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Machiavelli
post Jun 23 2009, 08:56 AM
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After several years of playing SR, I expect to see t least a small rise in the quality and the pretention of our game. I can only speak for myself, but i see that i´m tired of low-budget runs or simple "kill person X, steal container Y, catch critter Z"-contracts. I just ran them too often and i´m hungry for something more high-grade. But unfortunately our game isn´t improving, even if we plan do do something else, somehow it always ends in a firefight with a lot of blood and guts, meetings in drinking holes etc.

Do you also experience such an stop in development, do you still like the game this way or did you manage to jump on a higher grade of playing the game, maybe that single-characters chose to play something else outside the standard business (fixer, weaponsmith, talismonger etc.)?
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Critias
post Jun 23 2009, 10:26 AM
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What does the quality of your roleplaying have to do with the type of jobs you're given?
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Bob Lord of Evil
post Jun 23 2009, 10:26 AM
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Author edited because he realized that he was just standing in a room full of gasoline trying to get his lighter to work.
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Fuchs
post Jun 23 2009, 10:44 AM
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Nothing prevents you from switching the game to another level, away from gutter trash scraping the bottom of the barrel for the next hit of their drug of choice.
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Grinder
post Jun 23 2009, 10:53 AM
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True, but as Critias already said: where's the connection between the power level of your campaign, the complexity of jobs you're given and your roleplaying abilities?
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ShadowPavement
post Jun 23 2009, 11:00 AM
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I actually prefer "Advanced Roleplaying 2nd Edition."

But on a serious note, I have to agree with many of the others who have posted, the jobs that you get don't dictate the kind of roleplaying you get out of your players. Or, at least, it shouldn't.

Perhaps you need to work in some REASON for the runs into the game. If the PC's know the "why" they may be more likely to take the run seriously.

For example: the extraction of a person from an asylum may seem like any other extraction and so may be boring. But when the PC's find out by reading that persons psyc file that he has a "dilusion" that he knows who ordered the Nightwraith strike that ended the Eurowars, things suddenley get more interesting. It also happens that the date of the extraction lines up with the visitation of an important forien dignitary from Germany who feels that germany was wronged in the wars and wants restitutions from whomever bombed their country suddenly.

So you haven't actually changed anything about the run. It's still a simple extraction. But now you've given the players some info that puts the ball into their court. They don't have to act on the info and can complete the job and get paid like normal, or they can choose not to turn the guy over, risk their reps, and possibly keep war from breaking out again in Europe. The dessicion is theirs, and I find that when players have to think a little and have options of how to resolve something that you get better RP out of them.

Background on a run, even though the PC's may not find out about it unless they look, can be just as important as the run itself.
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W@geMage
post Jun 23 2009, 11:21 AM
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Don't focus on the runs too much. Focus on the time between them.
What do the characters do in their downtime, do they have hobbies, how are they maintaining/gaining their contacts, what are their long-term goals, etc, ...

Start a new game where the PC's are established or retired runners/fixers that due to circumstances got back in the game.
Make sure they have responsibilities and people/businesses that rely and depend on them. Have them use deniable assets of their own.
Have them play the running game from the other side.

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shuya
post Jun 23 2009, 01:09 PM
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i've never really liked the idea of "shadowrunners" per se, and the way that SR has always conceptualized them as a kind of subculture.

perhaps its because i have a lot of friends who live on "the other side," so to speak, criminals, train hoppers, homeless, drug dealers, all manner of people who, unlike probably most DFers, aren't burdened by having the "Day Job" negative quality, as it were.

when you are SINless, your whole existence is illegal. everything you do, pretty much. and it shouldn't be EASY to live like that.

which is not to say that breaking into secure corporate research facilities is easy, of course, but who the HELL actually would want to do that every week as a living? especially when you can knock over a gang, steal their drugs, and sell them yourself, with way LESS risk than you'd have from pulling extractions or datasteals or whatever else has you facing down crazy-ass red samurai all the time and crap.

anyways, rambling aside, solution: don't pay the PCs enough money to keep up their lifestyles from their "regular" runs. this will force them to actually DO something (bitch and whine at the GM, usually) or find their ass out on the street. if they're slaughterfesting their way through most runs, then start hitting up their reps real bad so nobody will hire them. crap like that.

