Adept vs. Astral Enemies, How useful is Astral Perception? Options

[EnlitenedDespot]

Even though it's somewhat expensive and inefficient, I was wondering what I should do to be ready for bothering to take Astral Perception, or possibly how needed this power is at all.

As of this point, I'm most likely going to be running a two-man group (don't know if we'll have NPC partners for runs or not), and it sounds like the other guy is going to be a hacker. That being said, I'm considering doing an Adept (will most likely have good but not spectacular combat ability, and I'm leaning towards unarmed/pistols as my two avenues of attack).

My primary concern for taking Astral Perception (other than the options of gathering recon/intelligence from analyzing auras) is being able to be prepared for or defend against astral concerns. On that note, if I didn't take the power, what am I leaving myself exposed to? If I do take the power, what am I going to be stuck with wanting to take to make that power worthwhile?

I've read that astral perceiving entities have to utilize willpower+astral combat (I plan on having 4 willpower, but did not yet intend on having astral combat 4), and even then I don't know how I'd be fighting the damn thing anyway (just with my raw charisma for damage code?). Is a weapon focus here going to be necessary or useful.

I realize that if a spirit actually manifested physically, I'd have a chance with an investment in Killing Hands (planning on having Unarmed Combat 4, Agi 3-4, and a +2 Spec. along with some Krav Maga qualities) of actually killing the thing; however, if something's sitting in the astral just following me around all day I'd rather be able to look across the other side and nix it, especially if I don't have a mage or shaman running with me (hacker is my tech-problem solution, and if we had a third guy I would be looking for a street sham meat shield most likely anyhow).

[Stahlseele]

Astral perception/Duality was a FLAW for which you got points in SR3.
Make of that what you will.
Adepts are hindered by the fact that, unless you resort to rules lawyering and creative thinkering, you have an effective reach of a maximum of your magical attribute to hurt astral entities with.
So if you look into the astral and there's a spirit or mage hovering 10m above you, good luck hitting/hurting him up there, while he can just sling mana spells down at you or use mana based spirit powers.
Weapon-Focus is a matter of style. But with killing hands, improved ability close combat and critical strike, you can basically make your whole body into a weapon focus . .

[DireRadiant]

For the scenario you describe you don't really want Astral Perception.

Without Astral Perception a spirit must Manifest to affect you, when it is manifest, you can see it coming, and can react to it. It will be constrained by it's materialized attributes which are usually less then it's astral ones.

If you have Astral Perception, while Astrally Perceiving you are Dual natured and can be affected by Astral entities.

Note that Manifest and astral Spirits can both quite easily be out of reach.

[Screaming Eagle]

With an astral perseption/ Spirit killer build it is usually more point effecient to take a weapon focus and use your power points for things you are going to NEED - astral beings have 3 IP astral, if you plan on fighting them there you are going to need to keep up, either with wares' enhancement (costing you magic) or adept powers (costing you magic). Magic resistance and mystic armor for those same spirits and mages who are going to be trying to nuke you astrally.

This being said every time I've done a spirit warrior I've gone with astral perception, killing hands, mystical armor, various magic resistance and magic detection powaz. Sticked to 2 IP and stayed on the physical unless I was tangling with something that could be dangerous while astral (possesion spirits come to mind). Why? My hands cannot be taken from me (ok they CAN, but by then I have other problems) and I always have then when I first wake - yes spirits will try to jump you at bad times for you if you go down this path, trust me, its a blast...

Perseption also lets you make wards (fairly sure) and see signatures (definitly). This is important. You just upgraded your home security and picked up a new sence. Being "Dual Natured" permanently is a bit of a flaw, but if you can switch it off its really quite good.

Dual natured (again fairly sure) - use you physical stats for damage and resistance. Willpower + Astral combat for the various opposed tests.

[Dakka Dakka]

Actually you do not want to have astral perception unless you have an astral ranged weapon. The only such weapon in SR are spells which you cannot have unless you go mystic adept. Then however you have to divide your Magic Attribute, which is not good for Spirit zapping spells. Even if you had spells, you are still slowed down by your meat body. So the astral spirit would probably have no problems going for cover.

I'm not sure about possessing spirits but all others cannot affect you or other mundanes. So it may be a good tactic to stay on this side of the fence.

@DireRadiant: most materialized attributes of spirits are larger than their astral ones (Force).
If you want to build a spirit killer adept, go for standard combat upgrades, use a weapon focus or killing hands. If you don't want to go near the spirits use SnS or heavy weapons. Gauss cannons are good spirit zappers.

