 Why so few people in the NANs?, And why haven't they been retaken? |
  |
 Jan 20 2004, 09:13 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500  |
Most NAN nations do not have enough people to have large cities.I mean the PPC has less people than modren day LA, by several million.
As a whole the NAN has about as many people as Mexico city, Califonia. So how does the PCC pose a threat too Aztlan,when Aztlan has more people in the area they took back from the US.After all is neither that far behind them in any area,and ahead in others. This is also baring in mind that Aztlan hasn't been over ran by CAS(Outside of Denver),witch hates Aztlan for good reasons.The CAS out numbering the whole of NAN, at something like 2.5 too 1. Hell, some crazy japanese guy rules over a population base in CFS that is millions larger than any NAN. |
 |
 
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 09:33 PM
Post
#2
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Short answer: cuz there ain't many Injuns to begin with. Long answer: Back in the days of the Pilgrims and the Spanish Conquistadors, Europeans found a new land far to the West of Europe known as The New World, later named the Americas. In this land, they found a bunch of natives. You know, Native Americans. The Europeans brought many wonderous items with them in their journeys of exploration, not the least of which was some of the most effective biological warfare plagues ever seen by humanity. A couple of centuries later, there weren't a whole lot of Native Americans left; something like 10% of those who were around when Columbus arrived in 1492. By 2000AD, there might be about 2 million Native Americans in North America. By 2020AD, the Native Americans had turned the tables on the Europeans and formed the Native American Nations. One of the founding concepts of NAN was to boot the Anglos back to Europe and have a purely Native American NAN. This didn't work so well in practice, because there STILL weren't a lot of Native Americans, so the NAN opened their borders to anyone vaguely suspected of having Native American blood, or at least anyone who rooted for the Native Americans in Western films. Even this wasn't really enough to get the population up very high because, let's face it, the Europeans were REALLY thorough about depopulating the Natives.
You don't have to be advanced to win a war. See: Vietnam, aka, David vs. Nuclear Goliath. Also, it doesn't take more than one or two PCC nukes to wreck Aztlan aggressions, and the PCC can do all sorts of other bad things to Aztlan - wreck Aztech's stocks, maybe enlist the Great Ghost Dance from other NANs, etc. Also - and you'll want to remember this one - sometimes the little nation (like the PCC) will loose to the bigger one, but not every other nation will approve of it. See: Kuwait, Iraq, Desert Storm. Invading the PCC might earn Aztlan a war with the Confederate States, UCAS, and rest of the NAN, all of whom would have an axe to grind with Aztlan.
Yeah, well, the whole Great Ghost Dance nonsense was blessed by artistic license. NAN is an integral part to the "feel" of Shadowrun, so it stays, nevermind logic. Battletech has that problem with the Clans, too. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 20 2004, 09:38 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
Couple of possibilities I can think of:
First there is probably Fear of Ghost Dance Mk II. After all, if they did it once, they could probably do it again and magic that can touch off volcanoes is nothing to sneer at, especially considering both CAS and Aztlan have some major tectonic activity under their major cities. Second, the NAN works as sort of a Neutral Zone between the major North American nations, and no one wants to violate that. It provides a buffer zone from potential hostilities. Third, fear of other retaliation from other nations. If one nation starts to invade, the others are going to see it as an obvious grab for power and take issue. And most of the nations in question, including the many of the NAN, have nukes, even if they do act a little wonky. Fourth, why bother? I do not have a map right in front of me, but if I remember correctly most of the NAN is not particularly valuable real estate to begin with. Sure there are some spots with a few natural resources, but they are not worth the risk of disrupting the balance of power to gain them by military force when economic control works so much better. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 09:50 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
What are you talking about?
