TMs and Hacking, Do you REALLY need a physically present hacker? Options

[The Jake]

Hi all

I understand there is some intense debate about the usefulness of hackers and wanting to have a hacker physically present on the run.

I'm just curious - how many people honestly think it is absolutely critical to have a hacker physically present with the team on a job?

I'm not saying I don't think it isn't important, only that you can get by just fine without them.

My experiences in past editions was that it was possible. In SR4, I haven't tried it and with my players, they have an AI e-ghost who is almost never present physically.

I'd be very interested in hearing from the experiences of others - players and GMs alike.

Thanks in advance,

- J.

PS: I'm hoping to get a chance to play in SR some stage soon (as opposed to running it) and if so, I'd like to play a technomancer, ideally one that never does physical meets. Hence this thread.

[CodeBreaker]

Depends on the job really, and the resources. Sometimes I can get about fine sitting in my new awesome Garage/Apartment that gives me all my bonuses. Other times we know that there is going to be annoying Faraday Cages and the like and I am really needed to be present. And even on those occasions it is possible to get around it with the cunning use of fibreoptic cable and repeater drones.

So I would say yes, it is perfectly possible for a Hacker to stay offsite the entire time. But you will sometimes get into some bother because of it and you should always have a backup plan in the form of repeaters. Drones make the whole thing more possible (Plus I like to have a little crawler droid that has a holographic display thingy built into it so I can have a semi-physical presence during meets)

[Wasabi]

My current GM uses a lot of fiberoptics on independant networks and security systems writing to VCR-style record-only chip recorders without a circuit to erase. The fiberlines are usually cemented into the structure and lead off site to a 24H monitored firm and if you are able to intrude and are detected they often power down the server using a physical off switch.

So I usually play Sammies instead of my fave, the TM's.

Can you get along without a hacker present? If you need whats on a computer and cant get the computer "To go" or arrange a signal intrusion via mesh tags or drone relaying then yeah, you need someone on the inside.

[Shinobi Killfist]

As Wasabi is pointing out, it is sort of dependent on the GM to make that determination. Talk with the GM first let him or her know your idea for a character and see if he thinks it is viable for his campaign.

As a general rule though I think the decker can be off site on the lower end runs. The more secure the facility the less likely it will allow wireless access and the harder it will be to pull off drone repeaters and other end arounds.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My current GM uses a lot of fiberoptics on independant networks and security systems writing to VCR-style record-only chip recorders without a circuit to erase. The fiberlines are usually cemented into the structure and lead off site to a 24H monitored firm and if you are able to intrude and are detected they often power down the server using a physical off switch.

So I usually play Sammies instead of my fave, the TM's.

Can you get along without a hacker present? If you need whats on a computer and cant get the computer "To go" or arrange a signal intrusion via mesh tags or drone relaying then yeah, you need someone on the inside.

Or put more simply... Sometimes yes, you can get away with never being on site... other times, you do need to be on site... it all depends upon the target...

[The Jake]

I don't dispute you often need someone on the inside. My question is why must it be a 'hacker' as opposed to a 'street samurai with MBW and a Hardware skillsoft that knows how to string together some cable and hook up a relay'?

- J.

[BlackJaw]

It depends heavily on your Gamemaster and the run. Some can be done without being present at all, while others the GM might be fine with the hacker not be present, and still others the hacker may as well sleep through the run for all the use they will be... and still other Gamemasters, like the ones that rotate through the game I play in, prefer to have the hacker at least near by on the run, and sometimes force us to go along.