I'd start like I'd start with all combat adepts. Initiative enhancement and combat sense as much as is possible. then maybe killing hands or weapon foci. Even if you don't play a gunbunny, don't forget some ranged weapon skill and stealth.

[EnlitenedDespot]

Well, hot damn, I really hadn't considered the range problem... it sounds to me that even if you built your character around dealing with astral threats as an adept, you could probably be completely owned by a fairly average mage/spirit with the right spells/ranged powers.

Even if you keep up with them in terms of IP, they can just move really quickly away and ruin your day. If I'm not mistaken, astral entities move pretty damn quickly.

Well then, with astral perception am I always dual-natured or does it only work when I turn it on?

Lastly, can't Mystic Adepts astrally project or no?

[Dakka Dakka]

Well then, with astral perception am I always dual-natured or does it only work when I turn it on?

Lastly, can't Mystic Adepts astrally project or no?

Yes to the first question and no to the second.

[TheOOB]

Astral perception is a great power. It lets you read auras and signatures, see astral phenomena(including non-manifested spirits), and interact with a new world. And the best part, it's only on when you want it on.

That said, it's not effective for killing spirits. It can be useful for dual natured beings, but a neonate mage with manabolt will kill even the best adept in astral combat. Thats why being permanently dual natured is a disadvantage, while being able to turn it on and off is an advantage.

[Critias]

Yes to the first question and no to the second.

In SR3 they had a metamagic that let Adepts astrally project for a short period of time, didn't they? Has that not hopped over into SR4 yet?

[Dakka Dakka]

Unless it is in the digital grimoire, no.

[TheOOB]

Off the top of my head, digital grimoire doesn't have metamagic. I would allow a metamagic or adept power that allowed ranged astral attacks.

[Dakka Dakka]

If the adept has killing handas and distance strike, I'd allow that on the astral as well. But the range is still way too short.

[TheOOB]

If the adept has killing handas and distance strike, I'd allow that on the astral as well. But the range is still way too short.

Yeah, an astral entity can move arbitrary fast (approx 40,075.16 km/hour), and can attack at line of sight, which lets say is 100+m in normal conditions. An adept would need an LOS attack.

[knasser]

Example non-critical glitch: posting is successful, but posting appears twice.

[knasser]

Astral Perception = Good, but a bit pricey.

Astral Perception for killing spirits as a pure adept = Bad.

If you buy it, buy it for the things it is useful for - spotting magical security, invisible enemies, people's emotional states, how much cyber they have installed and how powerful a magician they are.

For killing spirits, you want a weapon focus, there is almost no doubt about that. Or a Light Machine Gun. But if you want a stealth / infiltration / social role for your adept, the latter can be a bit of an issue.

As there are just two of you and the other player is a hacker and you want an adept, I would recommend emphasising stealth and infiltration as one of your roles. Speaking as a GM for a moment, when I have a mix of types in the party, I am obliged to provide challenges that cater to each of them. If there's a troll slaughter machine, then I can't just leave the run to a couple of ninja team members sneaking in and out leaving the troll sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. But if there are two non-confrontational types, then such a thief / assassin game is not only viable but interesting. And if that's where you go with it, then Astral Perception could be useful, just make sure your GM includes some magical opposition for you.

Astral Perception isn't rubbish, but I'd be unlikely to buy it for myself as there simply too much else I want. But your call. Not as a spirit killer though. WEAPON FOCUS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also make sure your GM uses the errata on weapon foci. The bonding costs have been reduced.

[Laesin]

One (VEEEERY EXPENSIVE) way around the range problem for weapon foci in SR3 was to take a harpoon or lasso. Not sure how that works in SR4 but I'll bet there are similar options.

[EnlitenedDespot]

This was actually kind of what I was looking at for the Adept:

Human (0): I'm pretty firm on this choice.

Attributes (280)
B A R--- S C I L W M Edge
4 3 3(5) 3 3 3 5 4 5 6

Active Skills (126)
Athletics Skill Group 3
Pistols 5
Perception 4
Unarmed Combat 5
Stealth Skill Group 3
Influence Skill Group 1

Qualitites (+25 BP)
Adept (5)
Krav Maga (5): Take Aim as a Free Action
SINner (+5): CalFree SIN
Ritual Geas (Meditation, +10)
Sensitive System (+15)
Allergy Gold? (+5)

Knowledge Skills (24 Free BP)
Philosophy 4
Psychology 4
Military Tactics 3
Firearms 1
Magic Theory 3
Something else 1?

