Security!, How secure is it? Options

[Mr. Mage]

I tend to make my security measures powerful enough so that the Runners won't have a 100% success rate in overcoming them or that they won't get it first try. Give them a challenge. I also make it so that mos security can be bypassed, should the Runners think about it.

For example, Motion detectors (As was stated in the start of this thread) can be removed as an obstacle IRL by hacking in and altering the frequency which they detect, thus rendering them obsolete for detecting most humans. If the characters think of something like that, let them do it.

For the most part though, I would suspect that players and GMs wouldn't know how Real World security works on a technical level, just that it exists, so I tend to just set a Threshold for them to overcome with a specific skill for each of the various security measures.

As to how secure it should be? Well, that's always up for debate. Some Real-World companies, it's easy to just walk in and do what you want (you may get caught later but not immediately) while others pretty much make you sign away your first-born child just to get into the reception area (so have lots of kids!)

[GT3000]

I'll agree with most of what is said here but SR is not the equivalent of real-life security. Most real applications of security are simple and effective designs that while not fool-proof (never is) are more than a match for the level of activity it combats. Sometimes it is insufficent and other times it's far too much but security in SR is far more complex with more advance technological and even magical applications. It stands to be that security is always reactionary and prone to failure because of nature of the beast. Attackers choose the time, place, means, and method of execution. Defenders can only guess and hypothesize the next move. Depending on the structure in real-life the tenant is absorb, enclose, and destroy or repel, scatter, and destroy (if possible) to be simply put. There are various methods but simply put most elements breaching secure compounds in real-life don't have the training of a high-level military or covert unit. You really can't protect against those groups of individuals unless you're fully aware they are a persistent threat and the cost of maintaining a level of personnel and equipment is deemed necessary. SR is a different bird and as such no compound is unbreachable given the skills of these dedicated squads of metahumans. You can make it really unappealing though. There was a handbook on SR security. The Corporate Security Handbook, it's an excellent reference material for constructing elaborate defenses in SR.

[nezumi]

Most real applications of security are simple and effective designs that while not fool-proof (never is) are more than a match for the level of activity it combats.

ANd the level of activity it normally combats is normally street thugs who think they can get a free computer. Real life espionage at the level shadowrunners operate at is unusual in our world, and most security systems are not designed with them in mind (with few exceptions). Usually security systems are designed to counter one or two people with limited skills and drive, looking for targets of opportunity, not a determined and skilled attacker.

[tete]

Couple things I want to address

Ok, let's face the fact shadowrunners are as heavily armed and trained as SEAL team 6. Ever watch the embassy rescue in South America they do use demolitions. The entire operation tends to last less than 10 minutes. This is how long your police and guards have to respond before shadowrunners are gone.

Shadowrunners have the advantage of surprise, choosing of their timing, and heavy firepower. Most guards are underpowered and reactive. So if the characters come bursting in with shaped charges, a tricked out van or helicopter this is not unusual for a shadowrunner. Most facilities aren't intended to stop this kind of assault. The goal by security is delay and contain until reinforcements arrive.

From first hand knowledge and talking to several people I can say the more secure the location the more lax the guards. I have known MPs who slept in guard towers protecting nuclear weapons. I know that many federal buildings have contractors protecting them with a few professionally trained police to ensure quality. Same is becoming true of military bases. I also know of guards who would turn off alarms because they always went off (motion detectors were the worst especially where leaves and gophers were concerned). I have also seen where one could easily penetrate security during normal business hours and take items by just claiming to be movers.

I have seen security measures implemented because of a supposed threat that cost more than the threat itself. It also reduced productivity and many people actually bypassed the security because it was so onerous. Have 15 different passwords and people save them in physical format or on their person. This defeats the whole purpose of having passwords. Security costs productivity. A 100% secure system is one with 0% productivity. Smaller firms actually have better awareness to unauthorized individuals than large organizations because people know each other.

Getting in is always easy. It is getting out and away that is the hard part.

I agree shadowrunners should be a seal team but thats a style of play. As for the federal buildings/Military Sites/etc any place that has guns and the ability to call for backup to a high threat response will have more lax guards. This is because they are built around the idea that if someone wants in they will find a way so lets instead work on keeping them there. This is not true of the private sector which doesn't have access to firepower and has to rely on police response time. Those site will have many security stations to go through and checks in order to keep people out. These sits are usually set up to handle breaching the outer wall as well. They hope to keep you away from your target as long as possible until the cops arrive.

