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 Why so few people in the NANs?, And why haven't they been retaken? |
 Jan 21 2004, 02:28 AM
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#26
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
L.A. only recently fell into Native hands. Denver is divided into sections, and is not wholely in Native hands. San Francisco has never belonged to the Natives in Shadowrun. Salt Lake City has a special arrangement whereby most, if not all of it belongs to the Mormons. Portland is in Tir Tairngire, which IIRC succceeded from the NAN a while ago. |
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Jan 21 2004, 02:40 AM
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#27
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Whilst they might have more mages, do they know how to pull off something akin to the Great Ghost Dance? The only reason the natives did was that Thais- Aina the IE's son- had told them previously. The blood mage faction of Aztechnology knows how to do magic on that scale, but no-one likes them so the Native Americans cancel out the magic and everyone else would probably chip in militarily to slauhter them. |
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Jan 21 2004, 03:53 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
San Francisco wouldn't be an easier goal if the the NAN wasn't in the way, and we know how much UCAS likes Saito....And the UCAS just is buddy-buddy with the elves... But the only logical reason UCAS wouldn't want any major CFS city is that the NAN would be in the middle of them.Seeing as those CFS could be worth the the grass lands in the middle of the cities.... |
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Jan 21 2004, 03:55 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
Um, isn't the VP of the UCAS also an IE.Isn't she also the head of the DF,witch is a will of Big d.Didn't Big D,want to remake the US of f***ing A? |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:33 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Um, no! Daviar is not in any way described as an IE, or even an elf for that matter. |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:36 AM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Considering the UCAS let California go without a fight, I don't see their number 1 priority being getting it back. Other than that, I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:33 AM
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#32
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Me neither. Care to clarify some? Preferably without the gratuitous swearing.
And on Daviar, I'm fairly sure that she's an elf. One of the books mentions it- something about representatives from Tir Tairngire throwing a hissy fit saying they wouldn't come if she was there, and someone chiming in about how they figured they'd of liked an Elf as VP. |
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Jan 21 2004, 05:56 AM
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#33
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
She may well be. My mind is in pause-mode at the moment, and I can't recall for sure.
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Jan 21 2004, 06:11 AM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
probably. after all, elves are teh l33testt!!!!!!!@!1211212!!!
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Jan 21 2004, 06:20 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
My point is this the only semi valid reason the UCAS let the CFS go,is because they had other things to deal with,mainly the idea that the south would go to war,and it was hard to maintain any supplies, too or from there.The NAN being in the way and all. Now the NAN aren't the only people with powerful mojo,as at least one IE is working with the DF.Big D,had plans of reforming the US,and funny how the Leader of the UCAS is said to be in the "draco party",also the largest UCAS company has military assists in CFS.THe point,being?UCAS has means and motives to invading the NAN.The NAN,doesn't have the man,or magical power to stop them. As for the elves in power in the UCAS,look at Do6W. "Many in DeeCee Believe that Daviar will be both the first woman and the first elf to become president..." Aina Dupree is at least a spike baby. Frank Hardy is of unknow age. Grace Freil could maybe a free-spirit. Most of the shamans that knew the GGD died, in the casting,or died in the many years after it,and until now. So,the NAN has lost most of their best shamans, and the UCAS gains many friends in high places. And I left out the IE's who like UCAS, until somone brought in the IE thingie the NAN had. |
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Jan 21 2004, 06:34 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 84 Joined: 15-April 03 From: My own personal purgatory Member No.: 4,453 |
p. 26, SR3:
"2039: The great dragon Dunkelzahn's second interpreter resigns and is replaced by Nadja Daviar, an Eastern European elf with no personal history on file. (And I mean nothing. Lots of us have been looking.)" :) |
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Jan 21 2004, 06:46 AM
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#37
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, because that really affected their ownership of Seattle. Seriously, California threatened to leave, the UCAS said "ok, bye", and that was that.
What IE is this? As for Ares having interests in CFS, well, they are a AAA multinational company. What they are not is a puppet of the UCAS. As to your assertation that the NAN hasn't got the mojo to stop the UCAS, I think that's just not true. But then again, it's pretty much speculation on both of our parts, because there are no UCAS plans to actually invade the NAN as of yet.