Examples I often run into:
Signal Blocking wallpaper buildings. Our GMs love these tings. Mesh built into the wall paper and windows is a common one for any high scale establishment (to prevent AR spam from ruining the enviroment inside), not just high security ones.The diffrence here is that if you can get a singal inside, it doesn't tend to freak anyone out, it just requires some work to get through to the inner area. It's easy enough to get around by finding a weak point and sticking in some directional antennas, drilling a hole in through the wall/paper, sending in tapper drones, or clipping into a cable on the roof/sublevel/etc... but that's a lot of work (and sometimes risk) just to let the hacker sit at home, and the rest of the party won't often go ahead with such a plan unless they think it's safer to leave the often VR immersed hacker at home (or in the car) instead dragging him along on the run.
High Security buildings. Sometimes we get sent into buildings with real farday cages built into the walls, or underground complexes, etc. These require more work to get a singal inside, and even then having a strong signal bouncing through the building might get us detected because it's often looked for. If, once inside, the sysem that really needs to get hacked isn't even on Wifi... well now you got your adepts and street samis trying to uncoil cable, align lasers, and protect repeater drones through high security building in order to plug something into a terminal so I can hack it from home. Again, the rest of the group would rather drag me through the building then try and arrange for all of the above.
Off-grid zones. I've been sent out into the barrens, out into the woods, through a sewer system, up a mountain, under the sea, and to a half dozen other places that don't have a good signal. My hacker has a satelite uplink, but our GMs enforce the half-response lag time penalty for using the small portable kinds and the result is I'm better off going along. (I still get good use out of the Sat-comm for browse checks and the like when I'm out in these places, or for sending commands to distant drones/systems where the slight lag isn't an issue.) Sometimes we end up on runs where there isn't much to hack (like a run into Bug City) and on those the best I can do is be present and provide an extra gun, control some drones, and keep the the tacnet bonuses flowing.
Jamming. Sometimes we end up setting off an alarm of some kind, and the next thing you know we're being jammed. At those times I kind of need to be present to do much of anything.

Of course if the group has no hacker at all, the GM can gloss over such details most of the time. Similarly if the GM doesn't mind the hacker being remote, they don't have to make things so difficult. I have to say that the GMs I play with like to give me something worth hacking on runs, but they have plenty of ways of making systems secure enough I can't get away with too much unless I'm present or I convince the rest of the party to do some B&E to plant repeaters and links.

By the way, running an AI character means your hacker can be present (on another player's computer or in a drone) without having to be a VR focused non-corpse to be dragged around by the rest of the group. It's a similar trick to just having the Hacker ride along in drone wheelchair so they can be there without being immoblized. I spent most of one run on a Cyclopse Monocycle for example.

EDIT:

I don't dispute you often need someone on the inside. My question is why must it be a 'hacker' as opposed to a 'street samurai with MBW and a Hardware skillsoft that knows how to string together some cable and hook up a relay'?

Running a relay isn't always the best or easiest option. Many guards will notice an optical cable being run through their building. Some Spiders will notice strange encrypted comm channels, and hiding laser links through high security doorways is often hard. It can be done, and I've heard some hackers prefer to do it themselves via a drone that travels with the group (rather then a street sami doing it for you) but sometimes it goes wrong and then your left with no way to make the hack as you're miles a way while your team is on their own.

As for a well equipped Sami with skillwire... well just give him a good commlink, load it with programs, and have him run hacking skillsofts and he might be able to do the hack on his own. Hacking isn't linked to the Logic atribute in use, so if he is skill(wire)ed with good programs he might just double as the party hacker. He won't be as good as a dedicated one with all the crazy hacker headware (simboosters, nanites, encaphalon II, etc) but he is viable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't dispute you often need someone on the inside. My question is why must it be a 'hacker' as opposed to a 'street samurai with MBW and a Hardware skillsoft that knows how to string together some cable and hook up a relay'?

- J.

It definitely Could be an option...
But would you be willing to stake the entire outcome of the run on the Street Sam's capabilities though?

[pbangarth]

It definitely Could be an option...
But would you be willing to stake the entire outcome of the run on the Street Sam's capabilities though?

This looks like the kind of teamwork that works best when set up at character generation (ie. some cooperative min-maxing). The hacker (or TM), if she isn't going to go along, doesn't need the backup gun skills, infiltration, etc., and can concentrate on Matrix abilities. The rest of the team needs at least one person who has good hardware skills (or softs) to be reasonably sure of succeeding in setting up the link.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This looks like the kind of teamwork that works best when set up at character generation (ie. some cooperative min-maxing). The hacker (or TM), if she isn't going to go along, doesn't need the backup gun skills, infiltration, etc., and can concentrate on Matrix abilities. The rest of the team needs at least one person who has good hardware skills (or softs) to be reasonably sure of succeeding in setting up the link.

Yes, This does definitely help... thoguh I would say that here will still be times that it will be better for the Hacker to be on site than away at a secure home base...

[The Jake]

It definitely Could be an option...
But would you be willing to stake the entire outcome of the run on the Street Sam's capabilities though?

