New Player Looking For Advice, Character Concept and Rambling Thoughts Options

[CanadianWolverin...]

Hi there shadows. Sure is dark in here - oh drek, something just touched my leg! Sorry if I have placed this thread in the inappropriate place and I hope you will forgive me.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a new player to Shadowrun even though I have had the rule book for a few years now, it was only till recently that I found another human being who asked me to make a starting character. I originally picked the book up at comic book store mainly because of various fictional novels I had read in the library that were very fun cyber punk and upon seeing the brand in the role/roll playing section I said to myself I just gotta check that out. It was a gaming birthday present to myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) Back more to the present, upon learning I would use it for more than just the cool little stories at the start of the chapters and admiring the artwork, I have become nervous, paranoid you might say, that I don't have the first clue as to what I am doing - not the least because I discovered this 4th edition I picked up was missing pages 113 to 128, instead pages 129 to 144 repeat themselves.

Did that happen to any of you?

Now I discover that the Fanpro name on the front of the book is defunct as well but the product number of 26000 seems to have stayed the same. Catalyst seem like a cool bunch though, hope that is working out well.

I thought I would mention that just in case you wonder why my character might be so weird (besides being built by a inexperienced player), especially considering that Fanpro ---> Catalyst isn't the only difference these days, what with 4 ---> 4A apparently.

So, on to the meat and potatoes, here is the character I came up with and I was wondering what the shadows might think of it - in other words, my character is going to die a horrible death and soon, eh?

400 BP
Personal Data
Name: Criminal SiN: Logan "" RT / Fake SiN: Jack "" Logan / Nick: "Eagle Eye"
Metatype: Elf (30 BP) Age: 25 Sex: M Nuyen: (Not Rolled Yet) Lifestyle: Low Total Karma:
Current Karma: Street Cred: 0 Notoriety: 4 Public Awareness: 1

Attributes
Physical Attributes Body: 4 (30 BP) Agility: 6 (40 BP) Reaction: 5 (7) (40 BP) Strength: 4 (30 BP)
Mental Attributes Charisma: 3 Intuition: 4 (30 BP) Logic: 2 (10 BP) Willpower: 2 (10 BP) (Total 190 BP)
Special Attributes Edge: 3 (20 BP) Essence: 6 Initiative: 9 (11) Magic: 5 (40 BP)
Special Attributes Current Edge Points: 4 Astral Init: ? Matrix Init: ? Init Passes: 1(3) (Total 250 BP)

Skills
Active Skills
Athletics Skill Group 3 S (30 BP)
Dodge (Ranged) 4 (+2) R (18 BP)
Pistols (Semi-Auto) 7 (10+2) A (34 BP)
Longarms (Sniper) 4 (+2) A (18 BP)
Perception (Visual) 3 (+2) I (14 BP)
Pilot Ground Craft 1 (4 BP)
Armorer 1 (4 BP)
(Total 122 BP)
Knowledge Skills (18 Free BP)
Fire Arms Design 4 L
Fire Arms History 2 L
Action Movies 1 I
Lone Star 3 L
Construction 2 L
Japanese 1
Cantonese 1
Spanish 1
Sperethiel 1
Salish 2
English (Cityspeak) N

Qualities
Adept (-5 BP)
Ambidextrous (-5 BP)
SiNner (Salish Juvie) (+10 BP)
Scorched (+5 BP)
Sensitive System (+15 BP)
Sensitive Neural (+5 BP)
Aptitude (Pistols) (-10 BP)
(Total +15 BP)

Contacts (8 BP)
Fixer (Elf) Loyalty: 4 Connection: 4

[b]Gear[b] (Total 24997 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) / 5 BP)
Ranged Weapons
8 Colt Man 5P/6P/7P -1/-2/-3 SA RC- 16© Smart Linked w/6 Quickdraw Holsters, 2 Concealable Holsters, 2 Silencers
6 Clips of Regular, 16 Clips of Explosive, 8 Clips of Ex-Explosive, 1 Smoke Nade
Other
Contact Lenses w/Smart Link, Image Link, Vision Mag
Earbuds, Subvocal, Skinlink
Fake SiN 4, Fake Detective License 4
Medkit 6, Armorer Kit, Construction Kit
Armor
Lined Coat 6/4 -2 Conceal Mod
Vehicle
Suzuki Handling +2 Accel 20/50 Speed 200 Pilot 1 Body 6 Armor 4 Sensor 1
Commlink
Renraku Sensei Response 2 System 3 Firewall 3 Signal 4 Programs Iris Orb O/S

Adept Powers (5 Power Points)
Improved Ability (Pistols) 3 (1.5 PP)
Improved Reflexes 2 (3 PP)
Improved Sense: Scent, Taste (0.5 PP)

