Proposal: New Skillgroup "Sports", Maybe still in time for the SR4A hardcopy? Options

[Doc Byte]

Aloha

While I was creating a bicycle courier character I was wondering where to put bicycling in the skill web. That's a question coming up once every few years. My first thought was the athletics group. Then I thought that there's another skill missing: Horse riding

So I came up with the idea of a new skill group. I picked up two other skills. First one: Skiing - Everyone remembers James Bond on skis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) The second / forth skill's skating as there are cyberrollerblades and hoverboards in the rulebooks.

The result looks like this:


Sports skill group

Cycling (Strength)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Road racing, track racing, mountain biking, BMX freestyle, urban sprawl, touring

Horse riding (Intuition)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Track racing, cross-country, showjumping, dressage riding, western riding

Skiing (Strength)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Downhill, super-g, slalom, snowboarding, freestyle, cross-country

Skating (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Rollerblading, skateboarding, ice skating, speed skating, short track, figure skating, hover boards


Regarding cyber- or bioware, everything providing a bonus to the athletic skill group or Strength, Intuition or Agility linked (physical active) skills would apply.


In my opinion a Sports skill group would close some gaps in the rules and would be a gain in the SR4A core rulebook.


One might even think about adding a fifth skill:

Surfing (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Wave riding, wind surfing, water skiing (maybe skysurfing)

But I don't see such a big gain for the game as in the first four skills.

[Jaid]

in general, i would consider most sports (and physical activities) to be a specialisation of one skill or another. riding bicycles in 4th edition would probably fall under pilot groundcraft, for example.

i probably wouldn't recommend a sports skill group. if there was going to be something similar, i'd probably treat it more like artisan. i don't feel that being good at sports is worth a skill group, personally.

[Omenowl]

I would put cycling under pilot ground craft
I would put skiing as a subgroup under running and same with skating.
Surfing I would still put under athletics or its own skill
Horseback riding I would also put under its own skill and base it on willpower.

I think adding a skill group with different skills that have little correlation or mixture between disciplines is not a good way to go.

As for adding skills as a GM you are free to add as many as you want, but to put them into a corebook does not add much except space. It is like adding every knowledge skill to the book. A lot of effort for little return.

[Tiger Eyes]

Horse riding (Intuition)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Track racing, cross-country, showjumping, dressage riding, western riding

*whistles* Hm. I wonder where a Riding skill might appear...

[The Jake]

I put most sports under Athletics skill group.

I'll give a good example: Parkour.

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am pretty sure that we use athletics for most sports as well... though a few might fall under several other skills...

[Omenowl]

I would put Animal riding/training under a unique skill with willpower as the primary attribute. It has a lot less to do with agility or strength and more to do with asserting your will onto an animal.

[Doc Byte]

in general, i would consider most sports (and physical activities) to be a specialisation of one skill or another. riding bicycles in 4th edition would probably fall under pilot groundcraft, for example.

I wouldn't put it under groundcraft. Reaction's the wrong attribute. Riding a bicyle is sport and should be put under Strenght or Body (= endurance).

i probably wouldn't recommend a sports skill group. if there was going to be something similar, i'd probably treat it more like artisan. i don't feel that being good at sports is worth a skill group, personally.

I've faced more than once a question like:

- How do I ride a bicycle?
- What skill do I use for this horse?
- Why isn't there a skill for my rollerblades?

...

I didn't chose some ramdom skills but skills that are missing and (IMHO) useful for the game. That's the reason why "surfing" isn't as important to me than the other four skills.

I would put cycling under pilot ground craft

Maybe downhill but have you ever climbed a hill with a bicyle? That's the end of "piloting".

I would put skiing as a subgroup under running and same with skating.

And lose all possible spezialisations. Downhill skiing's something entirely different than cross-country skiing.

Surfing I would still put under athletics or its own skill
Horseback riding I would also put under its own skill and base it on willpower.

I think adding a skill group with different skills that have little correlation or mixture between disciplines is not a good way to go.

One might put surfing in the sports group and treat horse riding as a stand alone skill.

As for adding skills as a GM you are free to add as many as you want, but to put them into a corebook does not add much except space. It is like adding every knowledge skill to the book. A lot of effort for little return.

I was creating a archetype for Pegasus Spiele and one shouldn't hand out archetyps with house rules to total beginners. The problem was how to handle bicycling.

