I didn't really like Harlequin's Back [spoilers!], The plot wagon came from Mad Max: The Road Warrior Options

[Wounded Ronin]

[This post will be spoilericious!]

A while ago I bought a copy of Harlequin's Back from a used book store and I've read through it.

Basically, I don't think I like it very much, because it is basically a big plot wagon with spiked wheels resembling a vehicle out of Mad Max: The Road Warrior. It's like a 1960s surreal-moralistic episode of Star Trek (remember the one where Kirk et al. end up in a Western setting they can't leave and which doesn't obey the laws of physics because someone wants to test how they react to threats?) but with more obnoxious preaching. Guess what, the way YOU remember the King Arthur legends isn't good enough, you have to accept and work with the pseudo-celtic version or else your character will be teabagged by all-powerful feminist NPCs. And there's nothing you are allowed to do about that or you character will DIE.

Having NPCs with skill levels of 40 is bullshit. What kind of joke is that? That right there, in print, says, "if the characters don't go along with the writer's ideas for this setting, crush them like bugs."

There is too much, "fudge the rolls, make them sweat, but make sure everything happens according to plan", to the point where I can't imagine the players wouldn't see through it. In the first place Harlequin is supposed to be so powerful he doesn't need stats, but then when he gets attacked by tentacle monsters he is supposed to fall down frothing. But then he's invincible again till a specific point where the PCs find him all naked and tortured and upside down. I basically don't see how any player who thinks isn't going to realize that Harlequin amounts to a "cinema scene" and not a real NPC with stats.

Basically I thought Harlequin's Back was the most sanctimonious, railroady, judgemental campaign I'd ever read in a RPG. And to top it all off with a cherry at the end it says that FASA still hasn't decided what happens at the end, but that it's still in the works and planning if the horrors will be part of the metaplot later or not. So what the hell, all that railroading and Celtic feminist beatdown was literally for nothing, because the writers have no idea what actually happened in the end. Great.

[Chibu]

You're too picky. I liked it when we played through it. You're just jealous because Harlequin's Too Cool for Stats™. And Tom Dowd wanted to have PCs be able to take part in the metaplot, but he didn't want them to mess it up.

Unrelated to your post though; it was a good story.

[Eleint]

You're not too picky. Harlequin's Back was a lot like some of the worst of the White Wolf/oWoD/Aberrant adventures: designed so that nothing the PCs did could push the plot off the rails and showcasing how 'uber-c00l' the writer's pet NPC is while they ooh and ahh at what the NPC is doing. It's like an official GMPC adventure.

- Eleint

[Professeur]

You're too picky. I liked it when we played through it. You're just jealous because Harlequin's Too Cool for Stats™. And Tom Dowd wanted to have PCs be able to take part in the metaplot, but he didn't want them to mess it up.

Unrelated to your post though; it was a good story.

What the fuck is this about ? What good / interesting / useful is this metaplot of yours if players aren't allowed to mess it up ? They aren't taking part in it if they aren't able to change the outcome ; they're just extras. If I want a good story, I'll read a goddamn novel, thank you very much. I'm gaming because I actually want to game, IE affect the outcome of events my character is a part of.

[the_real_elwood]

What the fuck is this about ? What good / interesting / useful is this metaplot of yours if players aren't allowed to mess it up ? They aren't taking part in it if they aren't able to change the outcome ; they're just extras. If I want a good story, I'll read a goddamn novel, thank you very much. I'm gaming because I actually want to game, IE affect the outcome of events my character is a part of.

Well, its kind of a shitty excuse, but the point of the adventure is that you get to affect how it happens, if not what actually happens. I haven't played it, and it doesn't seem like a particularly fun adventure to me, but I can see how some people would find it appealing to be able to take part in world-shaking events like that.

[Professeur]

Well, its kind of a shitty excuse, but the point of the adventure is that you get to affect how it happens, if not what actually happens. I haven't played it, and it doesn't seem like a particularly fun adventure to me, but I can see how some people would find it appealing to be able to take part in world-shaking events like that.

Taking part in world-shaking events is fine, I don't play these kind of games but I certainly wouldn't mind. I just don't see the appeal of an adventure where stuff is going to happen, no matter what the PCs do, except for a handful of details. To me, it just looks like the writer is swinging around this huge NPC dick, just like the Forgotten Realms franchise used to do with the likes of Elminster and Drizzt. "Look how big and powerful my NPC is ! Don't you wish you were that cool ?"