Back Story
Born and raised in Vancouver, Salish-Shidhe Council (Present day it would be Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) by his Ucluelet First Nation mother and Elf father. At age 10 he was Scorched while playing a Virtual Reality (PC/Console) First Person Shooter MMO when the game was hacked and the IC got a little too aggressive - not a problem for most playing but he was unfortunately sensitive and incompetent in "real" cybercombat. While recovering physically from that ordeal and a bit pissed off at no longer being able to play with his online and IRL friends in their favorite FPS games, he decided to take the game into meatspace aka the real world. Armed with his trusty semi-auto B-B gun pistols he used Holiday (Xmas?) lights as his "virtual" enemies - too bad for him though, the corp who owned those Holiday lights didn't see it as a game and threw "the book" at him. They would have sentenced him to the adult prison system if his parents hadn't intervened and pleaded for leniency, so instead they sent him to a maximum level Juvenile Detention center for 5 years instead and his folks had to sign over legal custody to the Salish state. That was the last he ever saw of his parents, by their choice and his own. They worked him hard in Juvie, where a Shaman doing social work saw potential in him to reform him, thus making him aware of his strength as a Adept. Juvie was also where he met his best and only friend - an Elf who had been visiting the facility for his own private reasons to meet with the warden and guards was made aware by them of the potential in the little inmate, especially of the story of how he earned his bunk their in the first place. Somehow, the mysterious stranger arranged a meeting with Logan to show him how well he could shoot, who even remarked "You have an eagle's eye, kid", even though he had never touched an actual fire arm in his life other than his parent's hunting rifle many years ago he managed to impress enough that he started receiving "care packages" from the Elf, who asked Logan to just call him Fixer for now, because he was "fixing" him. The packages contained e-books on fire arms design and history, which he studied for those long, lonely years - even having starkly vivid dream about shooting his B-B guns in ways to have avoided capture by the corp sec in the first place or how he would set himself free from Juvie with them. The social working Shaman said he noticed a difference in his aura after that, like it had begun to burn more brightly. Fixer even managed some how to get him early release, though the Shaman seemed displeased at that for some reason, a single tear on the Shaman's face was what Logan saw briefly when Fixer calmly walked him out of Juvie and into his new life at 14. Life with Fixer was both the most exhilarating and hardest thing he had ever known, the training was brutal, with success met with abundant rewards and failures met with brutal punishments. "Better I fix you now kid than the drek of the world fixing you for good," he would say with a sad look in his eyes. The years spent at Fixer's remote and very private acres in the wilderness were some of the best in his life, where he flew through the obstacle course firing ranges with the exuberance of youth, even constructing new obstacles of his own to show off for Fixer. But all good things must come to an end and when he was 17 Fixer gave him a gift for his birthday of a scooter and took him back to Vancouver to begin working for him doing small "jobs", which were as mysterious as they were bizarre - sometimes he was told to go stand on a street corner for a day and others to go to the library and find obscure old books on firearms and memorize them. During the times when Fixer wasn't giving him the odd jobs, he would carefully clean and maintain the gear Fixer had given him as rewards for jobs well done, exercise, watch his favorite action movies, and go to work on construction sites - especially the older home renovations were interesting. Construction sites were a great place to learn from all different types of people, especially a few basic swear words in other languages. It was when Logan turned 20 though that Fixer gave him a smile and told him to hand over everything he owned. Perplexed but trusting his friend, he did as was told and was rewarded with a new identity, a new ride, and pistols with accessories then given what he would learn was his first real job - to kill another metahuman. To that end, Fixer "lent" him the same type of sniper rifle he had practiced with in the wilderness camp and was told to go wait a particular address for further instructions to his new identities comm. Upon arriving at what turned out to be a empty construction sight with minimal security, "Eagle Eye" set up his roost like he was at the range and waited. He didn't have to wait long and the instructions were brief, a image of the target and its direction from his location. Just like the obstacle course, he turned in the direction, acquired the target and put a Ex-Ex round through the back of his head's silhouette, packed up the rifle and left the construction site just like he would run and climb through the obstacle courses. Jack "Eagle Eye" Logan has been taking similar jobs from his friend Fixer ever since and that is how he came to be in the shadows.
So, I hope that wasn't too boring of a read. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Any suggestions, advice, or comments for this poor drek?

Edit: Reduced Negative Qualities, dropped Body and Edge by 1 point to be within the Quality limits. Thanks!

Edit2: As requested to be in the OP, here is my take on what the character would try to do with some nuyen he earned by nearly dying, as told later in this thread about this newbie's first game.

So, the "grocery" list, for your viewing pleasure. Eagle Eye called up his Elf Fixer (Loyalty 4 Connection 4) and ordered these fine products after he had a Standard Doc Wagon Contract ordered:

For the Commlink:
- Datasoft 6
- Mapsoft 6
For the Ruger 100 he looted he wanted to trade it in and get a Ruger 100 with:
- 5 reg ammo
- Silencer
- Smart Gun/Smartlink: Improved Camera: Vision 3, Flare, Thermo, Low, Mag
- Carry Case, Sling
He had looted the Camo Suit off the headless sniper and wanted to sew some stuff onto it and fill the pockets:
- Tag Eraser (Just in case any of his fellow runners decided to tag his person or suzuki motorcycle)
- Holo Projector (Duke Nukem 3D, hehe...)
- Survival Kit (Heh, the character was going to leave town, this team rolls like a bunch of Orc Gangers!)
- Biomonitor (His health is a bit more of a concern now, dodging isn't enough - can't spend the nuyen if you are dead)
- Sensor Package: Helmet/Armor:
-- Radio Signal Scanner 6 (No point in tag erasing if I am unaware of the tags)
-- MAD Scanner 3
-- Cyberware Scanner 6
-- Atmosphere Sensor 3
-- Geiger Counter
Additional Armor concerns given the whole Sniper incident:
- Helmet (Motorcross like, to function as a anti-face recognition mask as well, with this addition)
-- Gas Mask
- Ballistic Shield
- Long Duster "Cowboy" Jacket to replace the now pawned/traded/sold Lined Coat conceal modifier
Trade/Sell the Contact Lenses for an improved set of sensor, even if some of it ends up on some of the helmet's protective face shield:
- Improved Contact Lenses:
-- Smart & Image Link, Vision 3, Ultra, Mag, Flare, Thermo
Trade/Sell the Earbuds same reasons as above:
- Improved Earbuds:
-- Audio Enhance 3
-- Spatial
-- Select Sound Filter 3
Trade/Sell the Colt Manchester Smartguns, better understanding of the limits of dual pistols has the character going single pistol for his Gunslinging needs but wants improvements:
- Improved Colt Man: Smartgun/Smartlink Camera Improved:
-- Vision 3, Vision Mag, Ultra, Flare, Thermo, Low

Note: Better understanding of the use of a Smartgun/Smartlink/Imagelink in the other thread in which I asked about Shooting Around Corners in SR 2070, I want the characters equipment to be in sync, especially with his beloved semi auto pistol.

Thanks for taking a look at the list, I wouldn't be surprised if I misunderstood some of equipment modification stuff making some of this impossible, which would be a shame, or if the equipment is so custom that the estimated "Grocery" list total of 9479 nuyen.gif (sold/traded equipment not factored in) is not enough for its street value but I would hope my good friend the Elf Fixer who got Eagle Eye into the shadows in the first place would be able to help out, though it would still take some time to put the whole list together.

