Martial Arts Question, Firefight in SR4 Options

[Shamrock]

Just a few questions that ended up repeatedly coming up a few times in a game I ran yesterday. Played SR3 for a while, new to SR4.

One of my players created a Gunslinger Adept heavily influenced by the movie 'Equilibrium'. He uses machine pistols for everything.

He took the Martial Arts Quality based around "Fire Fight". In Arsenal, one of the advantages to Fire Fight was lowering the penalty for Ranged Attacking in Melee. Now the questions begin.

1.) Does this mean firing into someone else's melee? Or does this mean you are attacking from a melee range.

2.) if the answer to #1 is attacking with a gun at melee range, is this considered a melee attack for purposes of determining "Friends in Melee", or does it not add +1 to the ally's dice pool?

3.) When attacking with two guns simultaneously from a range, does it still bestow a -1 penalty on the defender as it would when being attacked with two melee weapons?


The way I arbitrated it is you are able to fire in melee range for purposes of the advantage, but it didn't count toward friend in melee because you are not using a melee weapon. I also never found anywhere in the two ranged weapon rules that it caused a defender penalty for two shots simultaneously as opposed to two melee weapons...


Thanks in advance!

[Dragnar]

1) There is a specific penalty for using ranged weapons while you are in melee combat range of an enemy. That's the mod firefight allows you to ignore.

2) Using firearms is always ranged combat, even at melee range, so the ranged combat rules apply, not the close combat rules. Which means, there is no "Friends in Melee" mod, as that one is for close combat only.

3) Attacking with two firearms thusly never bestows a penalty from using two melee weapons, as that's a close combat rule as well, which doesn't apply. Usually you fire at your enemies more often, though, which reduces your targets dodge pool usually (by one die for every attack after the first).

[CanadianWolverin...]

Just wanted to say Equilibrium is a awesome movie and is one of my inspirations for my Gunslinger Adept as well.

You know that scene in Wanted where the main character fights the knife guy with his two pistols? How do you think that would play out in SR4? Can a character use a melee weapon to slice/deflect bullets like is sometimes shown in fun (see: silly) action movies?

[Cain]

3) Attacking with two firearms thusly never bestows a penalty from using two melee weapons, as that's a close combat rule as well, which doesn't apply. Usually you fire at your enemies more often, though, which reduces your targets dodge pool usually (by one die for every attack after the first).

Untrue. You can always use the guns as clubs, and be eligible for the two-weapon fighting benefit.

Can a character use a melee weapon to slice/deflect bullets like is sometimes shown in fun (see: silly) action movies?

Technically, no. However, if you want to have an adept with ridiculous amounts of Combat Sense geased to a sword, you could have "slicing the bullet" as a special effect.

[Doc Chaos]

Just wanted to say Equilibrium is a awesome movie and is one of my inspirations for my Gunslinger Adept as well.

You know that scene in Wanted where the main character fights the knife guy with his two pistols? How do you think that would play out in SR4? Can a character use a melee weapon to slice/deflect bullets like is sometimes shown in fun (see: silly) action movies?

A juiced up Streetsam can run 10 meters per second. A bullet, depending on the weapon used, travels at a few to many hundred meters per second. Do the math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

A juiced up Streetsam can run 10 meters per second. A bullet, depending on the weapon used, travels at a few to many hundred meters per second. Do the math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I always thought that looked silly in the action movies, guy swings his swords in front of himself and deflects auto fire coming his direction (see: Wade Wilson aka Deadpool in that Xmen Origins Wolverine movie) but I did see a Mythbusters episode recently that while exploring a story about a flintlock rifle lead projectile being split with a double bladed axe to hit two targets as plausible, though I am pretty sure that is a much different situation than our fictional uber ammunition and projectile delivery systems. Still, we do get to use that Reaction or Reaction + Dodge for Ranged Combat, so its not like this game is really based in reality in any way shape or form, just for fun anyways.

Love your signature BTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Untrue. You can always use the guns as clubs, and be eligible for the two-weapon fighting benefit.

Hmm, guns as clubs, please tell me more! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) What page in my SR4 can I read up on that? I would love to do some of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am really getting the impression that a melee centric character in SR4 would have a hard time, that whole bringing a knife to gun fight saying comes to mind.