as a GM, it would REALLY help to be very familiar with literary criticism, especially in the CP/SF genre, and to have these ideas and themes influence the way you tell your story. Takayuki Tatsumi is a good one (Full Metal Apache, Robot Ghosts and Wired Dreams), as is Bruce Sterling. despite the first impressions one may get from the trappings of SR (cyberpunk with elves, or d&d with technology), shadowrun has always seemed like it would be better conceptualized as a game of post-cyberpunk dystopian transhumanism

cyberpunk - the street finds its own use for things
shadowrun - the corps find their own use for the street

big philosophical difference, no?
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LynGrey
post Jun 23 2009, 01:29 PM
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Man... i usally find it hard to keep a run on the normal path when i become an expereince Shadowrunner... especially when you start initiating, buying the state of the art chrome, or other stuff that's going to put you under the limelight.

A normal go pick up person A and drag his non-paying tail back here so i can get my money, person A is usally a highly powerful person. But once you start doing some legwork... people, ENEMIES, realize your back on the street and start trying you mess with you. It becomes choas.. by the time you get to the damn person you need to get, the run really isn't worth it.. and you come across the question "should i finish this or should i just go home." And when the GM starts putting out those questions to the runners..now it become a game of tring to SCORE a run, or tring to convince the previous Mr J not to come after you with his goons and then tring to make things right agian and patch up your cred.
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Blade
post Jun 23 2009, 02:23 PM
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Raising the bar is not necessarily what you need. Even if high profile runs can be fun, you don't need to do them to change from the routine. What you need is originality.

You can try changing the setting: L.A, the SOX or the Caribbean will be quite different from the rainy city. You don't even need to go to another city: have your runners infiltrate a campus, and you're in a completely different setting.
You can change the focus or the mood: you're always playing infiltration and combat? Have the runners investigate something, or focus the game on something completely different: what if the IRS comes knocking on the streetsam door asking him where his money comes from? What if one of the face's ex-girlfriends comes back with a vengeance?

Here are some examples the French community found in a brainstorming:

* Survival: The PC are in a hazardous situation, because of the climate (hurricane, tsunami...), some unexpected complication (the place they're in is under attack by terrorists) or both (terrorists attack during a hurricane!)

* The Hunt: The PC are hunting someone or something in a closed environment.

* No Exit: The PC have to meet Mr. Johnson in a place where the exits can be closed (a ship, an island, a place that's getting quarantined...) When they arrive, Mr. Johnson might not be here, might be dead and the exits are closed. It's up to the PC what they are supposed to be doing (or what they should do) in this place they can't exit. The place can be empty or filled with people, the situation might be clear or not...

* The investigation: From the soft detective to the hard boiled one, a game where thinking is more important than shooting people in the face.

* Exploration : A safari, a treasure hunt. It's a good opportunity to get the PC out of their familiar Sprawls.

* Supernatural: Aliens (who might come from another plane rather than another planet) / spirits / strange critters. From the X-Files to Ghostbusters to Horror Movies, put the strangeness back into Shadowrun's magic.

* Glitches : As he sees you, Johnson understands that he just gave the run to the wrong people. The guy you were sent to free has already escaped because he was getting bored. Johnson is a little bit confused and is calling you to ambush yourself at the end-run meet. The daughter you're bringing back to the parents isn't theirs, even if she has the tracer necklace (given by the real daughter who didn't like it)...

* Gang war/riot: A gang war, a full-scale riot... and PCs in the middle.

* Road tripping: This briefcase should get here in two days. Of course, nothing happens as planned. The vehicle crashes, what's inside the briefcase doesn't want to stay in there, and every NPC the PC meet are completely crazy.

* The mole : Your runners are infiltrating an organization. From a criminal syndicate to the local kindergarten.
* Bodyguards: not interesting just because of the mission, but also because of the world the PC will be drawn into (fashion, criminal or political organizations, journalists...)

* In jail: It's not because the runners are behind the bar that the game is over.

* Hunted: For one reason or another, the PCs are hunted by someone or something.

* On defense: The PCs are stranded somewhere and must survive against whatever is attacking them, or they must protect some place from trespassers...