And she probably will be. So?
Aina is an IE who is the mother to a half-Horror. She is not in the UCAS' pocket, but she does presently sit on the board of the Dunky Institute, along with a couple of other IEs.
Considering that another version of the GGD was performed in the 2050s, it's not likely that the knowledge of this ritual is as lost as you think.
Speculation!
As I previously asked....these are? |
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Jan 21 2004, 06:46 AM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
playing games, the GGD is a tradition--a tradition that the shaman who performed it would be stupid to have not passed on.
as far as big mojo is concerned, there is nothing to indicate that either the UCAS or the CAS are working on anything matching the GGD in terms of power. nor in the TT, to be honest, and it's not like they're shorthanded in the IE department. nor is there any indication that the DF is working on anything like that. IE != powerful ritual magic. and, honestly? Ares is not a "UCAS company". that's the whole point of extraterritoriality. yeah, they tend to play up the American Corporation jazz inside the UCAS--but do you really think Ares' CAS subsidiaries whistle the same tune? i really don't see what CFS has to offer the UCAS, right now. half of their country is overrun by some foreign power or another, and there's a league of nations in the way that can field a fairly passable military. you have to remember, the UCAS is not the US, and that definitely applies to the military: the UCAS is down to something like 25% of its former size, it's lost a huge part of its revenue (the breadbasket areas now owned by the NAN), and it's suffered a number of serious blows in the past sixty years. |
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Jan 21 2004, 07:27 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
ironically, the lose said land would make them more aggressive.The US doesn't need to retake,or gain anymore land.It has most everything it needs.The UCAS on the other hand has been wounded,and done so in away that makes anything that happened to the US in the real world look small.In the next 60 years North America loses roughly 80 million people.How many were killed in the ghost dance?The NAN war?
UCAS has so much to gain from retaking the NAN land,and the NAN has too small of a population base.We lost vietnam, because they were willing lose 10 men for every one of us they killed.We lost because we we fighting a limited war,with an enemy that drew no lines.Every major battle in that war was won by the US,barring the one at home. i really don't see what CFS has to offer the UCAS, right now. half of their country is overrun by some foreign power or another, and there's a league of nations in the way that can field a fairly passable military. you have to remember, the UCAS is not the US, and that definitely applies to the military: the UCAS is down to something like 25% of its former size, it's lost a huge part of its revenue (the breadbasket areas now owned by the NAN), and it's suffered a number of serious blows in the past sixty years. And having 40% of the land they used to have,is not reason enough?Keeping in mind that that is some the most worth wile land that they lost. |
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Jan 21 2004, 08:37 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 26-February 02 From: United Kingdom Member No.: 195 |
Countries tend not to invade others simply on a whim. Even if there is an economic advantage in doing so and the opposition doesn't stand a chance of even slowing them down.
For instance, why are we not seeing France and Britain going over to Africa with the general statement of "This whole independence thing had been fun and all but we kinda like the whole Imperial Power idea." Both countries are nuclear powers and have huge armies (despite not always supplying soldiers with minor items like bullets). Africa contains little things like vast oil reserves and diamond mines. Yet still it doesn't happen and anyone bringing up the idea would be publicly crucified. Countries do not work on the logic of wargames. They are vastly more complicated. RE: Magical weapons, Year of the Comet (or a sourcebook of about the same time) mentions that the UCAS hopes to be able to use the Washington Rift in some way as it is lagging behind on Ghost Dance level magical firepower. The NAN are still the superpower in this matter. |
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Jan 21 2004, 10:58 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Paris, France Member No.: 639 |
My two cents.