As long as he has the Skillwires Plus (ie. can use Edge)... sure. Botched dice rolls make the game fun for everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Its interesting that with SR4 they've paved for way for hackers to be able to do physical meets. Unfortunately, in doing so, it appears at a glance the system is steered to strongly encouraging (but short of forcing) you to do so. This has a knock-on effect on technomancers who are so strapped for BP that it is almost impossible to come up with one that can cope in this environment. Worse yet, will have to use every scrap of karma and Submersion to picking abilities to allow them just to cope in this situation, rather than select Submersion grades in alignment with how they would prefer to progress their skillset (and focus on building upon their strengths, rather than patching their weaknesses).

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As long as he has the Skillwires Plus (ie. can use Edge)... sure. Botched dice rolls make the game fun for everyone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Its interesting that with SR4 they've paved for way for hackers to be able to do physical meets. Unfortunately, in doing so, it appears at a glance the system is steered to strongly encouraging (but short of forcing) you to do so. This has a knock-on effect on technomancers who are so strapped for BP that it is almost impossible to come up with one that can cope in this environment. Worse yet, will have to use every scrap of karma and Submersion to picking abilities to allow them just to cope in this situation, rather than select Submersion grades in alignment with how they would prefer to progress their skillset (and focus on building upon their strengths, rather than patching their weaknesses).

- J.

Yeah, Perhaps you are right... though I thought that my TM was an okay character... even if he does actually go physical for meets and runs...... and for that matter, so does our teams current TM, though not always...

[The Jake]

Tymeaus, I can put it another way -
I could build a passable TM that might work quite well as a physical presence on a run. He might even prove to be decent in a fight with some karma.
However, that is a very different build to the TM I would make if I wanted to make a stealthy hacker that can slide in and out of systems undetected, raping and pillaging data stores undetected.

This looks like the kind of teamwork that works best when set up at character generation (ie. some cooperative min-maxing). The hacker (or TM), if she isn't going to go along, doesn't need the backup gun skills, infiltration, etc., and can concentrate on Matrix abilities. The rest of the team needs at least one person who has good hardware skills (or softs) to be reasonably sure of succeeding in setting up the link.

This is it, if you're all building characters together at chargen, it is probably not an issue. If however you're coming into an existing group fresh, you could have some problems - although if that is the case, you can always hope they already have some way of dealing with some of these deficiencies.

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, I can put it another way -
I could build a passable TM that might work quite well as a physical presence on a run. He might even prove to be decent in a fight with some karma.
However, that is a very different build to the TM I would make if I wanted to make a stealthy hacker that can slide in and out of systems undetected, raping and pillaging data stores undetected.

- J.

No doubt about that... I just don't think that the two have to be mutually exclusive options...

[The Jake]

No doubt about that... I just don't think that the two have to be mutually exclusive options...

True but I don't like the idea of having to wait until I've a rating 6 Submersion grade to get all the abilities I want either... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True but I don't like the idea of having to wait until I've a rating 6 Submersion grade to get all the abilities I want either... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

- J.

Also Very True... but then again, I also subscribe to the theory that you can be competent with 10-12 Dice in your Dice Pools... Not everyone on DS does... Personal Preference, I know, But there it is...

Keep the Faith...

[The Jake]

Also Very True... but then again, I also subscribe to the theory that you can be competent with 10-12 Dice in your Dice Pools... Not everyone on DS does... Personal Preference, I know, But there it is...

Keep the Faith...

If I wanted to be competent I'd make a combat hacker with cyberware up the yin-yang and I'd kickass in a gunfight.

If I want to build a specialist, I'll go a TM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My view is that out of the gate, SR4 chargen punishes generalists.

- J.

[crizh]

For intrusions into high security facilities I definitely think that the idea of a big team is stupid.

One member of most SR teams is an intrusion specialist who with a bit of help from the Mage can get into almost anywhere undetected. Every other member of the team that he must take with him is a liability. Regardless of whether it is the bumbling TM or the Mage the B&E specialist does not want their clumsy ass within ten miles of him.

My Stealth Adept would far prefer to lay a bit of fibre or install a few disguised Laser Links than get shot because the guards heard the Cleric crashing about in full plate.... .... sorry the physically inept TM walking into doors and stuff.

A well designed drone is potentially even better than the intrusion adept because it fits in smaller spaces.

Which just gave me a great idea for a Pixie....

[Meatbag]

I don't dispute you often need someone on the inside. My question is why must it be a 'hacker' as opposed to a 'street samurai with MBW and a Hardware skillsoft that knows how to string together some cable and hook up a relay'?