I'll agree with most of what is said here but SR is not the equivalent of real-life security. Most real applications of security are simple and effective designs that while not fool-proof (never is) are more than a match for the level of activity it combats. Sometimes it is insufficent and other times it's far too much but security in SR is far more complex with more advance technological and even magical applications. It stands to be that security is always reactionary and prone to failure because of nature of the beast. Attackers choose the time, place, means, and method of execution. Defenders can only guess and hypothesize the next move. Depending on the structure in real-life the tenant is absorb, enclose, and destroy or repel, scatter, and destroy (if possible) to be simply put. There are various methods but simply put most elements breaching secure compounds in real-life don't have the training of a high-level military or covert unit. You really can't protect against those groups of individuals unless you're fully aware they are a persistent threat and the cost of maintaining a level of personnel and equipment is deemed necessary. SR is a different bird and as such no compound is unbreachable given the skills of these dedicated squads of metahumans. You can make it really unappealing though. There was a handbook on SR security. The Corporate Security Handbook, it's an excellent reference material for constructing elaborate defenses in SR.

Other than the Magical element its not really very different than today. We already have rental, dna, bio, etc scanners. We already have "the matrix" and wireless. While there are fantastic elements most of it is based on plausible stuff or advances in things that already exist. Heck you can control your computer by just looking at the screen now (not as efficient as a keyboard and mouse but it exists)

[Omenowl]

That's a mindset I have trouble even comprehending.
1) A team can penetrate a secure system -- it just not be their usual method of operation to do it. A group who is used to the 'sneak in, sneak out' under cover of night may find such a method isn't going to work. Another team who is used to 'false ID, walk through the front door' may find that doesn't work either. It isn't so much 'can' as 'how', and I prefer that method of play. It was one reason that, as a player, I would presume to be given two week's leeway for any infiltration job my character was going to perform. He needed to know the layout, the security measures taken, and how things operated, so he could figure the most successful method of infiltration. Most players I deal with don't quite go that far, and prefer the 'try to sneak in, get cover blown, shoot way out' style of run. I call that a failed mission.

2) I've never, ever seen a team try the 'blow a hole in the wall' approach. If they did that, I'd probably have security shoot them dead, and they'd be wanted BADLY. It may just be my personal tastes, but I prefer my SR games to have a high level of realism, and trying to blow a hole in a corp's wall to grab stuff is definitely not realistic.

Shadowrunning is a part of life in the 6th world, yes, but I don't see it as a 'let's make it only reasonably hard' approach. Like I said earlier, a low level indy bookstore my wife works at has pretty damn good security for what it sells. The thing is, security only has a high cost at the start, and then runs a low cost over an extended period of time (discounted if you do extended contracts). This security will cover multiple projects, and if you really want your projects secure, you want to convince people that trying to break in is generally a Bad Thing. I'm more of the mindset that if runners come, and they trip the system, the corporation is within their rights to make that team DED. That's why, as a player, I always go with the 'if you are seen, the mission failed' mindset, and so tend to look at everything I can about security and sec. countermeasures. I'm also willing to accept that some locations will take entirely too much time / effort to be worth a run unless the payoff is really, really, really nice.

I always despised games where the job had to be done within a 48 hours. I believe if you are going to hit a target you should know patterns, people, etc. How you enter is just as important as how you leave. The method depended on the goals of the mission.

As for blowing the wall approach if you have a party comprised of a Radical Eco Shaman, A street samurai, a hacker, and a smuggler and a covert ops you have a party that can scale from silent to full gun battle. Demolitions would definitely be an option. So what if security will shoot them dead, they probably expect that from the beginning. If a guard points a gun at me then he is shooting to kill. The trick is to do it so fast that their security does not have time to respond. Also demolitions work for blowing a hole in, but they can also be reserved for blowing a hole out. This completely screws up security trying to contain them. You may not like that method, and you can't expect most facilities to enter it.

The truth is the playstyle is what the missions demands. If the mission is to guard a rockstar than discretion and minimal violence is called for. If it is to act as a defending force for another shadowrun team then you can fully expect missiles and machineguns. I do think it is up to the players to and GM to include a variety and mix of runs so players have to use all their skills and resources.