[BlueMax]

While I hate "watch the plot go by" adventures as much as the next man, what published Adventures let you alter the course of the metaplot?

The answer should be none


BlueMax
/unless you count rigged elections
//the green revolution does not

[Eleint]

This is why in general metaplot's not used much anymore in most RPGs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most of the companies that were majorly into metaplot aren't anymore. I'm glad. I want to play a game, not read amateur authors' attempts at fiction.

As for taking part in world-shaping events, if the players and GM want that to happen, it's easily doable. Just have to run the campaign that way. Have PCs create their own Megacorp through lots of hard work and tons of Karma. Have them take down Lofwyr. Better than watching NPCs. There's nothing wrong with high-end games.

[BlueMax]

This is why in general metaplot's not used much anymore in most RPGs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most of the companies that were majorly into metaplot aren't anymore. I'm glad. I want to play a game, not read amateur authors' attempts at fiction.

As for taking part in world-shaping events, if the players and GM want that to happen, it's easily doable. Just have to run the campaign that way. Have PCs create their own Megacorp through lots of hard work and tons of Karma. Have them take down Lofwyr. Better than watching NPCs. There's nothing wrong with high-end games.

Or low end games. We had a gang campaign and the players did a good job of owning their hood. Mostly through social control and dependency. Now, take a Drug Cartel Metaplot, its going to push it into their hood. While I am all for the opposition pushing on the players, keeping them sharp, handwaving "THe players should know not to fight here and run like little chickendreks" gets old faster t...
Man it got old already.


BlueMax

[Eleint]

Or low end games. We had a gang campaign and the players did a good job of owning their hood. Mostly through social control and dependency. Now, take a Drug Cartel Metaplot, its going to push it into their hood. While I am all for the opposition pushing on the players, keeping them sharp, handwaving "THe players should know not to fight here and run like little chickendreks" gets old faster t... Man it got old already.

Oh definitely. I'd love a low-end SR game based on a 'neighborhood' and 'weird events'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Probably by dropping the amount spendable on resources and putting a hard cap on magic (say Magic 3) and magical resources.

[Synner667]

This is why in general metaplot's not used much anymore in most RPGs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most of the companies that were majorly into metaplot aren't anymore. I'm glad. I want to play a game, not read amateur authors' attempts at fiction.

As for taking part in world-shaping events, if the players and GM want that to happen, it's easily doable. Just have to run the campaign that way. Have PCs create their own Megacorp through lots of hard work and tons of Karma. Have them take down Lofwyr. Better than watching NPCs. There's nothing wrong with high-end games.

Actually, some companies did world-altering metaplots quite well - TORG for instance had info that you submitted which supposedly helped to shape the overall campaign. Don't they do something similar with the SR Missions ??

Or low end games. We had a gang campaign and the players did a good job of owning their hood. Mostly through social control and dependency. Now, take a Drug Cartel Metaplot, its going to push it into their hood. While I am all for the opposition pushing on the players, keeping them sharp, handwaving "THe players should know not to fight here and run like little chickendreks" gets old faster t...
Man it got old already.

I think you might find that there are few low-level games because players whine that their characters aren't powerful enough. Low-level games have done quite well in the RPG hobby, up until quite recently and the prevalence of videogames and easy power-ups and levelling.

For most games, there's little difference in the characters between "low-level", "mid-level" and _high-level" apart from skill levels, attribute levels and the amount os damage they can dish out - they rarely behave differently, or act like people of relevant power level [D&D had some good stuff about playing a high level character].

[the_real_elwood]

Taking part in world-shaking events is fine, I don't play these kind of games but I certainly wouldn't mind. I just don't see the appeal of an adventure where stuff is going to happen, no matter what the PCs do, except for a handful of details. To me, it just looks like the writer is swinging around this huge NPC dick, just like the Forgotten Realms franchise used to do with the likes of Elminster and Drizzt. "Look how big and powerful my NPC is ! Don't you wish you were that cool ?"

I can't argue with you on that one.

Coincidentally, though, I always thought that Forgotten Realms was the most vibrant and alive of any of the D&D settings. I really like having the metaplot out there, and the iconic characters like that give a feeling of depth to the world. But an adventure that's so heavily involved with the iconic characters is usually bad news, as they're always going to take center stage.