* One run, four teams: Mr Johnson isn't the only one with an interest for the target of the run. The PC discover that nearly every runner in town is looking for the same thing as them.

* Unqualified: "What do you mean 'win the cooking contest'??", "I'm NOT a baby-sitter!", "I know you're not qualified for this, and that exactly why I'm sending you there: nobody will be expecting you to do it."

* That's life: You need a job, but your fixer isn't in the mood for that: since his girlfriend dumped him, he just wants to die. Sure, the streetsam's new girlfriend is cute... but she's a fragging Lone Star Officer! The daily life can be more interesting than some runs.

Hope that helps.
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DireRadiant
post Jun 23 2009, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 23 2009, 03:56 AM) *
But unfortunately our game isn´t improving, even if we plan do do something else, somehow it always ends in a firefight with a lot of blood and guts, meetings in drinking holes etc.


They might like this? It may be what they want? If it wasn't what they wanted would they keep doing it? Is everyone dissatisfied? Are your expectations not being met, or is everyones?
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Machiavelli
post Jun 23 2009, 04:41 PM
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I think they don´t know it better. They are caught in what SR "is basically about" and it is difficult to get out of this circle. Maybe i should have given a better description, but it is not that i don´t like "basic running", but i experienced that i am not satisfied with this home-cooking anymore and that i would prefer to change to an more professional kind of playing.

I give you an example: our group consisted of 2 mages, and 2 sams, the hacker followed as an NPC. Our chars. are all really advanced and we reached a level comparable to an special-ops-unit (e.g. SWAT, SEK etc.).

Some weeks ago one of our players put his mage to retirement and developed an 13-year old ork-adept. He placed his BP quite bad (still playable but you can do a lot better) and is absolutely incapable to keep up with the other characters. Some years ago this wouldn´t have bothered me, but meanwhile i have the opinion that my character wouldn´t run with such greenhorns. It´s not only the behaviour i dislike (uncouth, running around with a hammer and killing most people he should stun, because he takes edge to ensure they are really k.o. while he already has 6 successes, etc.) it is also because he doesn´t has the skills/attributes to match our challenges. For me, he is a very high risk for the team because you cannot depend on him like you could on an more advanced and professional char. But i think you know by yourself how difficult such a situation can be. As long as the GM allows it, he can run with us, but what if i would resign to run with him? Would your GM meet your opinion and create a single-campagne for you or him? Would you simply disallow this char. to play? What are your experiences?
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Warlordtheft
post Jun 23 2009, 04:52 PM
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Are you running the game?

Are you guys using the same PCs or different PCs every session or almost every session (for me, it takes a few sessions to get a good grasp of my PC)?

If you are GMing it, involve contacts more, get them involved. Have NPCs impact the overall story arc. Not necessarily railroad, but open new options for the PCs. Avoid handwaving of contact to PC interactions (don't roll dice to see if the NPCs give you what you want, roleplay to see if the NPC gives you what you want).






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pbangarth
post Jun 23 2009, 04:58 PM
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It's a rare game in which the players' personalities are not in there with the PCs'. For the game to go to a 'higher level', I think the runs have to matter to the PCs, that is to say, to the players. So what matter to the players? Give them something that is worth emoting about, and they will.

Blade, you give a wonderful list of possibilities. It sounds like your gang would be fun to play with.
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Bob Lord of Evil
post Jun 23 2009, 05:31 PM
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Ok...now that I see an example here are my thoughts.

Point one: It seems as if the GM dropped the ball. They should have boosted the BP to roughly match the other characters of the group.

Point two: If the player is running the character how they played their last one I can see the friction. However, if the player has modified their RP to match the background of the new character then you have to give them credit. If the second is the case then I would suggest that your character IC RP out the situation.

Ultimately it sounds as if there are multiple points that are bothering you. The 'hack n slash' play seems to be the more prevalent of your points of contention, which I can understand. My experience, is that is really hard to change especially if everyone (including the GM) else has that mindset. I would say talk to them about it casually and do it as a group so nobody thinks that you are trying to pull something behind their back.

Sometimes you just have to accept it or look for another group if you can't alter the dynamic.