Now lets take a hard look at your scenario

Motion detectors. Ok they detect motion, but what do they do? What sets them off? What is the response when they go off? Do they go off so much that many places turn them off? Who monitors them (are they monitored or just automatic defense?). Do they hinder the movement of all personnel or just certain ones?

Cameras. They aren't wireless, but is there a point where they are all controlled? Does anyone monitor the cameras? What if they lose connection? What is the response? Do the cameras simply record or are they there to coordinate movements?

The guards have shifts. What is their usual patrol pattern? Do they vigilantly check areas or simply walk around looking for fire? Do the guards know the people working there? Are the guards even armed and with what? What kind of skills do they have? When are the most guards on duty? Do they hang out watching tv and drinking coffee or do they actually do their rounds? What kind of reserve weapons do they have and what is the plan for emergencies? Are the guards supposed to defend from street thugs, a disgruntled wage slave, or a strike team with military grade weapons and armor?

What are the reserve defenses? How long does it take them to react? Do they have offsite contracts for defense? Are they shared defenses with other corporations? Are there treaties between corporations for hot pursuit or mutual defense? What is the standard defense plan?

Do the doors have physical locks that have to be picked? If they lose power do they automatically lock or unlock? Is there a way to open the door if it does not have power? Are they independent controlled or centrally controlled? If they are independently controlled then do they all work correctly? Are they upto date?

Are the defenses hooked up to the matrix? Are there communications to call for backup? Are these wireless or wired? If the matrix defenses are inaccessible to the outside then is a spider on duty? If so how many are on duty at one time? How many spiders work at the facility (at least 3 times the number on duty)? What do they do if 1 is on vacation and another is sick?

Assume the cost of maintaining an employee is double the expected lifestyle of the employee. Then determine if the damage that is being defended against is 5 times that. Assume all methods will cost 5 times what the initial cost over the lifespan of the defense (IE drones, cameras, etc). That would include maintenance, etc.

[toturi]

Now lets take a hard look at your scenario

Motion detectors. Ok they detect motion, but what do they do? What sets them off? What is the response when they go off? Do they go off so much that many places turn them off? Who monitors them (are they monitored or just automatic defense?). Do they hinder the movement of all personnel or just certain ones?

Cameras. They aren't wireless, but is there a point where they are all controlled? Does anyone monitor the cameras? What if they lose connection? What is the response? Do the cameras simply record or are they there to coordinate movements?

The guards have shifts. What is their usual patrol pattern? Do they vigilantly check areas or simply walk around looking for fire? Do the guards know the people working there? Are the guards even armed and with what? What kind of skills do they have? When are the most guards on duty? Do they hang out watching tv and drinking coffee or do they actually do their rounds? What kind of reserve weapons do they have and what is the plan for emergencies? Are the guards supposed to defend from street thugs, a disgruntled wage slave, or a strike team with military grade weapons and armor?

What are the reserve defenses? How long does it take them to react? Do they have offsite contracts for defense? Are they shared defenses with other corporations? Are there treaties between corporations for hot pursuit or mutual defense? What is the standard defense plan?

Do the doors have physical locks that have to be picked? If they lose power do they automatically lock or unlock? Is there a way to open the door if it does not have power? Are they independent controlled or centrally controlled? If they are independently controlled then do they all work correctly? Are they upto date?

Are the defenses hooked up to the matrix? Are there communications to call for backup? Are these wireless or wired? If the matrix defenses are inaccessible to the outside then is a spider on duty? If so how many are on duty at one time? How many spiders work at the facility (at least 3 times the number on duty)? What do they do if 1 is on vacation and another is sick?

Assume the cost of maintaining an employee is double the expected lifestyle of the employee. Then determine if the damage that is being defended against is 5 times that. Assume all methods will cost 5 times what the initial cost over the lifespan of the defense (IE drones, cameras, etc). That would include maintenance, etc.

Those are the details the GM has to decide. But before that, the GM has to decide how much the corp is willing to spend and how good the Security Design is and how good the Security Procedures are. Once those are decided, the rest tend to fall into place easily.

[Tashiro]

I'm actually surprised at the idea of a Shadowrunner team being on-par with a SWAT team. From most groups I've seen, the players usually don't pick skills to put them on that level of expertise. (A few combat skills, some may have electronic skills, most don't, one or two may have a driving skill, one didn't even have a stealth related skill).

