destabilizing the delicate balance in the AAA Corporate world.) or maybe one will help destabilize and sill over into the other. MY real question is going to be "where will Kerenshara stand in the event of war?" because war in the 6^th world is certain to offer all kinds of prime opportunities for ambitious 'runners.

Well that's swell news. Admittedly, I don't follow the chats particularly closely, so I had no idea that it was hinted. I loved Fields of Fire, and it was great for campaign ideas, but as far as actual crunch for military equipment, it wasn't terribly heavy and most of it has been covered in Arsenal. But I'd love to see an SR4 adaption of the fancier gear from the Cannon Comp and Rigger 3, and maybe even some new stuff thrown in. That kind of stuff IS my cup of tea, though, so I'm a bit biased. None of the games I ever played in, I ever came close to touching that kind of gear, but it was still fun to think about.

[Kerenshara]

Well that's swell news. Admittedly, I don't follow the chats particularly closely, so I had no idea that it was hinted. I loved Fields of Fire, and it was great for campaign ideas, but as far as actual crunch for military equipment, it wasn't terribly heavy and most of it has been covered in Arsenal. But I'd love to see an SR4 adaption of the fancier gear from the Cannon Comp and Rigger 3, and maybe even some new stuff thrown in. That kind of stuff IS my cup of tea, though, so I'm a bit biased. None of the games I ever played in, I ever came close to touching that kind of gear, but it was still fun to think about.

LOL, if I ever have to resort to that kind of gear myself as a 'runner, I know I've got lots bigger issues to contend with. Sure, at some point, assuming she lives long enough to reach Prime Runner status, I can see Kerenshara in a T-Bird tangling with opponents serious oponents or even in the back seat of a trans-atmospheric fighter if the Johnson has enough pull. I should have clarified that it's not the gear that I am ambivalent to, but the mercenary campaign / hard military campaign; I feel like it looses a little bit of what I think makes the 6th World unique, but that's me, and it doesn't mean it won't wind up figuring prominently as a tandem event.

[The Jake]

The thread was supposed to be Unobtanium, a member of a family of the handwavium of substances

This is something that has been brewing in my mind for a while. It revolves that there are things that corporations and governments have access to that are simply beyond the budget of Shadowrunners.

Tanks, A-T weaponry, sensor systems way beyond anything in the books, 40 dice firewalls, aerospace fighters, cybernetics not on the market, cyborg shells.

I think it's good that the Shadowrun books focus on what is obtainable by Shadowrunners and not the unobtainables. Really when was the last time a runner could afford his/her lifestyle let alone the 1.5 billion nuyen patrol corvette (why yes I just parked it down at the marina)?

As a GM I find it fine that there are things that Shadowrunners do not have access to. I also do not see why in an OCD way everything has to be described to nauseating detail.

Just what number of runners do you think would have access to Aguiller attack choppers, nuclear submarines and cybermancy clinics?

- J.

[Larme]

Tanks, A-T weaponry, sensor systems way beyond anything in the books, 40 dice firewalls, aerospace fighters, cybernetics not on the market, cyborg shells.

Anti-tank weaponry, we can get. We can get naval lasers, FFS. Those will pop tanks open.

Tanks, they just have no place in the game. No Shadowrunner would be dumb enough to fight a tank, nor would they have any good reason to drive one. They would work for a military or mercenary game, but they just don't belong in basic Shadowrun. But yeah, you're probably right that they're beyond a Shadowrunner's budget, they'd cost at least a million yen I'd imagine.

As for for die firewalls, they don't exist. Unwired lists rating 7 firewalls as the unonbtainable prototype super programs. Not rating 40.

I think it's good that the Shadowrun books focus on what is obtainable by Shadowrunners and not the unobtainables. Really when was the last time a runner could afford his/her lifestyle let alone the 1.5 billion nuyen patrol corvette (why yes I just parked it down at the marina)?

This I agree with completely. Rigger 3 was almost offensive to me. They wanted me to pay money for a book that was 1/4 naval combat and 1/4 space travel? My ass.

[Kerenshara]

Just what number of runners do you think would have access to Aguiller attack choppers, nuclear submarines and cybermancy clinics?

- J.

Quite a few once they get to Prime Runner status, none with half a brain, and ... who'd WANT to voluntarily? *shudder*

Dual-role helos aren't that tough with enough nuyen. Their weapons and attack electronics are another matter, but they're also small enough to smuggle a LOT more easily, which means they're available for a price. And if you're going after a remote site, having one might be workable. Besides, it's the rigger's toy. And t-birds are right up there too, you know.