*whistles* Hm. I wonder where a Riding skill might appear...

Pardon me? *confused*

I put most sports under Athletics skill group.

I'll give a good example: Parkour.

Yes, that's a great example for athletics. But it becomes different if you use a bike or skis. I wouldn't even put basketball or baseball under athletics. But these are really of little importance to the game.

I am pretty sure that we use athletics for most sports as well... though a few might fall under several other skills...

As I said, decathlon would be perfect but I see a difference between "athletic" and using a musclepropelled means of transportaion.


---

I surely don't want rules for every sport but I see a lack of some skills that are useful in the game and happen to cause problems more than once in a while. (Of course neither all the time.) Maybe mentioning SR4A was exaggerated but one could place a sports group either in a RC reprint or in a supplemental PDF for RC like Digital Grimore. A chapter on sports in the 6th world exploring naturalist, cyber-enhanced, metas vs. humans, ki-ads on the sports field and the role of WADA would be great.

I would put Animal riding/training under a unique skill with willpower as the primary attribute. It has a lot less to do with agility or strength and more to do with asserting your will onto an animal.

I guess since Robert Redford we know there are two ways of riding. One linked to Willpower and one linked to Intution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Blade]

*whistles* Hm. I wonder where a Riding skill might appear...

In the upcoming Shadowrun/My Little Poney crossover?

Edit: Silly me, of course that's in Vice.

[Medicineman]

I Like the Idea of a new Sportsgroup separate from Athletics
It gives more opprtunity for different Chars with different specialisations (Iron man Athlete,the mentioned bike Courir)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Machiavelli]

I simply don´t have enough karma for such nonsense. Otherwise i would have a LOT of additonal skills, e.g. poker playing, cooking, sarcastic comments about NPC´s etc. ^^

[Eleint]

I agree with the above. It's really not something that matters enough in a typical game of Shadowrun to be a whole new active skill. I'd personally do this:

Bicycling: Running Specialization. Horseback Riding: Survival or Pilot Ground specialty.

Do the same for other skills. I really don't think making people pay active skill price for being able to ride a bicycle well or ride a horse well makes sense.

[Medicineman]

I agree with the above. It's really not something that matters enough in a typical game of Shadowrun to be a whole new active skill. I'd personally do this:

Bicycling: Running Specialization. Horseback Riding: Survival or Pilot Ground specialty.

Do the same for other skills. I really don't think making people pay active skill price for being able to ride a bicycle well or ride a horse well makes sense.

It makes sense for those who
A) want to pay the cost
B) Play with Karma gen (so they have some Karma left for another Group)
C) have a special Char-Design in Mind(I want to Play a former bicycle Champion that fell from Grace and has to end up as a Bicycle Courier. Or somebody that is a "Fun Sports Guy " with Skills like Skiing,Boards,Bikes,etc)

with a Fundance
Medicineman

[Doc Byte]

I simply don´t have enough karma for such nonsense. Otherwise i would have a LOT of additonal skills, e.g. poker playing, cooking, sarcastic comments about NPC´s etc. ^^

That's a matter of priorities. I've spent more than 100 Karma points on knowledge skills. (after chargen)

C) have a special Char-Design in Mind(I want to Play a former bicycle Champion that fell from Grace and has to end up as a Bicycle Courier. Or somebody that is a "Fun Sports Guy " with Skills like Skiing,Boards,Bikes,etc)

Now we're even, I've stolen your pun and you've stolen my character concept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

---

There's another skill I forgot:


Ball Games (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Singel sport (soccer, basket ball, baseball, american football, tennis, golf, etc.)


I think a supplemental skill group with secondary skills should be fine with six skills. You can diversify your character but if you cose the whole group you get a 2 skills discount. In my opinion this would be a nice optional rule. If you don't like it, you could keep it out of your game. One the there hand, if you like and use it, there's now need for further house rules. Isn't that a fair compromise?


Sports skill group
Ball Games
Cycling
Horse riding
Skating
Skiing
Surfing

[Draco18s]

*whistles* Hm. I wonder where a Riding skill might appear...