Honestly, I expect that to be high-end play, if the GM tells players 'make a SWAT-level team'. I mean, my primary character was an infiltrator shaman type, which went pretty well at the covert stuff. My wife's character, however, was a street shaman. He wasn't really into the sneaky stuff. He wasn't into the tech stuff. Or combat all that much. He was backup, and would have been a liability in a SWAT-level game. Our troll was the landlord for a property in the slums, and acted genteel, but wasn't the 'in the shadows' type.

Giving the group a covert run would have killed them. In fact, most 'normal' security would have given them a tough time, I think. So... of course, they don't do those kind of runs. I think the 'break into the corporation, steal stuff, break out' sort of runs are for experienced (IC) runners who are geared to that sort of thing... the exception to the rule. Sort of like the 'elite teams' you see in movies. Not every team of runners are going to pull off The Italian Job.

[tete]

Well your probably not going to start at Seal level but the first group I ever played in the longest lived runner had 50 karma pool the session I joined and started with 1. We usually earned 1 karma pool about every 2 to 3 sessions. The noobs like me would loose a few characters before getting a feel for it. When moved I think I had around 30 something karma pool

[Omenowl]

I'm actually surprised at the idea of a Shadowrunner team being on-par with a SWAT team. From most groups I've seen, the players usually don't pick skills to put them on that level of expertise. (A few combat skills, some may have electronic skills, most don't, one or two may have a driving skill, one didn't even have a stealth related skill).

Honestly, I expect that to be high-end play, if the GM tells players 'make a SWAT-level team'. I mean, my primary character was an infiltrator shaman type, which went pretty well at the covert stuff. My wife's character, however, was a street shaman. He wasn't really into the sneaky stuff. He wasn't into the tech stuff. Or combat all that much. He was backup, and would have been a liability in a SWAT-level game. Our troll was the landlord for a property in the slums, and acted genteel, but wasn't the 'in the shadows' type.

Giving the group a covert run would have killed them. In fact, most 'normal' security would have given them a tough time, I think. So... of course, they don't do those kind of runs. I think the 'break into the corporation, steal stuff, break out' sort of runs are for experienced (IC) runners who are geared to that sort of thing... the exception to the rule. Sort of like the 'elite teams' you see in movies. Not every team of runners are going to pull off The Italian Job.

When I look at the Archetype base characters and weapon lists I tend to notice: Automatic weapons, demolitions, grenades, area effect spells and drones. These are stock characters not hand made characters. This immediately puts shadowrun team on SWAT or Special Forces footing in my view. This doesn't mean that it is your goal to lay down lead, but you always have that option. To me a shadowrun team is a freelance version of section 9 (Ghost in the Shell), but more inexperienced when first starting.

[nezumi]

re: cutting through a wall - Burn Notice just had a show where they cut through a wall with a water saw. Now I want to try it!

[Cheops]

That, and only that. Fiberoptic wires alone cost 5Y per meter, which adds up quickly. How many meters do you need to connect every single camera in the facility? There's a reason most facilities run wireless: it's cheap, and corps like cheap.

This is incorrect by the fluff. Everything in SR1-3 had to be wired. Therefore the wires were laid down years ago. Crash 2.0 did not destroy all the wires in all the buildings.

The problem with blowing your way into a building is that the Corps always have bigger guns and in bigger quantities. Response time is near minimal so that even if you do manage to get away odds are they are already watching you with mages and drones. I've TPKed numerous parties at their "safehouse" after trying to pull this shit. No law in the Barrens works both ways chummer.

[RedeemerofOgar]

I have never, ever, ever seen a SR team like this in any game I've played, or ran. No demolitions, no tricked out vans, no helicopters. Most of the equipment I see my groups get is internal stuff (cybernetics, bioware), or efficient ordinance / armour (chem suits, stealth suits), rather than going for the big boom.

Our team has a demo expert and we're in the process of tricking out an SUV with a concealed-turret autocannon. We haven't yet actually NEEDED breaching charges, but we have set them up twice as a backup plan. ...hmm. I wonder if our demo guy actually removed the charges on the way out? *grin* Usually though we hack their security system, then go in using magic for invisibility to avoid the guards and employees. Doors are the interesting part - it's sometimes necessary to use Influence magic while sustaining a handful of invisibility spells, which is always fun... usually safer than leaving an unconscious body lying around though.