Population issue: it has been said and written in SONA, the NAN may have a population < in number to those of their neighbors, but not so much <. Many former US anglos lives in some of these NAN, moreover. Magic mojo, NAN vs US: Clearly, the US gov was taken by surprise. Plus, the SAIM was nothing more than an extremist group of terrorists, who had Mother Nature on their side. Magic was something still rather unbelievable, people was just starting to believe the fact that magic was possible at all when Coleman evaded from his camp. How do you handle a terrorist group within your own borders, that evades your satellite observation, and use methods and weapons they shouldn't be able to use ? What do you do when billions of dollars of military equipment and thousands of military personnel vanish in ashes during a sudden volcanic eruption ? Someone talked about capturing a shaman. How ? Do you think the shamans at this time wielded signs with "I'm a shaman, shoot me" written on them ? Do you think reservations were still full ? There wasn't nobody except the oldest and weakest people there, people of no harm for the US government. Taking them as "hostage" would have been very difficult. The real threat, the valid and engaged Natives, were hidden, magically hidden from the US satellite eyes. Plus they had allies, among the Mormons, and others in the US. Not everyone were happy with a corporation sold out government which harassed a population for the resources of their land. Don't forget the real cause of all this mess: money. Let's assume the Feds try hard to capture a shaman. How do they gather information that their own few mages cannot already give them ? The SAIM guys were extremist, they were willing to die for their cause. I don't think that taking a valuable member of this group alive has been possible. In conclusion, I don't see real inconsistencies in the way the native could reclaim the land they eventually took over. Magic mojo, NAN vs any 2060 american nation: According to SONA, the CAS has probably the best army in North America. UCAS military is better in technology, but the CAS guys have more day-to-day practical experience (thanks to Aztlan). The "ghost" :grinbig: of the GGD is still fresh in the minds of the rulers of non-NAN Nations. I think SONA makes quite a good job showing how this alone has a big impact on the power balance in North America, how the NAN still rely too much on that, and how fragile the situation is for them. The NAN could only win a conflict if it was a short one, and if they were all united against their agressors. However, it is still true that these nations have an edge in magic over most of their neighors (TT Aztlan probably being the only exceptions). Why ? Because magic is far better integrated in their society model. Magic is part of their dayly culture, and it reflects in every layer of their (military especially) organisation. Someone pointed figures stating that the UCAS had far more magicians than all the NAN altogether. Statistically speaking true. But how many of these are trained and has a related job in the UCAS ? How many in the NAN. I think that in the UCAS, no more that 10% at best, in the NAN, more than 2/3 I'd bet. With these figures, even if the UCAS have 5 times more magicians within their population than the NAN, the NAN end up with more trained magic users. I'd only admit a bias of the NAN toward hermetic magic, but I think it should have a bit faded by 2061. I may come back later about (non military) reasons to try to take back NAN, or not to try that. |
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Jan 21 2004, 02:14 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,747 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
The NAGNA did state the CAS might have the best field forces in North America. IIRC, SoNA only states the CAS have the largest armed forces in North America and that their linbe troops are better trained. For the poeple willing to count, they have 6 active Army divisions, 2 Marine expeditionary forces, 16 combat squadrons in the Air Force, the "largest submarines force in the world", but only two 50ktons carriers and a brow-water navy centered on the Guld and overall seemingly weaker than the UCAS. I wouldn't also be surprised if Texas had an over-inflated National Guard.
Just googling ! In 2001, 1.4 million in the active forces, and 875,000 more in the reserve, counting the Coast Guard. Global Security have a lot more of info regarding numbers of soldiers, divisions and so on, but you have to collect it through several pages. They also link toward a full OB. To compare to the CAS numbers given above, the US have nowadays something like 10-12 active Army divisions and 3 MEF. So the CAS has between a half and a third of what the US had, which is equivalent when related to population (CAS 105 millions, US 275 millions). |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:08 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
There's one mayor difference between that Insurrection in the 10s and today - The nannies are independent nations. If (U)CAS really wants them to be gone, they can always pull that big magic trick from the 1960s called "Press da red batton" and throw a major! fireball. Since quite a few nannies are "back to nature" chances are slim they have a missile defence like Russia had and the (U)CAS most likely have (They should have learned what killed the Lone Eagle, IMHO the good ole Sowjet ABM system of real life fame)
Add the magic crap the (U)CAS can pull for it self and the lil injun insurrection goes down the drekker really fast. Birdy |
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Jan 21 2004, 04:21 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,747 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
Reminds me the rumors suggesting the Sioux might have nuclear weapons. No delivery system so I guess they'd rely on special forces to move them.