Los Angeles has a population of ~3.7 million people. (Source) The PCC has a population of ~12.2 million (SoNA, pg 86). Saito does *not* control anything close to the entirety of the California Free State... judging from the map in SoNA, he controls about 1/4 of the country. Granted, his little Protectorate does house a few major cities, but considering the number of people who fled the area during and shortly after the takeover, Its really not as ludicrous as you are trying to make it seem. You seem to think that the number of people that live in a country is in some way directly related to the military might of that country. I hate to break it to you, but India's military is not as strong as the United States military, despite having a population four times as large. Finally, Aztlan can not declare war on any single nation in North America without functionally declaring war on every nation in North America. The CAS and the UCAS would *not* stand by and let Aztlan acquire more territory, as both nations already see them as a threat. Theres also that whole treaty thing. Since Aztlan seems to have quite a bit of trouble dealing with their own bands of guerilla fighters (the Yucatan War), I don't think they are prepared to take on all of North America. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 10:12 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Subvert them from within: take a look at the Algonkian-Manitou Situation.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 10:36 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
You're asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Why hasn't anyone conquered NAN?", it's, "Why didn't the US just crush their pathetic little uprising to begin with?"
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 20 2004, 10:53 PM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
I when I said LA city,I meant LA county.My mistake,as wile LA city is only ~3.7 million people,LA county is way more.Now,as for my mistake the cities in LA county are so tightly bunched together that it may as well be one city. LA county is ~9,6 million Source Saito controls one of the five largest cities/counties in the "US". And San fran ain't small either. India also is poor, CAS,Aztlan,UCAS,Quebec aren't.One thing you should remember is militaries are largely based on how much a nation can pay.You know why India has so many movies made?It is because not everyone in India has power.People in India don't have enough money for TV's and even if they had them, large part of the country wouldn't have power for them.So people make movies, movies come out everyday, in the same way people have TV shows.India lack the infrsturcture to take care of civil engineering problems, what the hell kind of army do you think they could feild? SO an wealthily nation like CAS, even if each person makes less money than the PPC, has the resource to feild an army larger than the NAN.Fallowing human history nations feild armies as large they can,based on the threats of war.CAS has three hostile borders.I think they would have as large as an armed force per-person as the US has now.Witch would be ~3,000,000.This number may be a bit low as CAS has real hostile nations near by.I wouldn't be shocked if the number was ~1,000,000. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 11:00 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Four words: The Great Ghost Dance. Its kinda hard to crush a rebellion when tornadoes spring into existance to wipe out your air strike, spirits and armor-spell-enhanced native americans impervious to small arms fire engage your infantry, when those same spirits use their accident power on your tanks, and when, most importantly, you dont have a fragging clue whats going on because you don't believe in magic. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 20 2004, 11:58 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Hmm... I've been trying to find solid figures about the current size of the US military, but I'm having trouble doing so. Anyone out there know where such information can be found?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:07 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Curious: The Great Ghost Dance happened because the NAN had magic and the US didn't. What is stopping the UCAS or CAS from invading if the strategic magic balance is now blanced?
The NAN may have the GGD but now UCAS and CAS and Aztlan have mages/shamans of their own and those are no pushovers either. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:20 AM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-April 03 From: My own personal purgatory Member No.: 4,453 |
The fact that they're basically peaceful nations? It's been 45 years since the treaty was signed, after all. Why go re-opening old wounds? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:22 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Toruri, brings up a good point.But her forgets that UCAS has only about 4.8 magically active people per magically active NANer.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:24 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Wouldn't that mean that the UCAS has more Awakened than NAN?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:24 AM
Post
#14
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Why did we take that land from the natives in the first place?Greed, baby.Pure,lovely greed.... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:28 AM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Yes, but that was the point.The NAN have nothing on either the CAS or the UCAS anymore.They lack,the man power, and their mojo is not so big of a deadl anymore. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:34 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So if the UCAS has more Awakened and troops... what is stopping them from invading?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:42 AM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Foolish American belief in not slaughtering people who haven't messed with you in a generation. A few CAS politicians campaigned on retaking some of the lost land, but that was mostly in reference to Aztlan. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:46 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the strategic balance isn't balanced at all. the GGD was blood magic on a mass scale--besides Aztlan, no other nation has shown a willingness to engage in blood magic at that level, and Aztlan is too busy fighting Amazonia to take on a second front. most nations only use magic tactically; mage for mage, either of the American nations could take the NAN, but the NAN has a level of organization and ritual that's light-years ahead of anything the CAS or UCAS could put together.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:51 AM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Why doesnt the United States invade Canada or Mexico or Cuba now? We could certainly win any of those wars...
