Astral Space, Rules clarification Options

[The Jake]

Hi all

With all the changes to astral space over the years, by 4E we're so far from 1E that the rules almost don't even bear a resemblance to the original.

I'm getting questions from one of my players over what he can/can't do in the astral and I'm having a hard time answering them all because quite frankly, it is just not well documented.

Can an astrally projecting magician manifest?

It is known spirits can manifest. Can a magician appear? Even if he can't "manifest" per se - doesn't his presence leave some sort of tell-tale signatures in the real world? In first ed, you could cast spells but they did physical drain. Now, my reading is that you can cast spells, they do drain as per normal, however you can only target creates with spells on the same plane as you (I'm simplifying here).

I guess the real question here is "to what extent can an astrally projecting magician interact with the real world?"

I'm sure I got more, but that will do for the moment.

- J.

[Draco18s]

You can manifest, yes. I don't know where the rules for that are, but you can't cast RW spells while manifested.

[Ancient History]

Can an astrally projecting magician manifest?

Yes. An astrally projecting magician can manifest on the physical plane - they appear there as an apparition, visible to metahumans but intangible and unable to touch anything. Though they can communicate visually and audibly with others, this is a psychic effect and cannot be recorded. Manifest characters are still subject to spells and attacks from the astral still affect the manifest magician. Mana barriers on the physical impede the movement of a manifest magician.

Now, my reading is that you can cast spells, they do drain as per normal, however you can only target creates with spells on the same plane as you (I'm simplifying here).

Basically correct. Even while manifest, the magician is effectively on the astral and so cannot cast Physical spells.

[Andinel]

Just as a clarification, I can't find the rules on Drain in Astral space. Is Drain handled normally, or is all Drain Physical? So far my group has had that all Drain in the Astral Plane is Physical damage, but rereading the rules I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[DireRadiant]

Drain is physical only if you do Force > Magic

[Dr. Dodge]

Just as a clarification, I can't find the rules on Drain in Astral space. Is Drain handled normally, or is all Drain Physical? So far my group has had that all Drain in the Astral Plane is Physical damage, but rereading the rules I can't seem to find it anywhere.

i believe thats an old rule that hasnt carried over. Drain follows the same rules on the astral as it does on the physical.

[Dr. Dodge]

I guess the real question here is "to what extent can an astrally projecting magician interact with the real world?"

also keep in mind that while manifesting on the physical, the magician is still using their astral senses, so they cant read signs and such that are on the physical plane.

[Giant Catfish]

Interaction with the physical is very limited. In essence, manifesting is no better than just making a phone call... Except that a mage is required to do a trace (read a signature, rather) instead of a hacker.

Useful for handing one way communications to someone that is only being monitored by technology.

The intent of the rules is fairly clear really... You can go get a general look around, fight with any dual natured stuff... But you can't do anything to anything unless it can fight back.

You can have a summoned spirit materialize and do some damage/cause some fuss, which works very well if there is a means of identifying a target that does not involve reading (right out astrally). Sort of an indoors analogue to paratroopers.

[The Jake]

Yes. An astrally projecting magician can manifest on the physical plane - they appear there as an apparition, visible to metahumans but intangible and unable to touch anything. Though they can communicate visually and audibly with others, this is a psychic effect and cannot be recorded. Manifest characters are still subject to spells and attacks from the astral still affect the manifest magician. Mana barriers on the physical impede the movement of a manifest magician.


Basically correct. Even while manifest, the magician is effectively on the astral and so cannot cast Physical spells.

Does this mean a magician can cast mana spells only while projecting?

Here is the key question that baffles me -
Also if he can cast mana spells, do you mean he can cast mana spells ONLY at astral targets, or physical targets only in the physical world only when manifesting (thereby excluding astral targets while manifest) - or can he cast mana spells at targets in both planes regardless of whether he is manifest or not? I presume manifestation is basically the magician simply making his appearance known rather than for any specific functional purpose.

Sorry if I sound obtuse or stupid for asking.

- J.

[EnlitenedDespot]

I'm pretty sure that he can't cast anything at any targets in the real world (unless they're astrally perceiving him, in which case he can still only do mana spells?).

Really, the manifesting/conjuring thing is the only way to go, or ritual casting (but who really wants to bother with that nonsense? I would also be really unhappy if I did happen to have like 3 other PC buddies capable of doing the ritual with me, because it would leave me severely wondering where my trusty street sam/hacker/rigger etc. are since my friends all decided to play a very similar role...).

[Dragnar]

Manifesting doesn't change his choice of targets in the least. A projecting mage is on the astral plane and thus can only affects targets that are on the astral plane as well. Manifesting doesn't change that.
Wholly astral entities can "see" specific things on the physical plane, because there's a certain "spillover", thanks to the planes being so "close" (so they can see purely mundane people, although they can't affect them). Manifesting is just a kind of "spill back", where purely physical being can now see a wholly astral being (ie: the mage), but the planes are still just as seperated as they where before.

[Ancient History]

Does this mean a magician can cast mana spells only while projecting?

Yes, because the only valid targets are astral forms.

Here is the key question that baffles me -
Also if he can cast mana spells, do you mean he can cast mana spells ONLY at astral targets, or physical targets only in the physical world only when manifesting (thereby excluding astral targets while manifest) - or can he cast mana spells at targets in both planes regardless of whether he is manifest or not? I presume manifestation is basically the magician simply making his appearance known rather than for any specific functional purpose.

An astrally projecting magician that manifests is not entering the physical world - no eyes to see, no ears to hear; it's just a psychic presence to allow the magician to communicate with people on the physical plane. They are still in the Astral, and aware of the astral world around them; they have no physical senses and so no link to any physical targets.

Which is a long way to say that no, you can't target people or things on the physical plane with Mana spells while manifest. You're restricted to targets on your own plane, in this case the astral. (But hey, nobody on the physical can hit you with a spell either. Isn't that nice?)

[Mikado]

Which is a long way to say that no, you can't target people or things on the physical plane with Mana spells while manifest. You're restricted to targets on your own plane, in this case the astral. (But hey, nobody on the physical can hit you with a spell either. Isn't that nice?)

Unless they are perceiving or Dual Natured. Perceiving or Dual Natured creatures or metahumans can cast on the astral plane from their meat forms.

*That’s not a bash to you AH; I just wanted to make sure it was clear to the person asking about it.

[Dragnar]

But that's because they aren't purely on the physical, but exist in both planes simultaneously. So they naturally can affect astral beings, because they are astral beings themselves.