[Omenowl]

This is incorrect by the fluff. Everything in SR1-3 had to be wired. Therefore the wires were laid down years ago. Crash 2.0 did not destroy all the wires in all the buildings.

The problem with blowing your way into a building is that the Corps always have bigger guns and in bigger quantities. Response time is near minimal so that even if you do manage to get away odds are they are already watching you with mages and drones. I've TPKed numerous parties at their "safehouse" after trying to pull this shit. No law in the Barrens works both ways chummer.

Bigger guns and more quantities may apply to a whole mega corp, but unless you are attacking an Aztlan military base the players probably outgun security. Minimal response time would be in the range of 5 minutes if onsite and 15 minutes offsite. The offsite security will takes as long as firefighters would take to get to your house and begin with the pumps let alone actually going into the building. The idea by onesite security is to deter by their presense and to contain damage.

As for chasing players back to the their safehouses that is perfectly acceptable. However, extraterritoriality and caution by the players can make this much harder.

[toturi]

The counter-tail application of the Shadowing skill, Knowledge skills such as Covert Ops Protocols can help with people trying to find you. Knowledge skills such as Guerilla Tactics can help with the actual attack and extraction on the target.

I stat my security measures as appropriate to what the security designer has to work with. A facility geared towards thwarting infiltration tactics would be less able to counter brute force attacks and vice versa.

[kzt]

Bigger guns and more quantities may apply to a whole mega corp, but unless you are attacking an Aztlan military base the players probably outgun security. Minimal response time would be in the range of 5 minutes if onsite and 15 minutes offsite.

Realistically yes, but this is an RPG. In the real world people often have 5 minute long gunfights where they go through multiple magazines. When was the last time in a SR game you have a 15 second long gunfight? When did you last have a PC/NPC have to reload?

It's "The Last Action Hero" world, where things happen in dramatic time, not real time.

[Tashiro]

Realistically yes, but this is an RPG. In the real world people often have 5 minute long gunfights where they go through multiple magazines. When was the last time in a SR game you have a 15 second long gunfight? When did you last have a PC/NPC have to reload?

It's "The Last Action Hero" world, where things happen in dramatic time, not real time.

Actually, I do have PCs and NPCs reload. As for gun fights... yeah, that's one of the things that's always annoyed me about RPGs... the '10 second gunfight'. Combat takes a lot longer than what's done in RPGs, and that annoys me to no end.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have never, ever, ever seen a SR team like this in any game I've played, or ran. No demolitions, no tricked out vans, no helicopters. Most of the equipment I see my groups get is internal stuff (cybernetics, bioware), or efficient ordinance / armour (chem suits, stealth suits), rather than going for the big boom.

Mind you, most of the players don't make military characters, they think more 'street' level and 'shadow ops' rather than 'military'. Probably for the best.

We have used Breaching Charges in a couple of occassions... we have multiple vehicles that are "tricked out", and we have access to air transport... now, the vast majority of vehicles/drones are more for surveillance than combat, but they are modded up none the less... and hell, we just bought us a Spec Ops style "Fishing Trawler"

Great Times

[kzt]

My ex-military character typically had a folded up silhouette charge in a pack on runs. I don't think he ever used it, but it was emergency exit plan c.

[Smokeskin]

About what level of security a corp would have, I'm surprised the most important security measure corps have haven't been mentioned.

Insurance.

Who cares about theft or sabotage when your insurance covers the costs? Most security measures are what the insurance demands and no more, and unless you're carrying some goods that are attractive to thieves in general, they're not going to meet you with excessive demands. Sound an alarm, and eventually a lone guard is going to show up. Physical security is pretty limited, and just about the only thing hard to get at is servers.

Employee theft and embezzlement and corruption and IT security, that's where the focus is.

Defence contractors, high end research facilities, stuff like that is a different ball game of course.

[CanRay]

All depends on where you are.

If you're in a Stuffer Shack, the "Security" is a few 'Trid cameras and a PANICBUTTON!.

If you're in an MCT Installation, then security is... Um... Well... No one knows. No one has come back from that particular facility. We found an arm once...

[suoq]

^^^ 13 months ago ^^^