Oh yeah... just because you can beat someone rather soundly in a war is not sufficient justification to actually do it. The UCAS, the CAS, and the NAN are all currently allies, and rely rather heavily on each other for trade and such. Plus, both the UCAS and the CAS have enough problems of their own to not want to risk a more or less pointless war. There are, however, those in the UCAS who would like to see a reclamation of all of the territory in the former United States (see Threats 2 for more info). Fortunately, they aren't currently in charge of the country. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 12:55 AM
Post
#20
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
That'll last. See my last comments. It shouldn't have taken the USA that long to wise up to magic. First, the degree of cohesivity in the SAIM rebels was ludicrous. It wouldn't have taken much to lure some shamans over to the government side. It also wouldn't have taken much to capture some shamans - it doesn't take people well informed of magic to capture shamans, not when they're very rare like in the early years of the 6th World, and not when their body guards are lightly armed irregulars. All you need is a one-page set of guidelines for the Native Americans to basically loose their magical edge, and you only need one captured shaman to deliver that info. A few tips like "Spells are mostly line of sight" would make a huge difference. Second, the Native Americans weren't the only ones to develop magic early; they just demonstrated a knack for it and "guidance from the spirits." An edge, not inconquerable. Third, you don't need air strikes to crush a rebellion in the middle of a hostile population that outnumbers the rebels at least 150:1.
Heh. Not all the SAIM bands had spell-tossers. Particularly right at the beginning of the 6th World, they were rarer than honest politicians. So the bands that had them: good for them. The others should've been screwed 6 ways from Sunday. What were the Natives going to do in the long run when they had the gov't troops on the run? If the Anglos refused to leave cities, Native Americans had very few options. They could cut off water supplies to squeeze the Anglos - nice, kill a few million people of thirst (with associated loss of the moral high ground and backing - what a PR disaster strangling a city would be). They could cut off food supplies - nice, kill a few million people of hunger. They could try to storm a city - stupid, urban assaults by small groups of irregular troops.
Yeah, see, that's one of those implausibilities. That ignorance shouldn't have lasted more than a year or two. *The stupidity of that whole "final solution" thing by the US goverment was only artistic license. *The stupidity of the government troops trying to fight the Native Americans could only be artistic license. *The inability of the government to grapple with magic could only be artistic license. *The ability of the Native Americans to achieve so much with so little is only artistic license. They simply lacked the manpower to occupy and hold the land they did. The Native Americans should never have been given a reason to rebel like the re-education camps; if they were, they should've lost. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 21 2004, 01:04 AM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ritual magic, cray. "haven't seen joe jumping rabbit in a few days. let's check on him. oh, he's talking to the feds? manabolt!"
i may be misremembering, but the SAIM uprising was coordinated, at least in part, by some half-horror/half-IE guy named, as i recall, Thais (actually... unless i'm mistaken, he's a good candidate for Daniel Howling Coyote). this dude has been around for a while--he tried the same thing back in the 1800s--and, unlike the IEs we see running the TT (can't speak for the TNO guys), he seems to have a handle on the whole concept of long-term strategies. this would go far in explaining SAIM's embarassingly successful campaign. i'd just like to point out that the aircav unit mentioned as being destroyed by tornadoes is--mine! go cav! |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 01:20 AM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
If I was taking a samurai into battle, I wouldn't take the Tom Cruise kind. I would take the Ken Watanabe samurai. What do I mean? I wouldn't *think* about invading the NAN, even if I did have shamans at my beck and call. It's a scary thought... going up against a nation of people that have some of the best shamans on the planet residing within its borders. Regardless of how good I thought me and my crackshot team of stolen shammies might be, there's no competing for the die-hards that are fighting for earth, not nuyen.
The sourcebooks have detailed it out enough so there's enough of a plausible reason why this wouldn't happen too. There's no need to invade grasslands and second-tier cities. Not worth the risk. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 01:33 AM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, i'll say this: "grasslands" equals "breadbasket". controlling its own food supply is a good thing, for a nation.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2004, 01:55 AM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
Waitaminute.... you'd take Long Duk Dong over Tom Cruise??? ...oops... that was Gedde Watanabe... nevermind... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2004, 02:22 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Like LA, Las Vagas,Denver,San fransico,San Jose.Portland,Santa fe,Salt Lake City... Then add minor cities |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 20th April 2024 - 05:27 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.