- J.

Just thought I'd pop in to remind folks that Activesofts are Rating x 10,000Y now.

When was the last time you saw a street samurai with 10-40k laying around?*

*No, the brief period between completing the run and finding a cyberclinic doesn't count.

[DWC]

Just thought I'd pop in to remind folks that Activesofts are Rating x 10,000Y now.

When was the last time you saw a street samurai with 10-40k laying around?*

*No, the brief period between completing the run and finding a cyberclinic doesn't count.

And pirated Activesofts are 1 to 4 grand, decay a rating point every other month, and have ratings and availability low enough that your hacker can find a pirated one and download it to your skillwires faster than you can say "Tank, I need a pilot program...", which keeps the cost basically trivial. If you've got multiple people with skillwires in your group, the return on investment on pirated Activesofts goes even further through the roof.

[Byron]

1. For the most part, yes, I've found, as a hacker, being on site is not strictly nessacary, there are ways to bounce into most systems provided they aren't completely wired. In those cases there are ways, using drones and infiltration tools even then, it's possible.
2. While being on site isn't always NESSACARY, often it can really speed things up because each of those interlays, drones, and cables makes you more vulnerable to something going wrong, and can be a b**** to set up, in high-risk and time sensitive scenarios, its generally best to come along.
3. With me, I generalyl just hack from a mobile base, my GMC step van with an enchanced rigger cocoon. I can go to get in signal range of anything because I'm mobile, but I'm extremely well protected wearing an armored coat in an armored cocoon in an armored van. But, worst comes to worst, I can be out of there and on site, worst case scario, a few minutes, if I parked close, a few combat rounds. It's never failed me so far.
4. It's also good to be on site because a shadowrun characters can be versitile. for example, I'm on site in my van most of the time because, I AM a hacker, but I also put a couple bp into some drones so I can really help out in a firefight as well, a few drones for rotodrones and doberman with machine guns will be very well spent.

[Jaid]

with PMVs, a technomancer or VR hacker can actually be ok in physical intrusions. provided, of course, we're talking about sneaking into a secured facility kind of intrusions; a social-based intrusion might be a bit tricky (but then again, there's always the wheelchair one)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If I wanted to be competent I'd make a combat hacker with cyberware up the yin-yang and I'd kickass in a gunfight.

If I want to build a specialist, I'll go a TM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Tis True...

My view is that out of the gate, SR4 chargen punishes generalists.

- J.

I don't necessarily agree here, but that is okay... I will say that it definitely can be difficult to create highly competent generalists, if by competant the definition is that I should have 12-20 dice in all of my generalist skills...

No worries though... it is all good...

[DuctShuiTengu]

Whether you actually need to be on-site or not is going to vary from one run to the next, and depend some on the rest of the team. If you can reliably get into the facility from off-site, that's usually a better option.

That said, never hack from home. Sure, the right lifestyle qualities can get you some extra bonus dice on your hacking attempt. But if you get successfully traced (not a huge risk, but still present), they've got your location down to what you hope is still a few blocks radius around your home (a field that's likely to get narrower as more successful attempts to trace you occur). On the other hand, a nanopaste disguise, a spoofed ID, and a cheap soycaf at the Starbucks across town means that even if you get traced, at worst, it means you need to finish your drink in the car on the way home so you're not still there if they send in a response team. Anything beyond that requires someone at MegaCorp Inc coming up with a really compelling reason why tracking all of the dozens or hundreds of people who were there to find which one hacked their facility is a good use of money.

[BlackJaw]

That said, never hack from home. Sure, the right lifestyle qualities can get you some extra bonus dice on your hacking attempt. But if you get successfully traced (not a huge risk, but still present), they've got your location down to what you hope is still a few blocks radius around your home (a field that's likely to get narrower as more successful attempts to trace you occur). On the other hand, a nanopaste disguise, a spoofed ID, and a cheap soycaf at the Starbucks across town means that even if you get traced, at worst, it means you need to finish your drink in the car on the way home so you're not still there if they send in a response team. Anything beyond that requires someone at MegaCorp Inc coming up with a really compelling reason why tracking all of the dozens or hundreds of people who were there to find which one hacked their facility is a good use of money.

Dead on.

I also like hacking from a moving vehicle who's ID you spoofed before you started (gridlink override, morphing plates, and chameleon coating helps too, if your as paranoid as my hackers.)