Essence and Magic, Is this broken? Options

[Eleint]

I'm looking for constructive comments, not arguments about whether changing rules is good or bad or other stuff.

I don't really like how Magic loss due to Essence loss is done in the game. It seems to harken to SR3 with the fact you have to pay for it then lose it -- which is very different from how it works with races in SR4, where their penalties are off the max.

Would it be totally broken if I had Magic loss from Essence to be taken off the maximum and not the current? IE: Mage makes a character. Spends 30BP for Magic 4. Gets 1 point of Essence. He can raise his Magic to 5 ICly but not 6 without initiating.

You would see more mages with a bit of cyber, but I don't mind that. Would this totally break things, though? And how would you tweak things to make this work if it is abusive as so, but keeping the basic idea?

[Professeur]

I'm too tired for an in-depth answer, but yeah, I think it would further tip the balance in favor of mages. First of all most mages only get up to Magic 5, so most of them would go for the free point of Essence's worth of 'ware. It would also free a not-negligible amount of BPs for them if they go even further on the 'ware path. Basically I think the rules are fine like they are now. Magic has the power to make or break a game, races don't - even the supposedly broken ones like Orks. A few extra Strength or Body points don't make much difference compared to one or two free magic points I think.

[Kerenshara]

There is ONE way, but it would require the support of your GM and some sacrifices:

Buy the character as "Latent Awakening" then save enough points to buy a low level of Magical skill and Magic stats/spells. Work it out with your GM as to story and "start" the character with fewer BP, converting the unspent BP to Karma and buy it up that way after "start". I don't know that it will actually save you any points in the end, but it makes for interesting back-story and the GM gets to have YOU limit your starting magic voluntarily to reflect not having years of study behind you. Also, consider what tradition you use when you do that: I built one custom to reflect my incomplete / nonexistent training as I figured out the Awakened world for myself the hard way ala-2014.

But that's not RAW and requires a complaiant GM.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I have to say, Keren, that is really clever. In fact, depending on how you look at it, it might not even require DM permission to "save up" if you use karmagen.

[Kerenshara]

I have to say, Keren, that is really clever. In fact, depending on how you look at it, it might not even require DM permission to "save up" if you use karmagen.

*wink*

We do.

[Screaming Eagle]

If you are inclined to allow this sort of docking off the max w.o reducing the actualy magic rating (and I'm in no way suggesting you do unless you know this is not a min/maxing hoser looking to cram in 2 more IP on the character and a weapon mount for there earth elemental) I would also suggest you go back to 3rd and look at the rules for taking a Geas to offset magic loss: allow the PC to lower their max without dropping the stat and give them a Geas: no bonus points, they are just offseting the damage they have done to themselves with warez, drugs or making out with vampires. It's a bit closer to balancing Pro/ Con wise and makes them dance a magic dance. *Does a little dance*

[Da9iel]

Hey!! Medicine Man!! Oh, wait, never mind. You looked like someone I knew.

[Kingboy]

I would also suggest you go back to 3rd and look at the rules for taking a Geas to offset magic loss: allow the PC to lower their max without dropping the stat and give them a Geas: no bonus points, they are just offseting the damage they have done to themselves with warez, drugs or making out with vampires.

Hmm, I kinda like this actually. Maybe you'd see characters with something other than Talisman Geas then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Screaming Eagle]

The only problem you used to run into was magic 6, essence 1 crazies kitted to the nines with "insert 5 points of Essence in beta, delta and bio warez here". "Oh no, magic rating goes to heck is I don't do a pile of stuff" - arm fires HE mini rockets in short burst "Whatever shall I do" - turns invisable, resists joke like drain, continues firing rockets, bone lasing and armor shrugs off damage that does hit his inviable butt. Previously, while folowing Geasa, he had bound a few force 6 fire elementals - cue ride of the Valkries. Cue laughing histarically if your GM allowed this or if you are the GM and its your players on the receiving end.

Since this would still be lowering the max I'm not sure if this problem would come up anymore (or at least not to this extent).

[Larme]

I'm looking for constructive comments, not arguments about whether changing rules is good or bad or other stuff.

I don't really like how Magic loss due to Essence loss is done in the game. It seems to harken to SR3 with the fact you have to pay for it then lose it -- which is very different from how it works with races in SR4, where their penalties are off the max.

Would it be totally broken if I had Magic loss from Essence to be taken off the maximum and not the current? IE: Mage makes a character. Spends 30BP for Magic 4. Gets 1 point of Essence. He can raise his Magic to 5 ICly but not 6 without initiating.

You would see more mages with a bit of cyber, but I don't mind that. Would this totally break things, though? And how would you tweak things to make this work if it is abusive as so, but keeping the basic idea?

My verdict: broken. Mages are already pretty cool, they don't need a boost. Cyber can be insanely beneficial to them -- it removes vision penalties, raises drain attributes, soaks up drain and allow them to ignore it... Allowing them to have cyber without impacting their magic is a big deal.

The way to tweak things to make it balanced would be to remove the rule that all Awakened characters start with a natural max of 6 magic. Instead, have them start with a natural max 1. Every point they buy in Magic also raises the natural max by 1. That doesn't really change anything though, not in any significant way. I suppose you could split up the cost of raising magic, like it's 5 points to raise the max by 1, and 5 points to raise the stat itself. But no matter how you slice it, it's just making mages more powerful without any corresponding downside. If mages are currently balanced, your idea unbalances them. If they're broken, as some claim, then it just makes things worse. Almost nobody would say that mages suck and need this kind of boost, at least not anybody who knows how to twink out a mage build.

[Cheops]

I also thought that there was no "max" Magic attribute in SR4. Could be fuzy memories but I seem to recall that you max goes up as you get Initiate Grades. Probably not an issue in most games but could be in a long running campaign.

[Screaming Eagle]

I also thought that there was no "max" Magic attribute in SR4. Could be fuzy memories but I seem to recall that you max goes up as you get Initiate Grades. Probably not an issue in most games but could be in a long running campaign.

Initiation can increase your max rating, but it still has a cap at any given time and initialtion gets rather costly (in karma and weird-ass spirit journys) over time. These Geasa would go under the "you can never get rid of them" catagory. Most people are going to avoid these. Also: no way in hell would I allow this at Character generation. No "finding a way to take 65 points in flaws for more magic powas" at my table.

Larme: I agree, it's somewhere between slightly and moderatly "broken" for balance. But I'd allow it because I'm the not a large fan of strict game balance (it's too subjective) and probably define broken in a different way. And making people want to take more flaws or face burnout is making me chuckle.
<jk> Also making out with vampires is what all the Kool Kids are doing. Do you really want to penalise the Kool Kids? They have ice cream!</jk>

I seriously see this more as an option in place for the unlucky mage or adept who gets feed on by a Vampire or gets medically nessasary implants (no son my syntacardium wasn't because I wanted the extra *umph*, let me tell you about this rather large chest scar and the limits of magical healing, thank the gods for platinum Docwagon contracts, thank the gentle gods). Yes once I make it avalaible others will use it, but I still like it to be there.

[Larme]

Nevermind, Screaming Eagle ninja'd what I was going to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Jaid]

I also thought that there was no "max" Magic attribute in SR4. Could be fuzy memories but I seem to recall that you max goes up as you get Initiate Grades. Probably not an issue in most games but could be in a long running campaign.

that is mostly true, the exception being for those who have essence lower than one and those who have a magic attribute but no way of initiating (many forms of paracritters without the adept/mystic adept/magician qualities, people with magical knacks, etc).

though of course, they still have a max, but as you said, that max can be increased relatively easily, and they get other benefits to go with it as well.