Where would you put Carouse? That is, socializing while drinking.
How about Investigate?
Broker? (As different from Diplomacy, Persuasion, and Advocate ("defending one's self"))
Trade? (That is, trade skills, the manufacture of basic items)
Engineering? (As different from Mechanic)
Steward? (That is, taking care of upper class passengers)
Gambling? (That is, knowing how to place one's bets intelligently)

[MJBurrage]

I have to agree with the thoughts that:

• Cycling should be treated as a specialization of Pilot Ground Craft, although acceleration and speed should be based on Body, much like melee damage is based on Strength. (maybe accel. = body and speed = body × 10. For anyone who thinks one of those is too fast, a fit friend of mine has gotten a speeding ticket on his bicycle.)
• Skiing and Skating should be treated as specializations of Running.
• Riding would currently be handled as an example of Pilot Exotic Vehicle; however it will apparently be its own skill within an Animal Handling group, and detailed in Running Wild later this year.

[Jaid]

Where would you put Carouse? That is, socializing while drinking.
How about Investigate?
Broker? (As different from Diplomacy, Persuasion, and Advocate ("defending one's self"))
Trade? (That is, trade skills, the manufacture of basic items)
Engineering? (As different from Mechanic)
Steward? (That is, taking care of upper class passengers)
Gambling? (That is, knowing how to place one's bets intelligently)

carouse is going to be etiquette (drunken +2)
broker is a knowledge skill.
trade is going to be part of artisan or one of the mechanical skill groups, most likely.
engineering is a knowledge skill (you don't do stuff with engineering, you know how to do stuff, plan how to do it, and then get a technician to do it)
steward is going to be another specialisation of etiquette i'd say.
gambling is a knowledge skill (like you said, knowing how to place bets intelligently)

[Chibu]

Those skills should all be seperate. If you play one sport, or are good a 'athletics' you aren't good at some random sport you've never heard of.

If you want a skill in "basketball", then take a skill in basketball. This isn't difficult. Horse riding likewise. In Second edition Horseback riding was it's own skill under "Special Skills".

More importantly though, if you want to be able to ride a bike, you can ride a bike. It doesn't take a skill. If you want to ride a bike, in COMBAT, you need a skill for it. The samgoes for horseback riding, skating, etc. However, you would also need a skill if you wanted to do tricks on said riding implement.

But, no. I completely disagree that these skills should ever be printed in a book. They have nothing to do with the game. If you want to take it as a skill, then take it as a skill. You can always do that, it doesn't need to be in a book.

[Draco18s]

engineering is a knowledge skill (you don't do stuff with engineering, you know how to do stuff, plan how to do it, and then get a technician to do it)

I'm sure all of my engineer friends would disagree with you.

“Engineering is the creative application of scientific principles to design or develop structures, machines, apparatus, or manufacturing processes, or works utilizing them singly or in combination; or to construct or operate the same with full cognizance of their design; or to forecast their behavior under specific operating conditions; all as respects an intended function, economics of operation and safety to life and property.�

Doesn't sound like knowing to me, sounds like doing.

[Jackstand]

Engineering would probably be an active skill in the same way that Arcana is.

As for the sports group, while it probably wouldn't see too much use, I would like it- especially for cycling. The lack of bicycles has been a thorn in my side for four editions, now. However, it contains too many skills. All other groups include only three or four skills. I don't think that Horse Riding or Ball Games are conceptually consistent with the rest, either. I would drop those two, and the remaining skills, Cycling, Skiing, Skating and Surfing, form a group of acceptable size and consistent theme, in that they all deal with unpowered transportation.

[Doc Byte]

More importantly though, if you want to be able to ride a bike, you can ride a bike. It doesn't take a skill. If you want to ride a bike, in COMBAT, you need a skill for it. The samgoes for horseback riding, skating, etc. However, you would also need a skill if you wanted to do tricks on said riding implement.

A former professional biker should have a cycling skill, shouldn't he?

But, no. I completely disagree that these skills should ever be printed in a book. They have nothing to do with the game. If you want to take it as a skill, then take it as a skill. You can always do that, it doesn't need to be in a book.

So there's still the question what to do with my archetype.

As for the sports group, while it probably wouldn't see too much use, I would like it- especially for cycling. The lack of bicycles has been a thorn in my side for four editions, now. However, it contains too many skills. All other groups include only three or four skills. I don't think that Horse Riding or Ball Games are conceptually consistent with the rest, either. I would drop those two, and the remaining skills, Cycling, Skiing, Skating and Surfing, form a group of acceptable size and consistent theme, in that they all deal with unpowered transportation.