Other items not on the list but desired in the future would be:
- a better commlink with better programs for helping with personal security and intel acquisition in the field (something called an Agent, right?) with Satellite Link, White Noise Generator, and Micro-Transciever mod as well.
- B&E equipment
- Improved Custom Camo Suit Armor
- Improved Survival Kit
- Improvised Explosives: High Octane Fuel + Metal Gas Can + Clip of Ex-Ex + Ball Bearings/Caltrops/Roofing Nails + Packing Styrofoam + Contact Cement + Remote Detonator Cap + Birthday Present Bow + Birthday Box full of Flash-Bang Grenades that "accidentally" was stuck to the Metal Gas Can ... other uses would be to shut off the power to a building and fire bombing but the original idea was born of being anti-personel/runner.
- Improved Custom Suzuki Motorbike: Anti Chase Weapon Mount (Hehe, Spy Chaser/Catcher, old arcade game...), Sensor/Anti-Sensor Package, Additional Storage, Off Road Mods
- Very Strong Area Jammer
- Diving Gear
- Modified Custom Off Road Van to accommodate sleeping quarters, gear storage, suzuki bike storage, and ...
- Modified Custom Stealth Submersible Jet-ski
- Modified Custom Stealth Long Distance HALO Hang Glider/Parachute
- Modified Transport Air Craft to transport the above
- Tons of fake SINs and Licenses
- Tons of safe houses
- A more healthy living standard (Low Lifestyle and below sucks! Hehe...)

Hope you've enjoyed my silly list, if you look you can see the progression of where I had hoped the character could go in the "grocery" list. Its stuff I think a SR 2070 Gunslinger trying to upgrade to Respected Hitman and then High Profile Assassin status would try for. Obviously none of this will happen in this particular gaming group now, hehe, still fun to imagine though.

[ElFenrir]

Hello! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Okies, for my 2 cents:

First, you are only allowed to take 35 points of positive, and 35 points of Negative qualities. You have 15 Positive which is fine, but 60 points of negative. You'd need to shave some off; I suggest dropping Incompentence, Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure, and the Allergy. This will bring it down to 35 points. But then you need to dig up 25 more points.

Keep Pistols at 6. The extra BP for Aptitude/the cost is just way too much for 1 die. It's cool and all, but a 6(+2)[9(+2] still makes him amazing. Dropping Aptitude will free up 10 of those BP you need to scrape up. 8 more BP can be freed up then, since Pistols will be at 6 instead, so now you just need to shave off 7 more BP.

Otherwise, you remembered Perception, Dodge, etc. Which is good.

The 2 Willpower might be hairy, but it's workable.

Improved Reflexes is cheaper in SR4A if I recall. If you are playing SR4 basic, they are indeed kinda expensive.

I would try to fumble up some points for some close combat if possible; an Unarmed(spec) of 2(+2) would be nice. He's tough and strong enough to take some hits and dish some out if necessary.

I'll get back to you on some more tweaks tho!

[suppenhuhn]

First off, welcome to dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Now to your built:
You have too many points spent under qualities, you may have only 35 points in positive and another 35 in negative qualities not 35 overall.
Maybe get rid of that aptitude to get back some points.

Gymnastics inside your athletics group can be used to dodge by itself, so you may want to get rid of the former to free up some points.
It is also cheaper to boost via adept powers since it's not part of the combat group.

Ask your gm if he's ok playing sr4a, you can download a free errata here.

If he is ok with it you'll get the improved reflexes half a power point cheaper which you could then spend on improving your gymnastics or dodge.

Another thing is you have quite a lot specialisations. Those are cheaper when you buy em later with karma so consider removing some.
Especially the sniper specialisation isn't too useful for you at start since you don't even own one yet.

Overall the build is pretty nice though and you will die a horrible and painful death with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thanks for the replies, I do appreciate the advice.

So, then I take it I was reading this incorrectly on page 80:

Negative Qualities
Negative qualities provide bonus BP that can be used toward the cost of attributes, skills, qualities, and other resources and abilities. Characters may not earn more than 35 BP from purchasing Negative Qualities.

It is that silly word "earn", why not just say "may not gain"... hmm, that word doesn't quite work then either, how about, well, how you guys worded it. From what I gather then from what you say that means the only way to get 35 BP from Qualities is to take no positive Qualities, right? Why would anyone do that? *shrug*

Hmm, so if I kept the positives the best I get is +15 BP, right? So, that is a 20 BP difference I need to shave, hoo boy. Want to keep the Contact ... Gear ... Hmm, any of the attributes I might be able to knock the 20 out there and still stay in concept? I was kinda trying to max those silly things out for the most part but if there is something there, like maybe the body or strength down a point each? Or lower Edge and Body by one? I wonder what Negative Qualities I could drop and still stay in the backstory... hmm...

Also, did anyone else get the missing/duplicate pages thing?

And any advice on playing Shadowrun? I gathered up all my D6 from my board games for starters, I think I counted around 40 dice, hope that is enough. I have just a little experience with PnP games and that is from this same group playing D&D , which incidentally I end up being a paranoid (see: cowardly) character in that, I get in a bit of trouble for not seeing fights through to the bitter end if things look bad.

Various favorite action movies, usually involving assasins it seems, are my inspiration for this character, when I saw the Gunslinger Adept that is what it reminded me of. I really want those positive Qualities to do two things, dual wield pistols from a quick draw and almost bend the bullets, like Wanted for lack of a better example. Slow motion reaction time type thing should be fun too ... mmm, gun-fu... So if there was one exceptional attribute I could have that I want it would be Reaction base 7, rather than a higher Agility of base 8, I am guessing. Expensive though, huh? I really worked on the backstory, I hope it was enjoyable in explaining how someone could be good gun-fu assasin / hitman thingy but not too impressive at anything else thanks to that Criminal SiN growing up. Friggin corps...