I think having characters run into major players like Harlequin can potentially be very cool, but it has to be done carefully. And it certainly ought to be brief at most, lest the iconic character become too much the focus of the game. But a brief encounter can give players a sense of events happening in the overall world that are bigger than themselves. As long as the players are still controlling the destiny of their own characters and aren't too much railroaded by the metaplot, giving them the sense of bigger things can really make the game world seem alive.

[crizh]

Funny, as a GM I always found the concept of Harlequin fairly liberating.

I don't know about your game but there is almost always one pointless moron who's instant reaction to any Metaplot NPC is 'I shoot him in the face.'

Lulz.

Not.

Having explicit, black and white permission to crush the w*nker like the bug he/she was I found very liberating. I didn't have to listen to all the pointless bull-drek about how the PC's stat's were so much better than the NPC and therefore it was 'unfair' to protect the NPC from such random motivationless violence. No, no your stat's are not better, no you don't even stand a chance of 'getting lucky', not even a one in a million shot.

You have behaved like a pointless moron and gotten what you deserved, go make up a new character.

It is the perfect scenario for rpg noobs. It breaks them of some of their most annoying habits and forces them to consider doing some role-playing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of power-playing but only if there is a good story to go along with it.

[Eleint]

Having explicit, black and white permission to crush the w*nker like the bug he/she was I found very liberating. I didn't have to listen to all the pointless bull-drek about how the PC's stat's were so much better than the NPC and therefore it was 'unfair' to protect the NPC from such random motivationless violence. No, no your stat's are not better, no you don't even stand a chance of 'getting lucky', not even a one in a million shot. It is the perfect scenario for rpg noobs. It breaks them of some of their most annoying habits and forces them to consider doing some role-playing.

See, I cannot understand this logic at all. Wouldn't it be better to discuss the issue with them OOC rather than punishing them for possibly poor behavior ICly? That seems kind of passive aggressive to me. Act like adults, don't use uber-NPCs to 'punish' or to force them down a path you want, that's condenscending.

[crizh]

You would think.

But no.

Some people just aren't willing to listen, they need an in game reality check.

Harlequin was one of the very first scenarios to explicitly give the GM permission to do so. While the GM had always had that power it was tremendously helpful to have someone officially say 'You have the power, use it for good.'

It's not like it is limited to Harlequin. Go after any of the major SR NPC's and I'll bitch slap you back into the Fourth World.

Major NPC's are not Mount Everest, it is unacceptable to try to kill them just because they are there.

Come up with a decent motivation and a well thought out plan and then I'll probably bitch slap you anyways but I'll probably pull my punches a little. Persist after that and there might be an epic campaign in it.

[Fuchs]

Even the final sacrifice of the PCs in this adventure doesn't matter at all, it gets rendered useless by the Dragonheart trilogy. See how cool our uber-npc is, jump through our hoops, then sacrifice your character to save the world... but that's a lie, hur hur! Only special NPCs get to do that!

I still remember H1, where our inexperienced GM missed the page about "no one can touch the IEs, they are so pwoerful they don't get stats, just have them overpower the PCs if the act uppity", and so we managed to knock out Ehran and drag his butt to Harlequin during the last run like any other extraction target.

[Eleint]

You would think. But no. Some people just aren't willing to listen, they need an in game reality check.

All I can say is ... wow. I'd never game with you. I find this sort of behavior entirely inappropriate. Have fun, I guess.

[crizh]

All I can say is ... wow. I'd never game with you. I find this sort of behavior entirely inappropriate. Have fun, I guess.

And I find this sort of response, what was that word you already used but I chose to ignore?

Oh, yes, condescending.

Debate the point made but keep your personal crap to yourself.

[Vermithrax]

I ran this (HB) a few years ago, only I disabled the "PCs cant really affect anything worthwhile" portions of the adventure.
Needless to say they failed.
Their new characters are dealing with the ramifications of what happened to the world as a result. A 10 year planetwide war resulting in a apocalyptic shadowrun setting where the Enemy mercilessly hunt the weak and the peoples of the world have lost hope. The corporate court has set itself up on the Lunar surface, salvaging what it can of Earth's resources and leaving untold millions of people to rot planetside.

The players love it.

I have a very strange group.

Edit: I agree, HB can be a very heavy-handed adventure.