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Critias
post Jun 23 2009, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 23 2009, 11:41 AM) *
Some weeks ago one of our players put his mage to retirement and developed an 13-year old ork-adept. He placed his BP quite bad (still playable but you can do a lot better) and is absolutely incapable to keep up with the other characters. Some years ago this wouldn´t have bothered me, but meanwhile i have the opinion that my character wouldn´t run with such greenhorns. It´s not only the behaviour i dislike (uncouth, running around with a hammer and killing most people he should stun, because he takes edge to ensure they are really k.o. while he already has 6 successes, etc.) it is also because he doesn´t has the skills/attributes to match our challenges. For me, he is a very high risk for the team because you cannot depend on him like you could on an more advanced and professional char. But i think you know by yourself how difficult such a situation can be. As long as the GM allows it, he can run with us, but what if i would resign to run with him? Would your GM meet your opinion and create a single-campagne for you or him? Would you simply disallow this char. to play? What are your experiences?

(1) I'd try to talk to him about it out of character, player to player, and see what his reasoning was to bring in such an inexperienced, unprofessional, character. What was he hoping to gain from it? What were his reasons?

(2) I'd try to take him under my wing in character. Let your older Shadowrunner start to tell the kid to shape up, let him explain to the new, rough around the edges, character why what he's doing is stupid and dangerous, and teach him to be more professional. Maybe this is what he was going for (see #1) in the first place, even.
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Chibu
post Jun 23 2009, 07:08 PM
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I agree with shuya in regards to SR4 being post-cyberpunk. The world hasn't always been such though.

The problem here seems to be with both GM and players. GM needs to have more complex stories, and more backlash if things go awry. One of the ways that our GM once handled this was by "moving the game to Boston". He said that, in Boston, the shadows are alot thinner. The corps "don't hire shadowrunners in Boston", as there is something of a truce there. So, if you hose a run, they'll be more than willing to call in another team to clean up your mess so nothing can lead to them. And by "clean up your mess" I mean "kill you". The first run we were hired for was actually that very thing. A group of runners had hosed a run, Mr. Johnson didn't want anything to possibly lead back to him, so he hired us to take them out. This "run" took alot of planning, and eventually we decided to invite them to a meet, as a Johnson, to get them all together, and then let them have it. Sure, there was a big firefight, but we had planned for it, and they didn't know we were coming.

So, this run shows us a few things that might be of help to you.
#1: We learned that actions have consequences. Screw up and have a big fight in a research facility? You're going to get hosed.

#2: Eventually, the Johnson WILL double-cross you (even though we were the Johnson that did the double-crossing). Be prepared.

#3: The most important point: We came up with a plan to lure the other team in, got contacts, set everything up, and made sure we had backup plans. However, them GM could have easily said "oh they think you're a fake, they say they aren't coming.", and then we would have had to resort to walking around looking for them and getting into a bunch of firefights. The key here, is to let things work when the players take time to plan it out and think about their actions (unless it's really absurd and couldn't possibly work...). That way, there won't be unnecessary combat when you throw something in. If it always ends in combat, it is probably sometimes the fault of the GM (though, definately the players as well).

#4: Even though we planned everything out, and the GM let the plan work (again, this is very important), there was still a hitch in the plan. The Rigger on their team didn't actually come in to the meet. He sent a drone. So, we still had to go find him and take him out (our rigger traced his connection or something... I have no idea, but again the GM let it work). So, you can still throw in a wrench or two, as long as you do it in the right place.


Also, yes, I know that boston isn't the same in SR4. That's not important.


Ok, in regards to characters:

I think that this can definitely be an issue. If all of the characters are specialized in combat, that's what they will end up doing. However, if you start to get some characters that avoid combat, for one reason or another, it will influence the entire group. We're actually having out first fixer in our current campaign, and haven't really had anything else you mentioned. However, we did have a Pacifist Snake Shaman one time, which again, influenced the entire group. In Shadowrun, combat should be a last resort. Try to enforce every character having some kind of skill other than combat (that's not to say you should ignore combat).