Edit: Oh, and where might I read about what happened to where I live in the SR4 future in any detail. Seems some cities are covered in a lot of detail, Seatle comes to mind, but I am curious what is going on around where I live now. If you do a shadowrun somewhere, do you for the most part just make stuff up on the fly or do you have some basis in our reality and the one of SR4? If I knew more about the Salishe-Shide country and its relationship with the various corps, I think I might actually rather live there than have it fly under the red maple leaf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Do you think the various tribes / first nations would be better off and not live in such third world conditions as much any more or would it just be more of the same? Do the Corps then still try to basicly steal from a tribes home territory like has happened in the past and still goes on today though more under the radar? Would fresh drinking water and sub-tropical forests and the surrounding oceans be more or less protected? Whatever happened to the Queen Charlotte Islands - would the Haida really live under Salish-Shide authority? What kind of government do they run? Did we finally get proportional representation?

[toolbox]

It is that silly word "earn", why not just say "may not gain"... hmm, that word doesn't quite work then either, how about, well, how you guys worded it. From what I gather then from what you say that means the only way to get 35 BP from Qualities is to take no positive Qualities, right? Why would anyone do that? *shrug*

For more BP to spend on other things?

Look, you still gain the BP from negative Qualities even if you immediately proceed to spend it on positive Qualities. Worded another way, you can use negative Qualities to increase your total BP budget from (say) 400 to a maximum of 435. You can spend those BP on anything you normally would - attributes, skills, positive Qualities (which are also capped at 35 BP worth), whatever.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Cool, see that makes a lot more sense put that way. Just weird wording - did that change in the SR4A version or does it still say the same thing on page 80? *shrug* Not trying to make a big deal or anything, which I get the sense I might somehow be giving off that vibe with your use of the word "Look", I really do appreciate the help clearing it up.

So, where do you think I should shave the 20 BP from? Attributes? Skills? Positive Qualities? Just me guessing I think shaving a point from some attributes would be the quick and dirty solution, right? Hmm, lower Body, Strength, or Edge, what to do...

[toolbox]

Cool, see that makes a lot more sense put that way. Just weird wording - did that change in the SR4A version or does it still say the same thing on page 80? *shrug* Not trying to make a big deal or anything, which I get the sense I might somehow be giving off that vibe with your use of the word "Look", I really do appreciate the help clearing it up.

Sorry about that - I was just trying to emphasize the important bit. I'm really tired and possibly grumpy right now, so I apologize for any offense; it was unintended.

The change from SR4 to SR4A reworded and reorganized a lot of stuff, so page references don't translate directly across from one to the other, but there's a 35-point cap mentioned for both positive and negative Qualities in there... somewhere.

[CanadianWolverin...]

No worries, no offense taken, the medium of text only is a limiting one at times so I always take that into consideration in trying to convey tone.

Thanks again for the help, edited the first post to reflect the new knowledge of Negative Qualities. Dropped the Allergy, Addiction, and Incompetent Cybercombat, then dropped Body and Edge by one point to make up that difference. Even with that, I think the back story still reads about the same.

So any advice on playing? Knowledge of Vancouver, Salish (North of Seatle) setting? What kind of jobs would my character be good or bad at? What is a mistake that new players usually make that can be avoided and improve character survivability? Do I save or spend my starting nuyen when the game starts? Do I give my Contact a call first thing? How paranoid of my fellow runners on a team should I be?

[ElFenrir]

Again, if I had to shave the points:

-Lose Aptitude: Pistols. (10)
-The 8 BP from bringing the 6 to a 7 would be saved(18)

Ahh, you adjusted it. Well, that's cool. I would still consider picking up a close combat skill, either Unarmed or Clubs, and with the latter you can get his pistols melee-hardened for some nice damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You could afford a couple points from Dodge if you did this as well(since your melee block could be used instead.) If you did the above with the Pistols and the Aptitude(trust me-1 die comes out to 1/3 of a success on average), the 18 BP could be used to invest in the extra skill, and again, he would still be amazing. Unless you REALLY see that Aptitude as part of the character.

In that case, you could probably lose a couple points of Dodge(using your Gymnastics dodge) and pick up the melee skill to help out. (I'm a big fan of being able to do at least *something* in close, even if it's minor.

Otherwise, IMO, it is a very solid first build indeed.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Yeah, I do see that expensive Aptitude as kinda character building, from his mispent youth. Come to think of it, his Fixer friend probably sent him on a few "jobs" that were pistol shooting competitions or something like that. I know, that 18 BP hit is big horse pill to swallow but somehow it just feels right - I blame the "Wild Bill" Hickock descriptor for the Rating 7 Legendary Firearms example on page 109 as being far too enticing. I wonder who Thunder Tyee is though...

Heh, I think the Dodge points and specialization in Ranged for it spring mostly from it being one of the few skills I have a description for it being on page 112, just before the missing pages of 113 to 128. I basicly picked any skills that weren't those first few Combat Active Skills based on the Skills and Linked Attributes table on page 111. I only saw Dodge being used in the Combat chapter with regards to Full Defense it looks like, other than that it seems Reaction is used unless surprised. Where can I find the notes on using Gymnastics instead? Why would the game have two skills that do the same thing?

And the melee fighting with pistols, that sounds like fun, sorta like that scene in Wanted or parts of Equilibrium, IIRC. Are the notes about hardening in another book? And what is so bad about putting a pair of pistols up close to someone and pulling the trigger a couple times as a way to deter any thoughts, let alone those of the melee variety - did I miss something on the rules to combat? I've been getting the impression ranged trumps melee in SR4 (totally unlike D&D where it seems like melee is king unless you are bad ass with spells), what is my newbie perception of my incomplete 4th ed book missing?

[ElFenrir]

If it fits, run with it, that's what I say. Don't worry-I myself have a couple characters with very large point dumps into things that I really didn't need one extra point in-but it fit. Not all the time, but now and again it's fun.

The Melee Hardening is in the Arsenal book, which has tons of different combat options and equipment in it. It's a very good read.