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Jan 21 2004, 06:24 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
And I seem to recall something about the thinking they the last chance to reform the US.They call the UCAS sellouts. What kind of PR would CAS get for retaking stolen land,both by NAN and rouge militants? |
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Jan 21 2004, 08:51 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
This is part cold data, part deduction.
North American nukes: Ares You name it, they've got it. Aztlan Don't have the book right here, but I love the paragraph in Aztlan SB. Aztlan doesn't have nukes, Thor missiles, FOBS, etc. Nada. They don't need to. Aztechnology more than makes up for it. California (Saito) The UCAS nukes went away with the Feds' withdrawal. The JIS nukes went aways with the Marines' withdrawal. Still, Saito would certainly love to get a few of them. Maybe one or two fell from an Akihito carrier when the Emperor recalled them. CAS The South has the US boomer fleet, while the Union got the land based missiles and the strategic bombers. CATCo A small mega, but their Seraphims are top notch, and could have possibly obtained a spare nuke in the black market (or in an Ares' warehouse :)) Novatech Another small mega, but they have Fuchi Orbital. PCC The Pueblo have nukes or are trying very hard (and very secretly) to produce them, count on it. they have the technological capability, the resources and the reasons (Aztlan, CAS, etc.) to have them as a last line of defense. Quebec No mention whatsoever, but with that paranoid, "the-Anglos-are-out-to-get-us" mentality... Salish-Shidhe Possibly, but not for sure. One of their tribes (Makah?) captured a Trident-missile submarine base during the NAN-US War. Some Captains managed to sink their subs and the nukes. The SSC wouldn't be the first party to try to recover them (Secrets of Power Trilogy, anyone?). Sioux I'm willing to bet that the most militaristic nation in North America has at least one nuke stored in a Wildcat closet. It is possible that some of Ares' Sioux employees might be a tad too friendly to their government. Tir Tairngire Who knows? On one hand, the rulers are IEs and I don't think they wouldn't like to have one or two. On the other hand, there is absolutely no reference to this possibility. Bioweapons yes, nukes no. |
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Jan 21 2004, 10:13 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
Some points to ponder: Back to nature does not mean absolutely no technology. It means they try to have less of a negative environmental impact on what they do us. It means citizens of the NAN will likely drive diesel (is it me, or anyone else find it odd that you can’t get or build a diesel car in SR when diesel cars have been around for years and there are even kits to run them off used vegetable oil?) or electric cars. They will hold on to them for 10 to 20 years instead of trading them out ever year or two. It means they are more likely to eat whole foods, practice forms of holistic medicine along side conventional, avoid the use of pesticides, practice crop rotation instead of over fertilization, build houses out of materials that will decay quickly when abandoned, recycle and reuse when ever possible, the list goes on. Does anyone happen remember the quote from the Tribal Warrior character archetype from one of the earlier versions? I think it is likely the NAN have both nuclear capabilities as well as the means to launch them. Most of the US missile silos are in what would be NAN lands. Any sort of aggression from any side would likely end up with a five way war between the nations the North America, four *if* (big if here) the CAS and UCAS ally. In other words a real cluster frag, and likely a scorched earth victory (in other word, you win, but end up either destroying your target objective, or damaging it to such a degree to make it unusable). With the fact the food from the NAN will likely cut off from the aggressors, can any nation afford to rely on its own supplies to feed its population? You can't just drop ship farmers in the middle of a combat zone, the farmers there are not going to work at gun point, and most people in the CAS, UCAS, Aztlan, and CFS do not know enough about farming in that region to get large scale food production going soon enough to make a difference. In other words, if push came to shove, the NAN could just leave their farms and engage in a large scale reverse siege and starve the aggressors out. We also have a similar situation to look at that occurred in our own (relatively) recent past, the seven days war. Here we have a whole group of Middle East nations with lots of money and manpower teaming up against Israel, a nations with some money, yes but not as much, and not nearly as much manpower. And the Israelis kicked butt. One reason for this was because the Israelis knew and utilized the land much better, an advantage I think the NAN would likely share. Also, I would not put it past the most of the NAN to support compulsory military service. Since most resources are not even owned my governments at all, by the most powerful and influential forces in the Shadowrun world, I think most of you are forgetting to think about how they would feel about World War III. Namely the Megacorps. War to