[Kerenshara]

No Shadowrunner would be dumb enough to fight a tank, nor would they have any good reason to drive one.

Um, tanks aren't unstoppable, especially if the GM allows for creativity.

As to driving one, give me PCA (Powered Combat Armor) any day - all the firepower, three times the mobility at a tenth the cost.

This I agree with completely. Rigger 3 was almost offensive to me. They wanted me to pay money for a book that was 1/4 naval combat and 1/4 space travel? My ass.

I never bought the thing, but things like that are mostly reference as props/background for adventures - like escaping from or being based off of that corvette, or winding up on that space station or being chased by an avenging aerospace fighter.

[the_real_elwood]

Anti-tank weaponry, we can get. We can get naval lasers, FFS. Those will pop tanks open.

Tanks, they just have no place in the game. No Shadowrunner would be dumb enough to fight a tank, nor would they have any good reason to drive one. They would work for a military or mercenary game, but they just don't belong in basic Shadowrun. But yeah, you're probably right that they're beyond a Shadowrunner's budget, they'd cost at least a million yen I'd imagine.

As for for die firewalls, they don't exist. Unwired lists rating 7 firewalls as the unonbtainable prototype super programs. Not rating 40.



This I agree with completely. Rigger 3 was almost offensive to me. They wanted me to pay money for a book that was 1/4 naval combat and 1/4 space travel? My ass.

I think it would be tough to find a use for the naval rules (when am I going to run into a supercarrier in-game?). But I think that Rigger 3 was worth it for the vehicle customization rules, and the extra drones/vehicles in there. You can do some pretty neat stuff with the vehicle customization rules, and they're a lot of fun to play around with, if nothing else.

[The Jake]

Quite a few once they get to Prime Runner status, none with half a brain, and ... who'd WANT to voluntarily? *shudder*

Dual-role helos aren't that tough with enough nuyen. Their weapons and attack electronics are another matter, but they're also small enough to smuggle a LOT more easily, which means they're available for a price. And if you're going after a remote site, having one might be workable. Besides, it's the rigger's toy. And t-birds are right up there too, you know.

I'm sorry if my question was imprecise: what percentage of campaigns go long enough for this to be an issue? If your answer is the same then I suspect you are running/ playing in a rather large (and odd) number of jigh powered campaigns.

I don't think all items are there for the PCs to acquire, although granted they may get to - even if it is temporary.

- J.

[Muspellsheimr]

40 dice firewalls,

Try reading Unwired.

As for for die firewalls, they don't exist. Unwired lists rating 7 firewalls as the unonbtainable prototype super programs. Not rating 40.

Zurich Orbital (Terrestrial Station) has a 9.

[Chrysalis]

It is interesting to note that half of you are against the idea that there are things which are not in the games. The other half I agree with.

If people really want to play a military campaign, let's play with Phoenix Command, or then use a wargame.

I will also point out that the majority of modern squad-based military weaponry is already beyond what is mentioned in Arsenal in terms of lethality, accuracy and ease of use.

[Prime Mover]

Try reading Unwired.


Zurich Orbital (Terrestrial Station) has a 9.

Unwired also states UV systems require a minimum rating 10 system. Ive extrapolated the basic grouping of ratings 1-3, 4-6 to include 7-9 and 10-12 for hardware and software ratings. Making 7-9 obtainable but not easily and 10-12 the holy grail of hacker goodness. I've had one player who wanted to write his own rating 12 program. Showing me he could cut the time in half (more if rushed) using the right gear and with the assistance of one other hacker he could do it by the rules in just a few months of downtime.

[Stahlseele]

And then it will detoriate, if he does not constanly write his own patches and updates and bugfixes for it too.

[Traul]

I've had one player who wanted to write his own rating 12 program. Showing me he could cut the time in half (more if rushed) using the right gear and with the assistance of one other hacker he could do it by the rules in just a few months of downtime.

And on which system does he intend to run this beast?

[Stahlseele]

Some sort of Cluster i would guess.

[Chibu]

Does anybody actually remember Fields of Fire?

Well sure I remember it. It's sitting right over there *points*. I use it pretty much every time a make a character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Prime Mover]

He could run it on a system 6 comm as long as program had the optimization option. I'm definitely causing him grief over it. Not only discussing patching issues, he's also had a mysterious hacker stalking him. (G.O.D. hacker thats caught wind of his elicit skills.)

I've decided one program wouldn't unbalance our game. The groups past Technomancer routinely broke the rating 6 cap. And its allowed me to add some additional story elements.