Melee CAN be excellent in SR4-but it takes a lot of work if you specialize in it. It's basically a lot easier to get ranged at the ''crazy'' level than it is melee. Now, with melee it's not too hard to get big damage-but you also have to worry about closing in, getting semi-automatic fire on you, etc(though ballistic armor isn't too hard to come by I've found. My character is a melee specialist and I didn't even go overboard with armor and he sports quite a bit.) But in general, to get an uber-melee person you do need to work at it. But giving someone a bit of it isn't a bad thing, and you don't *need* to have a crapton of DV or dice to be somewhat effective.

Ranged has a few slight disadvantages; firing into melee nets you a negative modifier if you have friends there, for example. Of course, even with a silencer, if you are on-side, a quick knife to the temple from behind will likely silence someone a bit faster(or, for non lethal, a quick chokehold.) Of course, you need to carry and stay stocked on ammo(though that is so easy I wouldn't count it.) And finally, any sort of weapon can raise questions in certain more secure zones, when an unarmed guy can just sorta walk around.

Gymnastics Dodge vs. Dodge has been the discussion of tons of threads around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In short, Dodge is good for someone who has no combat skills at all, or no melee(and doesn't plan on taking it), since your full defense melee roll is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge. But Gymnastics is useful in many areas, and is taken by more combative characters often(you'd roll Melee Skill + Reaction + Gymnastics to do a full block/parry.) Dodge can also be used if driving a vehicle(vehicle dodge), Gymnastics cannot. (So yeah, you don't *need* a melee skill, but being able to do something without defaulting is a nice thing I've found. Knocking them out from in-close, grappling them, etc.) Gymnastics dodge is mentioned in the combat chapter, but I forget the page(don't have my book in front of me.)

And yeah, the pistol-whipping mayhem is always in my head for Equilibrium as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

<snip>

And yeah, the pistol-whipping mayhem is always in my head for Equilibrium as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Heh, you've given me a lot to think about, I keep staring at my character page now, eying the Athletics Skill Group wondering if I should drop a point of it (10 BP) to turn into Clubs 2 or Unarmed 2 with a specialization. Or getting 4 BP from a point of Dodge and turning it into a basic level in one of those skills.

Oh! Here is something, a Pistol/Rifle Butt (Clubs) Reach - Damage Value (STR/2+1)P AP - at the bottom of the Melee Weapons Table page 149. Hmm, how do I use that ... Clubs 2 ... huh, and I could specialize in Parrying (+2). And it uses Agility! Whoo! So that's 10 dice there ... What am I using this for again? Ack, now I have gone and confused myself again, I felt like I was on to something there for a second. No, it wouldn't be 10 dice, attackers get to use agility, so it would be 8 if attacking and 9 defending by parry but I could get the same with reaction + dodge and more if I went full defense... If I shoot the melee bugger, he takes penalties to his dice pool, right? Hmm, and if used Called Shot... Perception is the counter to someone trying to sneak up on me right? And some bugger trying to close the distance in a less subtle manner should be obvious right?

Hmm, here's a thought, since I have video for where my pistol points to my contacts, I could point the pistol around a corner and fire at someone from full cover, right? Or do I still get that penalty?

[ElFenrir]

Basic melee would be, say:

Clubs(Parrying) 2(+2). So if you were attacked, you get to roll your Reaction + Dodge(or Gymnastics Dodge) + Weapon Skill. Since you are specialized in Parry you could roll that if you were indeed trying to parry in melee. So you would get a total of 7 + 4(if Dodge) + 4. pr 15 dice on Full Defense. If you were just parrying normal, you'd roll Reaction + Parry, or 11 dice.

If attacking with, say, your pistol whip, you would roll your Agility + Clubs skill, in this case, 8 dice, and it would do 3P damage for a whack, base. So if you got 2 net successes, you'd probably put a rather nice bruise on their skull.

Don't mean to confuse you, by the way. You'll get it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Again, this is not necessary, but I have found in my SR experience it's nice to have a little bit of melee to fall back on(if you are a combat-oriented character.)

A camera that looks around corners on your gun? I think I missed that one.

Someone being attacked gets a penalty every attack they getm AFTER the first attack. So if you attack them with a shot, and then again in the same round, they get a -1 to defend. If someone else attacks right after you(same action phase), they get *another* minus. A good strategy to take down a fairly tough opponent is to work as a team to get those modifiers lower if they are dodge-happy. It's also a good thing if one HAS a good dodging pool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I forget about the firing behind full cover rule. I THINK both parties get the penalty, but I have to look at that again as well.

[Cardul]

One big thing to remember here: You will get alot of advice for min-maxing here. Shadowrun is a game where you pretty much HAVE to do some min-maxing. But, just because something is innefficient does not mean that it is not "Cool"...and, you have a character that is, with smartlink rolling 20 dice to hit with a pistol 6 times a turn...that is cool...you have 8 guns..that is cool(I could imagine the character using gymnastics dodge, pulling a gun from a holster and firing, or pulling 2 against goons and taking the 10 dice each, then, when he runs out of ammo, dropping them, pulling out another two, etc, etc...it is just visually made of Cool!)

And remember: Contrary to what the Trenchcoats and Mirrorshades crowd that dominates Dumpshock says: If it is not Cool! then there is no point in doing it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Though, personally, I would have gone with two Ruger Warhawks, with enlarged cylanders, and then been doing the "shoot one, then shoot the second" for the full 20 dice each and the big arse heavy revolvers that blow things to bits.

[CanadianWolverin...]

One big thing to remember here: You will get alot of advice for min-maxing here. Shadowrun is a game where you pretty much HAVE to do some min-maxing. But, just because something is innefficient does not mean that it is not "Cool"...and, you have a character that is, with smartlink rolling 20 dice to hit with a pistol 6 times a turn...that is cool...you have 8 guns..that is cool(I could imagine the character using gymnastics dodge, pulling a gun from a holster and firing, or pulling 2 against goons and taking the 10 dice each, then, when he runs out of ammo, dropping them, pulling out another two, etc, etc...it is just visually made of Cool!)