that degree is not profitable for the majority of Megacorps. Sure, most have some holdings in arms manufacture, but that is not the bulk of where their income is derived from. It comes from sales of general consumer goods, which rely on strong consumer confidence. Consumers tend to get edgy around war and don’t make a many big purchases. Finally, most countries tend to nationalize their private industry when they go to major war. Or at least nationalize what are seen as most vital. They do not do nice things like buy up companies stocks or processing plants, but do so by fiat, if the industries in question do not want to play ball the way the government in question wants to play it. These are not conditions the Megacorporations are interested in condoning. It’s bad for business. But it seems like Playing Games is wanting to see the NAN invaded and feels they deserve to be and no argument to going to persuade hir otherwise. PG, if you want an invasion in your game then I say go for it. No one has ever said that the state of the continent has to stay static. I’m sure it would make for an interesting campaign. The players could be mercs, special ops, or spies. Or you could set the game in a post war era, and the players could be vets, trying to make their way in a dramatically changed world. A world where their services are no longer needed and many of the population look on them with a mix of fear, disgust, and anger, especially the overly wired and augmented ones. If you do take that route, I would strongly suggest searching out and acquiring a copy of Underground if you can. Has a very cyberpunk meets 1960s Vietnam vet meets 1940s imagry and patriotism meets 1950s "land of tomorrow and opportunity" feel to it. Great stuff |
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Jan 21 2004, 11:08 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Santa Cruz Member No.: 5,500 |
My point is that the NAN in the canon world lack man power to stop (U)CAS.The numbers in the PCC verge on having negatitive poplulace before 2061.
The great back bone of the NAN,the Suix has or lost anywhere from 8-14% of their population to denver. The Ute has or lost 16-30% of their population to or in Denver. The Ute has lost anyware from 40-50% the modern day population in their area. Not a singel NAN has a population to make a city that would be note worthily on the US map.They lack man power to do what they do.Their is no reason that any of the NAN could keep up with (U)CAS,in either tech or magic.Even with the great ghost dance magic, they lost their edge. The natives use the great ghost dance level of magic,this causes the(U)CAS to go into a MAD plan.When the great ghost dance first happened nuking was a lose for the US,as they would be nuking themselves.Now the NAN if pulls out their mistical nukes,the (U)CAS,pulls out it's real ones. As for the 7 day war,it is nothing like the (U)CAS invading the NAN.The invading forces were going for the same stragtic goal, their tatical goals were nothing alike.The problems they had would more like the problems the NAN would have,than the (U)CAS.Too many Cheifs. My problem is hte numbers in the NAN.If I were change the NAN,they would each have 1-5 million people with the PCC geting 8-13 million. |
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Jan 21 2004, 11:25 PM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the UCAS has way too much on its plate to consider going on the offense with anybody. i mean, look at the past ten years: they nearly went to war with the CAS, they elected a dragon for prez and then watched him get blown up on national trid, they nuked chicago--and that's just what's gone on inside their borders, that i can think of off the top of my head. and it's not like the UCAS military has a whole lot of manpower to spare, either--while taking on the NAN, they'd still have to man the CAS border. there's also the matter of Ghostwalker to consider--do you think he'd stand by and watch, while the UCAS gobbled up the land? there's plenty of reason to think Denver would be next on the list; the first thing the NAN would do would be to enlist his help. the UCAS military planners aren't stupid; they know all this, and that's one of the major reasons that this hasn't happened.
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Jan 21 2004, 11:53 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,948 |
Again PG, if you feel that the NAN should be invaded then run it. You were asking for reason why they have not and we gave the most realistic and plausable reasons there seem to be. Apparently you are still not satisfied and seem to be looking for reasons for the NAN to be invaded. If you want to go that route and would like to have an idea of the international coniquences of such an action I am sure there are plenty on this board that would brainstorm with you there as well.
Or if you think the NAN should have a greater population, then do so. I would suggest giving a reason for it though. And you never know, maybe the designers have an invasion of the NAN in the works already. I'm sure it would make for an interesting plot twist and just think of all the nifty cyber and bioware that would come out of it. Not to mention advances in vehicle technology. Maybe we'd finally get some nifty powered armor... |
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