Languages
English N, Spanish 3, Sperethiel 3, Japanese 2

19 BP on gear/lifestyle

Adept Powers:
Attribute Boost (Agi) 2
Combat Sense 2
Improved Reflexes 2
Killing Hands
Kinesics 1 ?

If I was going to take Astral Perception as an Adept Power, I'd probably slough off the Kinesics and 1 point from the Attribute Boost or something... I'd figure a way out to work it in. The big thing with Astral Perception would be knowledge gathering, also meaning I'd probably want something allocated to the Assensing skill. Astral Combat would seem a waste of a skill since whatever I was fighting could just run away or use a ranged attack. If something wanted to fight me in the astral, I would just stop perceiving and force a manifestation or at least keep myself safe. I am interested somewhat in the infiltration role and would like to not be socially incompetent, and with 19 BP on gear I will be able to have some neat toys.

The choice of Logic 5 is very much a roleplaying consideration. I would kind of like Astral Perception but damn is it expensive. I really enjoy the idea of having a high Edge (Edge 6 is pretty awesome).

Suggestions/criticisms are quite welcome. I was considering a Mage and realized that my joy of firearms and unarmed combat as well as a relatively practical character just doesn't work that well with a Mage. As an Adept, I'm just kind of a better guy with some enhancement to myself who in the end can still be somewhat of a 'regular' person.

I can't stand the idea of not having a character with at least 3 IP. 4 IP is a bit of a pain to get at char gen and I don't think it's worth it, but how a character with only 1 IP would ever compete in any actual combat situation beats me. In fact, if the opposition has only 1 IP and you also somehow lose initiative, you can just full defense for that IP and blow them up on the next couple.

I also could not stand the idea of jamming random crap in me (cyberware, or even bioware to some extent). It's just gross/wrong. So I guess that leaves me with pure normie/magician/adept.

Anyhow, the requirements of a magician (sorcery, counterspelling, summoning, binding at good levels, drain, expensive foci, and spells) are too stringent for me to create a 'well-rounded' character (like I believe the Adept is above). Also, Edge really makes my above build capable of doing awesome things, even with unimpressive social ability (better than nothing) and not too crazy stealth/infiltration.

So yeah, Adept vs. Magician paired with a hardcore hacker build is where I'm at. Suggestions particularly on negative quality choices (I am really gunning to get the full +35BP in negative qualities) would be awesome.

[kzt]

Take a mage with stunbolt instead if you want to kill spirits. Buy synaptic booster 2 instead of spending huge adept points on the same power. But then again, I see mages as the best hammer for the nail that is SR.

[EnlitenedDespot]

Yes, Mage + Stunbolt often means dead spirit. As far as the Synaptic Booster 2 is concerned, 160,000 nuyen is a lot to spend in chargen and dropping my Essence to 5 (and Magic to 4) is somewhat concerning to me. It does seem quite efficient, but I'll have to see how much I like it or not (I guess that would actually give me more Adept powers, 1.5 power points worth if I'm not mistaken).

[kzt]

For general combat, like what you have, an adept isn't really all that effective. You can use combat drugs to get the attribute boost, combat sense just isn't worth that much to me, kinestatics only makes sense if you are building a social adept. Killing hands is cool, but death touch/manabolt etc works fine and doesn't require the huge investment into unarmed combat skills.

That is probably just me, but I just don't see much reason for most adepts in 4th ed.

[EnlitenedDespot]

Concept.

^^That. And as much as I find mages highly effective, after investing into Sorc 5/Counterspelling 5/Summoning 4/Binding 4, you're not left with very much to do. You've spent your entire life so far studying nothing but magic, and your mundane ability is left a bit shriveled.

Yes, the Stealth spell helps counter not having infiltration. Yes, the imp invis or invisibilty spells help with that as well. But if you're sustaining them, you have a -2 to EVERYTHING you do for each spell you sustain. Yes, you can get sustaining foci. They have to be of the force appropriate for what you want to cast, which does mean they are a bit expensive experience and money-wise to obtain. On top of that, you could do damage to yourself for casting.

In the end, mages are pretty damn awesome. They have a lot of advantages, and if I were playing a high-end game or a game lasting a long time, a mage is going to probably shine greatly (high level foci of all kinds, meaning lots of exp and money spent, and a full-fleshing out of any desired spells/skills/metamagic), but to some people it just doesn't fit quite right.

Also, most mages I've built at chargen could still get perforated in a single IP by a good street sam if he lost initiative. Yes, I could theoretically one-shot the street sam too, but if it comes down to whoever wins initiative as to who gets melted, that leaves me feeling rather uncomfortable.