And remember: Contrary to what the Trenchcoats and Mirrorshades crowd that dominates Dumpshock says: If it is not Cool! then there is no point in doing it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Though, personally, I would have gone with two Ruger Warhawks, with enlarged cylanders, and then been doing the "shoot one, then shoot the second" for the full 20 dice each and the big arse heavy revolvers that blow things to bits.

In the first paragraph you got it pretty much dead on, sorta like that one fire fight in Boondock Saints where the brother's dad first shows up and is just loaded to the nines with pistols. I pictured in my mind doing some hairy things which would take minuses to my dice pool for pistols and that I would be splitting the dice pools and using the Firearms Skill Group 4 they had in the Gunslinger Adept stats just didn't seem like it was going to cut it unless it was always relying on its edge. Called shots galore, double taps twice per Init Pass, shoot up to 4 different targets in a IP, run out of ammo and quickdraw my next couple of pistols, if I really have to make the shot and total damage not a problem drop a pistol and use a single, if the target is outside the range of the pistol I was going to use Vis Mag to take aim and lock on, if something needed to take the target(s) by surprise I was going to pull out the more hidden silenced pistols, and I was going to use the Smartlink to try to switch out ammo types quicker and see around corners/cover.

BTW, do I apply the negatives to my total dice pool then split it between the dual wielding of the semi auto pistols or does it get applied to both pistols after I split, so basicly double penalty? I sure hope it is the first.

Right now I think it goes like this:
Quickdraw 7(+3+2)+5 vs 3 for it being dual done twice, then I do attacking test [6+7(+3+2)+2-(?)]/2 vs Reaction [1 to 10] + Dodge [1 to 7 (+2)] then do it again as my next simple action depending on if anyone is still standing. And if anyone else is still standing in my 2nd Init Pass, Take Aim then Called Shot to do all kinds of fun stuff.

Hmm, I could get in up to 6 Take Aim max it looks like so, I guess depending on how fast the other guy is I could use like up to a full combat turn to get +6 towards a Called Shot on the next Combat turn? Or +4 if I had to take the pistols out the holster, take aim, and Called Shot in my last simple action of the last (3rd) Init Pass?

Hmm, do I need to use Quickdraw if I want to draw both weapons in a simple action? Because Ready Weapon seems like I can only pull one pistol out at a time... Would I have to use a whole Init Pass to pull out my silenced, hidden holster pistols? Do I have to shoot if I Quickdraw?

Hmm... okay, here is a min max question then, in what ways can I reduce the negatives to my shooting the most to get the best dice pool?

I'm kinda thinking my first bit of Karma (if the character lives that long) should go to making the character more sneaky to get more Surprise and just eliminate the targets defense all together... Or should I try to save my Karma up? Getting more Magic for Power Points seems kinda important too...

[Cardul]

Thank gods! There is still someone left who is somehwat punk! I thought everyone had converted die-hard to the Trenchcoats and Mirrorshades crowd!

Yeah, generally, I look at it like this: First start with something COOL...then work with the GM to figure out how to torture the rules so it is viable..

And then give yousrself some odd-ball knowledge skills (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thank gods! There is still someone left who is somehwat punk! I thought everyone had converted die-hard to the Trenchcoats and Mirrorshades crowd!

Yeah, generally, I look at it like this: First start with something COOL...then work with the GM to figure out how to torture the rules so it is viable..

And then give yousrself some odd-ball knowledge skills (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Thanks for all the help! I recently showed my character sheet to the GM and he said it was well done, and that is in no small part to all your help here on the forums, especially when it came to understanding the Negative Qualities.

Wait? I'm punk? Hehe... Out of curiousity, what is does the Trenchcoats and Mirrorshades crowd mean? Punk I am pretty sure is a sort of anti-establishment stance and I am cool with that considering when establishments are not localized but rather centralized - its a lot harder for a bueraucrat to screw his neighborhood than a number file in a stack of said numbers that his boss is bitching at him about or a corp to have poluting business when it isn't in their backyard.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Well, an update of sorts, played the first session and it went something like this...

Psykis Monro "How did we meet?"
Eagle Eye (Me) "My Contact set me up to meet you?"
Lancaster "Met on previous jobs. Next."
GM "Ok. Introduce yourselves ... you are all elves, right? Hoo boy..."
Psykis Monro "I have a weapon facility..."
Eagle Eye "I could meet you there. How do spell your name and what do you do?"
Psykis Monro "Sure, lets meet there, *spells name* and weapons specialist, I have a lot of different weapons and can make new ones."
Lancaster "Here is my name and I carry a sniper rifle on my back and a SMG at my side."
Eagle Eye "Er, what do you do? You are a hacker, right?"
Lancaster "I don't tell you that, she knows but not you."
Psykis Monro "Maybe he will tell you later once he gets to trust you better."
Eagle Eye "Ok, guess I will just put down sniper then..."
Lancaster "Well, what do I call you?"
Eagle Eye "Hmm, well what would you know... Would you know my name from my commlink? Just call me Eagle Eye."
Lancaster "I'm not going to say all that."
Eagle Eye "Eagle then? Er, how about Jack then?"
GM "Alright, we don't have a Face? A Mr J contacts whoever has the highest Charisma score."
Lancaster "That would be me, I have 5."
GM "He asks you to meet at Jerry's Bar or a place of your choice. Jerry is a bartender who knows quite a few people."
Psykis Monro "Set up the meet at a time that gives us time to check the place out. What time does the place open?"
GM "9 PM"
Lancaster "I send him a message back saying we will meet him at 10. I don't have a ride, Psykis, can two fit on your chopper?"
Psykis Monro "I don't see anything on it in the BBB, but if it is ok with <GM>"
Eagle Eye "Would make sense."
GM "Yeah, its fine."
Psykis Monro "Why don't you scout the bar Eagle Eye?"
Eagle Eye "Sure. I'll go to arrive there at 8, drive past and park down the street, lock my bike, and try to look like I am window shopping, blend in with the crowd, for a once around the bar to see the different ways in and out of the bar, then sit down at a cafe or something to watch the entrance to the bar with my vision magnification to figure out who the customers are and what kind of security they have."