The only real difference between our characters and alot of others is that we know their personalities, and have background information for them. Now, I know that there are plenty of other people who do this. Try having players make character who are more geared toward "sticking it to the man" as opposed to "I'm some combat monster developed in the Desert Wars". The motivation of the runners is definately the key to a good game. Sure, some of them will really be doing it just for money. however, some should have other reasons. My last long-term character was an Amazonian trying to get contacts and skills and resources to srart to overthrow Aztlan, not an easy task. They killed his "family" and sure, he was in an Amazonian Special Forces unit, which is why he could fight (he was a physical adept). However, he was interested in the astral (was basically dual natured) so he ended up learning magic theory and conjuring (it was used as a knowledge skill for people who couldn't use it magically) because he was interested in it (and because the group didn't always have a mage, he could only play every other session or so). I could tell you plenty of trories from that campaign about how the GM "let it work", but instead, have a link: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=804280 (the long paragraph).

I went to lunch, and forgot where I was was going with the rest of it... so that will have to do. Hope this helps at all...

EDIT: I started writing this before the last half-dozen posts were up, and then got distracted. I'm not sure if it's relevant after other descriptins have been made... oh well.
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Machiavelli
post Jun 23 2009, 07:31 PM
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I don´t want to solve it by a discussion with the other players. I would prefer to cause changes by role-modeling.^^ If i tell them what bothers me, they would probably change the setting and then it wouldn´t feel like you can influence the game through your play, but your hot-wire to the GM. Do you know what i mean?

In the last run he killed a family father right in front of his 2 little children and his wife, because of the above mentioned reason. It was the second time he did that and he never listens to the other players. It´s a phenomenon with this player and his new created characters. As long as he doesn´t get a feeling for his new char and starts to identify with him, he plays them a little bit suicidal, because he doesn´t care if they survive or not. I tried to be realistic and therefore i told him that he will receive a manabolt at force 10, the next time he does such a stupid thing and endangers the team members. Maybe this will help?^^
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Chibu
post Jun 23 2009, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jun 23 2009, 03:31 PM) *
I tried to be realistic and therefore i told him that he will receive a manabolt at force 10, the next time he does such a stupid thing and endangers the team members. Maybe this will help?^^

Before I got to this part of your post, I was going to suggest "Then shoot the slot next time he tries something like that", but aparently you're already on the ball (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Machiavelli
post Jun 23 2009, 07:43 PM
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Yeah, i´m mean, i know.^^ Actually it would also grant me the "good roleplaying"-point of karma, because i think my black magic sorcerer wouldn´t allow such a comrade (that is constantly risking the groups life) longer than absolutely needed. I should have killed him the first time, but he is going to be GM, too, so it is a little bit dangerous.^^
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Chibu
post Jun 23 2009, 07:46 PM
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Yeah, I usually don't end up killing them either for one reason or another. =( The last time it was becuase the only reason we were playing way because this player was in town visiting, so even though my character would have killed his (three times that session no less). I decided it was bad form since he was the reason we were playing at all...
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Machiavelli
post Jun 23 2009, 07:52 PM
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Ah, ok. ^^ I usually kill them willingly. At the last GM´ing i did, i even kept successes against the players so that i don´t kill them just by luck. I want to make them sweat, but i don´t kill as a GM (except they act stupid) I prefer to stand in front of them when i want to kill somebody, armed and knowing that i´m going to come. If you do something, do it with style.^^
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tete
post Jun 23 2009, 08:39 PM
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How about a run where they have to persuade someone to do something or a run against a natural gas plant (guns are bad news in a place that can go boom)
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Blade
post Jun 23 2009, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 23 2009, 06:58 PM) *
Blade, you give a wonderful list of possibilities. It sounds like your gang would be fun to play with.


Actually this was what came out of a discussion of the French-speaking equivalent of Dumpshock. (and you're right: people there are fun to play/drink/have fun with)
But if you ever come to France, it'll be a pleasure playing with you.
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pbangarth
post Jun 23 2009, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Jun 23 2009, 03:40 PM) *
Actually this was what came out of a discussion of the French-speaking equivalent of Dumpshock. (and you're right: people there are fun to play/drink/have fun with)
But if you ever come to France, it'll be a pleasure playing with you.


It's been 31 years since I've been in Paris. Ahhh... kisses at the top of the Eiffel Tower and being hand-fed grapes while draped across her bed.

Maybe the time has come to return. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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