I know there are actually too much skills in it. Horse riding seems to be forthcoming so I can drop it. And I accept that ball games doesn't perfectly fit into a sports group. That leaves:


Sports skill group

Cycling (Strength)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Road racing, track racing, mountain biking, BMX freestyle, urban sprawl, touring

Skating (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Rollerblading, skateboarding, ice skating, speed skating, short track, figure skating, hover boards

Skiing (Strength)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Downhill, super-g, slalom, snowboarding, freestyle, cross-country

Surfing (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Sports
Specializations: Wave riding, wind surfing, water skiing (maybe skysurfing)


---

Horse riding (Intuition)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: -
Specializations: Track racing, cross-country, showjumping, dressage riding, western riding


Ball Games (Agility)
Default: Yes
Skill Group: -
Specializations: Singel sport (soccer, basket ball, baseball, american football, tennis, golf, etc.)

[Chibu]

Former professional biker? Well, can he evade people on his bike? Can he ride at high speeds and take corners quickly while dodging traffic? Alternately, was he an X-Games type rider? If so, then yes he should have a skill in riding bikes. Does he ride a bike in marathon-style races on easy terrain at slow-ish speeds over long distances? If so, he should probably instead have Athletics, for endurance et al.

And again, I'm not saying it should not be a skill. It definitely should. However, it's also my opinion that 90% of Americans don't have a Drive skill (seriously, have you ever driven around here? lol). But they're allowed to operate motor vehicles anyway. There are few people who could outrun cops and lose them in the city during a high-speed chase as riggers in SR do. However, if the way that you play is that you must have a drive skill to drive under normal conditions, then cycling should be the same way.

Also, I personally feel that each "Ball Game" should be it's own skill. There shouldn't be a skill that covers all of them, no matter its "usefullness" in Shadowrun. I've played baseball, and soccer, and basketball. I was pretty good at them back in the day. however, I can't golf worth crap, nor play tennis well, and I sincerely doubt my ability to be a linebacker is reflected by how many home runs I can hit. So, from personal experiance, I would say that these skills are as involved as any other. Professional baseball players spend as much time training as professional marksmen. Therefore the skills should cost the same.

However, all of the other skills seem pretty much right. I like the layout you have for them. And the skill group seems balanced now. I still do not think it should be printed though. This is not meant as an offense, simply that the skills are not related enough to Shadowrunning that they would be often enough used. Your character idea is cool, original, and has style. I like it. But again, it's not really an archetype, as there will not be a significant enough percentage of runners who would fall under it.

Hmm... I think that was all... Again though, mostly very good ideas. And even though I sound like it sometimes, I'm almost never actually trying to be mean.

[Machiavelli]

That's a matter of priorities. I've spent more than 100 Karma points on knowledge skills. (after chargen)

I didn´t already earn that much karma, but if i have all IMPORTANT skills on max. i will think about it.^^

[Doc Byte]

Former professional biker? Well, can he evade people on his bike? Can he ride at high speeds and take corners quickly while dodging traffic? Alternately, was he an X-Games type rider? If so, then yes he should have a skill in riding bikes. Does he ride a bike in marathon-style races on easy terrain at slow-ish speeds over long distances? If so, he should probably instead have Athletics, for endurance et al.

Actually he was a tour professional: Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, etc. - Got caught with too much extras even for the enhanced ones by the WADA.

However, all of the other skills seem pretty much right. I like the layout you have for them. And the skill group seems balanced now. I still do not think it should be printed though. This is not meant as an offense, simply that the skills are not related enough to Shadowrunning that they would be often enough used. Your character idea is cool, original, and has style. I like it. But again, it's not really an archetype, as there will not be a significant enough percentage of runners who would fall under it.

I could live with individual ball games, too. I just thought it would fit in with the other skills. As I've said, maybe one could add the sport group and a chapter on sports in a RC complemental PDF like Digital Grimoire.

Concerning the archetype: Pegasus Spiele (German SR publisher) asked the fanbase if we'd like to create some archetyps for their website. But I must confess that my proposals are more characters than archetypes.

[Doc Byte]

I didn´t already earn that much karma, but if i have all IMPORTANT skills on max. i will think about it.^^

Not my gaming style.