Well, this is getting kinda long in this format, so lets see if I can summarize it up a bit: I send details and snap images with my contacts and send them on to Psykis since apparently Lancaster didn't give me his number. I enter the bar when it opens and sit in a dark corner to watch the entrance and the bar, order a drink and settle in. Psykis and Lancaster arrive right at the time for the meet and park outside. The Mr. J arrives with bodyguards, I snap images of them but stay where I am trying to stay unseen but watching for trouble. Lancaster is rude to the Mr J, with Psykis kicking him under the table, GM lets it slide by having the Mr J compliment him on being direct. Lancaster even asks the Mr J what corp he is. We get a 50 000 Y job (there were supposed to be more players that game night but they were no shows) to investigate what a rival corp's research in cyberware is up to at a specific location and it doesn't have to be quiet. Mr J and his entourage leave, with Lancaster and Psykis soon after. I don't get up and follow, just going to remain where I am for like 5 minutes first. A local gang, Blood Angels who I had identified earlier, is surrounding Psykis' chopper (bike) and tries to intimidate them because they did business on their territory without paying a fee. Even though I have the highest Initiative, I don't move because I don't know this is going on. Psykis texts me and pulls out her piece to intimidate them back. Lancaster pulls out his SMG and fires a point blank burst into the face for the group of gangsters and then immediately gets pummeled by bats, getting knocked down and nearly out, when it is their turn to go. During this whole thing, I am having to point out to our GM and the rest of group the rules from the BBB for combat (later GM admits to me he only played SR once before, he just wanted to try it out.), they don't seem to mind at first because we are all new to SR but later this seems to draw complaints about SR having contradictions and some rolling of the eyes towards me (that or I am just paranoid on top of being socially awkward). I kinda figure I have to do this or my character gets hooped on what basicly makes him special ... surprise, surprise when it is my turn and start tossing all my pistol dice, Lancaster claims my character is broken or some such and when figuring dice pool modifiers I get hit with the -3 attacker in melee modifier instead of the -2 target having partial cover because my partners in crime and grime are in melee. As a side note, Lancaster is our gaming groups DM for D&D, so I can't help but wonder if that might be effecting this game, especially with the ruling regarding ranged firing at target a party member is engaged in melee with. Still, despite that I take out the gangers quickly and we split. Not so much as a thanks, it gets even better - after arriving back at Psykis' facility, I suggest we should have a Hacker *hint hint Lancaster* take care of our data trail so we don't take heat for the incident with the gangers ... to which he suggests that is a good idea and proceeds to do jack all while healing for 4 days from all his injuries in the fight that he started. So I have to bug my Contact and spend nuyen to cover our asses. So he messages the Mr J and accepts the job for us. Psykis and I get down to scouting the target and sharing notes, trying to formulate a plan. Lancaster tries to dig up info on our Mr J ... which is a false lead going no where, since the Mr J was obviously not telling the truth about what corp he was from. So we go in at night and when confronted with a electronics problem, aka locked door, Lancaster does nothing until Psykis covers for him by sending me away to check the perimeter of the building for another way in ... probably would have not been that suspicious if I had actually got to check the whole perimeter but seconds later I get called back by Psykis and when asked for a explaination I get told "Oh, we said we could muddle through it" - which gets a raised eyebrow from moi because why not muddle through it that fast in front of me instead of sending me off alone? Next, the first room we search ends up being the room where the corp guards take their breaks - so Lancaster hacks into their stereo and plays them opera at full blast. Even though my character wouldn't have a clue why the music was suddenly blaring, though he has his suspicions by this point (you can see when someone kinda tunes out to hack on the matrix, right?) Eagle Eye Jack tries to take advantage of the guards being distracted and discovers something I wish I had figured out before:

The dice pool is split on dual wielding before applying dice pool modifiers, effectively doubling penalties while taking away the only bonus from the smartgun/smartlink system. Now I gotta ask, why would anyone ever dual wield? Ugh, now I feel like I gimped my character build because the game mechanics don't exactly fit the gun fu action movie character thing I had in mind now.

Still, back to the story, we prevail against 3 guards with pistols and armor (vests?) but now an apparently not silent alarm has gone off in the corp building. And even though part of the reason we prevailed was because I have 3 Initiative Passes, high Initiative - this seems to piss the others off because they have only 1 Initiative Pass and smaller dice pools for their shooting. Basicly it seems like the others get bored while I take all these semi-auto shots and dodge bullets.

I think I figured out what I can do for that, I am only going to have one pistol out now, only switching pistols to switch ammo types and rather than reloading, and I need to remember to use up my Initiative Passes with the Take Aim simple action and then blow it all with a called shot to bypass armor taking that penalty.

Despite all that, I still had a lot of fun playing my first SR session, which I have wanted to do for a long time and thanked the GM and Psykis ... Lancaster had already left Psykis' place at that point, he had work the next day and needed to get to bed. Lancaster's player isn't that bad a guy, just I am seriously considering at this point my character might pull a pistol on him and slot 'im for jerking him around while on a job, where it could get him killed not being aware of his team's capabilities, and especially if he doesn't get his fair share of the 50 000 - if we even complete this job with him throwing all these wrenches in the plans of Psykis and I, while not providing intel on the task at hand to get the job down and improve our planning.

If anyone has any suggestions or advice on how I could improve the SR experience or even just how I could get my character out of this drek, I would be very grateful for it.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... the beginning of your first session sounded a bit heartless, but oh well *g*. You guys will grow on it. And for the time you need to look up rules and explain: After a while you know what to do. (I know in our first session (ten years ago) we had no idea how autofire worked... so we had a troll with a LMG, shooting one shot at a time at 7S damage, wondering why it doesn't do as much damage as an heavy pistol *g*) It will get much faster after a while. Then they won't be bored when you hog the IP's. Also: they shouldn't complain about you having the spotlight in combat. They could have (and still can) taken some Cyberware or drugs or whatever to keep up (hehe).