An adept is the closest thing to a regular guy who's spent his time perhaps meditating, reflecting philosophizing and acheived a certain level of enlightenment without ending up somewhat silly.

So yeah...

[Dakka Dakka]

Combat Sense is extremely valuable, if you go all the way (5 or 6 at CharGen). Upping your defensepool is generally better than increasing the soak pool. The former only has to deal with the attacker's hits whereas the latter has to reduce the weapon's base damage + net hits. Surprise is a problem for this tactic, but Combat Sense helps with that as well.

@EnlitenedDespot's Adept: I would reduce the AGI Boost to 1 and take STR or BOD Boost as well. With 6 opposed to 7 diece you only get a marginally smaller boost, but you can have two boosted attributes and the drain is even less.

[knasser]

You obviously have a reasonable idea what you're doing. Specific suggestions with your character I would make are to drop Edge a couple of points and use them to get other scores up. Agility by a point, perhaps, Body and Reaction also. Logic 5 is high. Don't forget that 3 is a person that is reasonably intelligent, 4 is already someone noticeably smart. 5 is close to genius so if it's for role-playing flavour, 4 might be adequate.

I would consider whether you want to get some Longarms skill just for situations where its useful. But possibly your teammate will have it covered with drones. Similarly, you might want to consider some weapons ability. If you drop that Edge from the maximum (I do hope you haven't been listening to Cain's Mr. Lucky stories), then you could get yourself Blades 4 with a specialisation if you want. Drop the Edge to 4 and you have the skills plus a bonded Force 3 Weapon Focus. I know it might not fit your original character focus, but Shadowrun is not a game where the devs felt it necessary to balance all options regardless of realism. Attacking someone with a knife or a sword is more effective than going unarmed and doubly so when its a weapon focus. Of course you'll still be killing people bare-handed because you wont be able to sneak foci everywhere, but its nice to have options. Check the recent "Useless Abilities" thread for an example of a skilled adept fighting an averageish troll. It's simply hard to damage some opponents bare-handed. Especially without Critical Strike.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope they help,

K.

[EnlitenedDespot]

Ahh, well every suggestion helps. I often find your guys' mastery of rules and having run more scenarios in this specific game than I help immensely.

That being said, I like the idea of two stat boosts as opposed to one. I was really not that interested in buying up large stat boost powers, as even the difference between Agi Boost 4 and 1 is increasing the attribute by 1.

I have maxed my expenditure on attributes. I could drop Logic to 4 and get Agi or Rea up to 4. I like Willpower and Body at 4 as is. Short of spending .75 power points on actually boosting an attribute (this just feels wasteful) permanently, I don't have tons of options.

Dropping Edge from 6 to 4 only gets me 20 BP. This could very well let me grab Blades 4 or MonoWhip 4 and snag a Weapon Focus (the availability limits them to a rating of 2 normally, no?), but my goal isn't to use my bare hands. I figure a souped up Ares Predator or something of the like would be my mainstay, with my hands just really a fall-back (or a materialized spirit killer).

I'll also look at how much I want to up combat sense. The synpatic boosters ain't too shabby if I have the money to spare (that's the main concern) considering that it frees up 1.5 power points (I lose one power point as my Magic drops from 5 to 4 and Essence from 6 to 5, but I have 4 Magic as opposed to 5 Magic with 2.5 power points taken up...).

Boosting Body feels really situational though, and boosting strength would only come up when/if I wanted to churn out unarmed damage.

I figure my best bet for a weapon focus would be a monofilament whip? I'm not that into the whip but its' armor piercing, reach, and huge damage really make it an attractive option. as well as its overall concealability...

[knasser]

Correct on the Edge. For some reason I thought you had the maximum amount (which would have cost more), but you're human so it's fine. I still recommend dropping it.

If you're going to go the route of Synaptic Boosters, you could give up the Agility Boost altogether and put every spare point you have into Improved Ability (Pistols). It doesn't look like a cost effective use of magic points - and genuinely, maybe it isn't - but +3 to that skill (and find some points for a specialisation in Semi-Automatics, while you're there), could be useful. You don't have Longarms or Automatics so you're going to suffer against well-armoured targets. And at some point, yes, you're going to meet "The Troll" at which point you'll want every hit you can get. Until you find a source of APDS, you've got a problem.

If I read your last post correctly, you're talking about having two Attribute Boost powers? In practical terms, it might not be so bad, but personally it would annoy me to have to take two Simple Actions to get myself up to speed at the start of every combat. As you're an infiltratory type, combats you do enter into will likely be the result of accident, rather than on your own terms, which means a pass getting your boosts or writing them off for the combat.