[Eleint]

I ran this (HB) a few years ago, only I disabled the "PCs cant really affect anything worthwhile" portions of the adventure. Needless to say they failed. Their new characters are dealing with the ramifications of what happened to the world as a result. A 10 year planetwide war resulting in a apocalyptic shadowrun setting where the Enemy mercilessly hunt the weak and the peoples of the world have lost hope. The corporate court has set itself up on the Lunar surface, salvaging what it can of Earth's resources and leaving untold millions of people to rot planetside. Edit: I agree, HB can be a very heavy-handed adventure.

This is interesting. Shadowrun mixed with post-apoc. Not sure I'd personally enjoy it, but an interesting way to take the game. How do people survie on the moon? Did you tweak the whole Mana Void thing in space, or what?

[Stahlseele]

The only people with problems in Space are magically active.
Everybody else only has to deal with no gravity, no space, no air, no water, no nothing.
If they can make supply runs down to earth to get what they need, it works.
That would mean that they need secured parts in the world down below. so there are safe havens probably.
Meaning there's people down there, living in . . big urban monstrosities. Hive Cities, Sprawls, Megaplexes, call them what you want.
And that means there's the same fucked up society there is in most parts of Shadowrun still. Only that going out of the city is like in Judge Dredd.
Or Fallout after leaving the Vault. Maybe a bit Mad Maxx Style too. But with Magics! Imagine The Sox or Bug City or the Shedim Plague, only world wide.

[Vermithrax]

This is interesting. Shadowrun mixed with post-apoc. Not sure I'd personally enjoy it, but an interesting way to take the game. How do people survie on the moon? Did you tweak the whole Mana Void thing in space, or what?

Nope, the mana void is still valid. People can survive on the moon. They even have colonies there in canon SR. Just gotta watch that your population doesnt overwhelm your colonies ability to produce essentials. Plus, If someone can get planetside and stock up on Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Etc... without dying, then that person can potentialy make a lot of Nuyen selling it. Maybe even rent a place on board a station or Lunar colony.
And before the question is asked, the answer is "yes mages are pretty much boned up there". Not that I particularly hate on mages. But thats how it works.
Im thinking though, about making a new type of foci based on Power Foci to give something for mages to draw mana from. Havn't work out all the details yet.

The whole campaign is a sort of "in development" kinda thing. We have had to gloss over a few details but everyone is liking it.

[Vermithrax]

The only people with problems in Space are magically active.
Everybody else only has to deal with no gravity, no space, no air, no water, no nothing.
If they can make supply runs down to earth to get what they need, it works.
That would mean that they need secured parts in the world down below. so there are safe havens probably.
Meaning there's people down there, living in . . big urban monstrosities. Hive Cities, Sprawls, Megaplexes, call them what you want.
And that means there's the same fucked up society there is in most parts of Shadowrun still. Only that going out of the city is like in Judge Dredd.
Or Fallout after leaving the Vault. Maybe a bit Mad Maxx Style too. But with Magics! Imagine The Sox or Bug City or the Shedim Plague, only world wide.

Supply runs, Corporate enclaves, you name it. Only now you have a whole bunch of really nasty things right outside your door ready to eat you. Who knows, maybe a few of those nasty things have slipped past the walls, barriers, wards and are hunting inside in secret.

[Eleint]

Nope, the mana void is still valid. People can survive on the moon. They even have colonies there in canon SR. Just gotta watch that your population doesnt overwhelm your colonies ability to produce essentials. Plus, If someone can get planetside and stock up on Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Etc... without dying, then that person can potentialy make a lot of Nuyen selling it. Maybe even rent a place on board a station or Lunar colony. And before the question is asked, the answer is "yes mages are pretty much boned up there". Not that I particularly hate on mages. But thats how it works. Im thinking though, about making a new type of foci based on Power Foci to give something for mages to draw mana from. Havn't work out all the details yet.

Cool! Not my thing (if I'm going to do Shadowrun, I want magic as a marked setting element -- otherwise I'll do something like Transhuman Space or such) but cool. Sounds like an interesting premise. How advanced is the space travel involved?

[Stahlseele]

Not much. In SR, Space-Travel is more or less what we have today. Only difference are Sub-Orbital PLANES that regularly reach Orbit in their Ballistic flight-path to the target airport. So getting to and fro orbit would be easy peasy, but Space Travel in general between Earth and Mars is still seldom and takes lots of time.