For your questions: Dual wielding: because it is cool... although if the foes dodges (and is good) you can take multiple attacks to diminsh his dodgepool (Every time he dodges an attack, the next time he dodges with -1 die... so he has to dodge your forth attack with -3 dice) If he doesn't dodge (And he couldn't keep doing it to you, since you have so many actions, if he has not as much) You can maximize your damage with that. (Depending on diepool) If you are very sure to hit, even if you split your pool... and the enemy has no hardened armor, or absorbs damage, 4 medium damage attacks are better than 2 with slightly less than double the damage. (Maybe you even want them to be many small stun-wounds, instead of blowing his head off?)

Dual wielding is also fun if you have two single-shot weapons. one simple action to shoot the left, then a simple to shoot the right. Both with full dice.

Also 50k for a job is a VERY generous offer.

That Lancaster guy... just ask the player if he wants him to be that way. and doing the things he does... or maybe he just had a different idea of the tone, style and setting of the world. I know some rounds where he would've been right in the middle and nobody would have blinked an eye at his behaviour. Others... not so much. Just talk to him about how you and the others want to play, ask him about his style and try to find a compromise. (Yes you can shoot him in the head, if the guy just likes to overreact and endanger all of your team *g*)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Thank you for the comments and advice Summerstorm.

Lancaster I think might just be a case of play style, like he might be better suited as a cybered up street samuria but I think he either went hacker on the advice of the GM or that it is probably the closest archetype that fits some of what he does IRL - most of the people who play D&D and now SR seem to know each other from Comp Sci Degree courses, I think. I came into the group as a known interested gaming hobbyist through Psykis, who is a really nice lady I have known since late high school.

Also, I think the playstyle is also influenced by DM'ing for D&D for quite a long time and being bored with it. So maybe a more kick down the door, blow up the building approach than the stealthy approach Psykis and I might prefer. It isn't just me who senses that players who have DM'ed tend to have a bit of a sadistic slant when it comes to having fun, right? Also, that D&D influence might not quite have given him the sense of trying to keep his character alive, of his player's characters for D&D none are ones that have been there since level 1 but rather new drawn up characters - TPK is a phrase that seems to roll easily off his lips. Where as early on in my recent experiences with D&D, I have a tendency to flee a fight if I think it is going south, in the hopes I might be able to regroup and attack with renewed energy - but that just ended up with my character having "Brave Sir Robin Ran Away" type songs sung about him. Heh, come to think of it, if this was like Monty Python, his character might be John Cleese's character charging that castle with the wedding while those guards talked about it. So now through that kind of approach with the secretive, paranoid setting of Shadowrun? I think this may be the result. Like him looting the guards for their SiN cards after they were down, hmm. Irregardless, I think I will just wait and see what happens with the payout for the job ... I wonder if those guards have cyberware on them. I did grab their electronic key cards from them to get through the rest of the building though but the door to the stairs is controlled by a camera...

Should we have asked for that half up front - half when complete type of thing? Do Mr. J's ever try to stiff the Shadow Runners? I really hope I get a good share, my character is kinda nearly broke and Eagle Eye Jack needs to pay rent...

[Shinobi Killfist]

As your character grows and has karma to spend on your magic rating, I would like to point out the power of powers: Combat Sense.

If they were cheaper I'd totally take things like wall running for the cool factor, but they are a full PP and aren't worth it past the cool factor. Ok I still usually take them, but I know I am gimping myself at the same time. But they are just too damn cool..

[CanadianWolverin...]

As your character grows and has karma to spend on your magic rating, I would like to point out the power of powers: Combat Sense.

If they were cheaper I'd totally take things like wall running for the cool factor, but they are a full PP and aren't worth it past the cool factor. Ok I still usually take them, but I know I am gimping myself at the same time. But they are just too damn cool..

What is up with the Combat Sense? My impression of it by the description seemed to suggest it was very limited in scope to just surprise ... but upon re-reading it just now I feel a bit silly ditching it. Its funny how many different things I suddenly realize mean something else than what my first read through gave me. Negative Qualities, Dual Wield Pistols, and now this - Reading Comprehension 101. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Aaron]

I'm a big fan of Combat Sense, although a fellow at Origins pointed out that Mystic Armor isn't as limited as I had thought. Sure, CS lets you completely avoid the effects of an attack, but it's not useful when you don't get a defense roll, as with explosives or when surprised (which it does help mitigate, but ambushes are +6!). So I see the allure of Mystic Armor v. Combat Sense, but for my money it'll still be CS.

[Stahlseele]

Take some of both, if you have the points left.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Take some of both, if you have the points left.

Those are very nice, the Combat Sense and Mystic Armor. My Power Points disappeared with Improved Reflexes pretty fast though. The table for Improved Reflexes Cost is kinda odd though when compare it to the example of the Gunslinger Adept, since the cost goes 2/3/5 at first glance I thought it meant 2+3+5 but then the Gunslinger Adept should have only had Improved Reflexes, but rather it has some left over for things like Combat Sense, so I then took the costs to actually mean 2+1(3)+2(5). If I am correct, if I want that last (4th) Initiative Pass, I need to get to 7 Magic.

Looks like I am going to have to wait for 18 karma to improve the magic attribute, unless there is another way to gain Power Points.

Is it hard to Initiate for the higher than 6 Magic? Looks like it takes a ton of karma and if I am reading it right goes up to a maximum of 12 from 6 grades. But who would ever have that much karma to spend? Hoo boy...

I was actually thinking I was going to use any karma I get to generalize rather than further specialize, so buy things like a new active skill or try to bump up my willpower/logic or something else that is defaulting or really low. Right now I am kinda feeling bummed I couldn't get into a building without setting off any alarms, so I think there is some active skill there I could take for that.

Other Adept Powers I would consider would be all the ones that cost the least so as to get the most out of my 1 Power Point from the 18 Karma for the 6 in Magic Attribute, like these for 0.25 PP: Attribute Boost, Enhanced Perception, Improved Ability, Improved Sense, and Rapid Healing.