[Doc Chaos]

I always thought that looked silly in the action movies, guy swings his swords in front of himself and deflects auto fire coming his direction (see: Wade Wilson aka Deadpool in that Xmen Origins Wolverine movie) but I did see a Mythbusters episode recently that while exploring a story about a flintlock rifle lead projectile being split with a double bladed axe to hit two targets as plausible, though I am pretty sure that is a much different situation than our fictional uber ammunition and projectile delivery systems. Still, we do get to use that Reaction or Reaction + Dodge for Ranged Combat, so its not like this game is really based in reality in any way shape or form, just for fun anyways.

Well, there is a big difference between "trying to not get shot" (spinning, dodging, droping flat on the floor, sprinting and suddenly changing direction) and "trying to hit a 1cm piece of metal which travels with a speed of 600 meters per second (this making it faster than the sound of it being fired!) with the 4mm edge of my blade" in my opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Love your signature BTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) One day I will start to charge people 10 bucks for asking what number 2 is. I'll spend my life evening rich, fat and happy ;D

[crash2029]

After thinking about dodging ranged fire for some time I came to the conclusion that what you are dodging is the shooter not the shot.

[Meatbag]

I did see a Mythbusters episode recently that while exploring a story about a flintlock rifle lead projectile being split with a double bladed axe to hit two targets as plausible, though I am pretty sure that is a much different situation than our fictional uber ammunition and projectile delivery systems.

I am really getting the impression that a melee centric character in SR4 would have a hard time, that whole bringing a knife to gun fight saying comes to mind.

1: That has little to do with the weapons (swords have likely gotten better as well) and everything to do with the people holding them. Bullets are made of relatively soft metals, and you can certainly cut them in half with a sword. the problem is:

Moving the blade fast enough to meet a bullet with the edge.

Holding the blade after it's absorbed that kind of force.

Actually deflecting it away from your fleshy bits - there's a good chance you'll just get shot with two half-bullets.

2: Terrain becomes a factor, quickly. In an infinite, flat plain? The gunbunny wins, but keep in mind that most fights in SR take place indoors or in thickly urban sprawls, well within Street Sam sprinting range.

[Critias]

If someone wants to desribe their uber-blade-Adept guy's successfull Reaction-plus-whatever Defense Test as "cutting the bullet," and allowing it to be described that way doesn't break the feel of your game, what's it hurt? It all comes down to the level of realism vs. magic vs. crime-noir vs. rule-of-cool that's going on in your game.

As far as guns as clubs, check out Arsenal's melee weapons section. There's all kinds of stuff in there that got statted up (from pool cues to sledgehammers), and I'm pretty sure that's where rifle butts and pistol-whipping was statted up, too. Uses Clubs, I'm pretty sure (and seems to me like "pistols" would be a reasonable specialization). There's even a Melee Hardening option for firearms, there in Arsenal somewhere.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I see the positioning of the sword to hit a bullet in the air not to be a problem of the sword meeting the bullet, but placing the sword in the trajectory of the barrel of the gun. I bet it could be done if someone knew firearms and placement/aiming of a barrel enough that they could look down the other end and know where the bullet was going to go. Then it's just a matter of placing the sword there (quick mind you). Real Life? Not a chance. In Shadowrun? With enough points in combat sense as how it's described? Makes lots of sense. I always thought part of the reason the ability to dodge came easier to an adept with combat sense had to deal with their awareness of their surroundings and placement/aim of things that could hurt them. This gave them the ability to move out of those lines of fire (like that scene in Ultraviolet when Milla Jovovich is dodging all of the bullets on the roof and using their lines of fire to put her opponents in harms way). It's not too much of a jump to believe if they had an equally high sword skill they could slice bullets out of the air. The only problem would be the impending spray of shrapnel one would be hit with afterward.

[Cain]

If someone wants to desribe their uber-blade-Adept guy's successfull Reaction-plus-whatever Defense Test as "cutting the bullet," and allowing it to be described that way doesn't break the feel of your game, what's it hurt? It all comes down to the level of realism vs. magic vs. crime-noir vs. rule-of-cool that's going on in your game.

Technically, if he scores a critical success, he can describe it however he likes and to hell with the level of realism.