The Missing Ingredient is Crime, Shadowrun has a giant gaping omission Options

[Cheops]

If you're being chased by 7 cars, two turns later, you should have 1 remaining car chasing you, or you deserve to be pilloried as a crappy rigger, barring really unlucky dice.

Course in my example only 6 of 13 vehicles were ground based. So now you have to jump between controlling a car and controlling a drone and then back to make your vehicle test. Also the cops are taking attacks back at you in between each of those passes. Gives them plenty of time to take you out too if things have gone aggressive. Your saving grace would likely be the rest of the group -- not the rigger.

Player: Haha I took out 6 of the Star vehicles that turn.
GM: Congatulations to you. In the meantime they have shot out all 4 of your tires and your run-flats. Suck a -8 to your vehicle test.
Player: Aww...

Edit: Read your post a bit better. Those guys firing out the windows are able to be targeted back. Good way to wind up with some very dead teammates. Unless of course we aren't talking about you being in a Westwind anymore.

[DWC]

It gets better. Why would LS bother to try to crash you out when they can send a swarm of agents to brute force their way into its' node, blackout you into oblivion, then stop the car remotely? A minute is an eternity to be in contact with a force with the resources of Lone Star. You're going to avoid getting caught by avoiding attention, not by overwhelming them.

[Mr. Man]

Already in a high speed pursuit? Drive to the nearest public parking garage, [...] go down the storm drain and run away.

Area Knowledge: Seattle Parking Garages? It's that or end up in one without a (meta-)human traversable storm drain. Also any public parking garage is wide open to LEO scrutiny. The cop rigger who's been shadowing you through GridGuide will have the camera feeds and blueprints in front of him the second you cross the threshold.

The other items in your post all involve footwork (pre-planning) which is something I assume any player advocating car chases with cops hasn't done. At least not when their "strategy" seems to hinge on "thinning them out".

[kzt]

It gets better. Why would LS bother to try to crash you out when they can send a swarm of agents to brute force their way into its' node, blackout you into oblivion, then stop the car remotely? A minute is an eternity to be in contact with a force with the resources of Lone Star. You're going to avoid getting caught by avoiding attention, not by overwhelming them.

Nah, have each LS mage on duty summon up a force 3-5 spirit and tell it to kill everyone in the car as expeditiously as possible, then go home. That should drop 25-30 spirits on it in a minute or so.

[DWC]

Nah, have each LS mage on duty summon up a force 3-5 spirit and tell it to kill everyone in the car as expeditiously as possible, then go home. That should drop 25-30 spirits on it in a minute or so.

Oh just have one use movement to slow the car, and a few spirits of man to manifest inside it and stunbolt the occupants into unconsciousness. Really, the options for how to smack down PCs who want to throw down with the police are only limited by the tone of the campaign.

[Cheops]

Although in fluff the Seattle LS DiPS manpower is pretty low so based on fluff I wouldn't say 20-30 spirits is feasible. 2 or 3 isn't unreasonable.

Edit: D'oh got beat out in my answer.

[kzt]

If LS doesn't have 100 mages working for it within 50 km of Seattle I'd be kind of surprised. Even more when you go out to mutual aid, as the Feds and others would be willing to help whack terrorists who kill cops. Particularly as it's a pretty trivial action for most mages to summon a spirit and send it on a 5 minute remote service.

[Cheops]

According to New Seatte the department is about 100 large. 20-30% being assigned for this one chase might be a little excessive -- although admittedly not a huge stretch. You have a good point about the Feds especially since Shadowrunners are classed as Terrorists (can't remember which book that is in -- maybe Runner Havens) and therefore under the jurisdiction of the FBI. However, they'd have to ID you first and have you connected to runner activity.

[Larme]

Course in my example only 6 of 13 vehicles were ground based. So now you have to jump between controlling a car and controlling a drone and then back to make your vehicle test. Also the cops are taking attacks back at you in between each of those passes. Gives them plenty of time to take you out too if things have gone aggressive. Your saving grace would likely be the rest of the group -- not the rigger.

Player: Haha I took out 6 of the Star vehicles that turn.
GM: Congatulations to you. In the meantime they have shot out all 4 of your tires and your run-flats. Suck a -8 to your vehicle test.
Player: Aww...

Edit: Read your post a bit better. Those guys firing out the windows are able to be targeted back. Good way to wind up with some very dead teammates. Unless of course we aren't talking about you being in a Westwind anymore.

Dude, why should I ever bother? Every one of your responses is "nuh uh, you still lose." Guys firing from the windows are dead? Like, automatically dead? Where do you even get that idea? They all have Reaction 1 maybe? You get a defense bonus for firing out of a vehicle, AND the armor is added to your armor. All the tires are automatically gone? So I guess you biffed every defense test, and they are so awesome they don't miss called shots? Also, flying drones are weak sauce. There are very few heavily armored flying drones, and none of them are ones that police use, especially not as a first response. Assuming you have already fingered your players hard by creating an instantaneous 13 member chase force, any flying drones are likely to have about 8-12 damage resistance dice, not enough to survive assaults by skilled runners. And they're also probably running on Pilot, there's no way they have half a dozen riggers to spare jumping in for every chase, so all of their pools are balls.

Essentially what you're proposing is to create an auto-death scenario, where the opposition is too numerous and powerful to be defeated. Every time I suggest a strategy against it, you modify the scenario so the strategy won't work. That's not an argument. Of course, if you start by defining the situation as inescapable, it will be. The point is, inescapable police death traps don't beam in the instant you cause trouble. They take time to show up, and you have to do something BIG to get their attention. Most of the time, outside of high security zones, your main opposition will not be police, it will be the local security force. Police, not having a direct interest in what goes on inside corporate territory, aren't going to let the hammer fall the instant they hear about a shadowrun. If that's how you run them, then your game is going to be 100% stealth based, with a few bad rolls sending your players to jail. Maybe that's how you play it, but I don't think that's mandated by the books, and I've never met anyone else who plays like that.

[nezumi]

I'm not precisely sure run flats can be 'shot out', at least no more than any other piece of the car can be shot out (i.e. shoot it enough and it falls off). Runflats aren't inflatable tires. They're tires made almost entirely out of a rubber-like plastic compound, oftentimes with steel ribbing. You can drive over tire spikes and keep going.

I would be floored if Seattle-LS had 100 mages, especially 100 mages available for stopping car chases. Mages are very, very expensive, and LS thinks about the bottom line first. Magically active are already required for astral forensics, and for SWAT teams. They aren't going to have extras just sitting around waiting to conjure spirits. I wonder if they'd contract out to some central location, where spirits are conjured beforehand and assigned to a particular mundane LS officer when necessary.

Cop cars are not going to put themselves close enough to shoot directly at the other car, if they think the lead car has armed people in it. That's how you get cars of dead cops. They'll follow from a safe distance. If they're in a populated area, theyw on't be shooting either. They're legally liable for where every bullet goes. You don't want to take a shot at the bad guy only to waste poor Mrs. Fisher watching soap operas in her living room. That's called bad PR. Rather, the cops will hang back, clear the street ahead of civilians, and set up traps. If the bad guys aren't so bad they feel directly threatened, they'll try a pitt maneuver to stop the vehicle with a minimum of fuss, THEN aerate the occupants.

There aren't a lot of drones available that can follow at that speed, but if it's available, drones are more likely to be used to attack the car than people. If drones get shot, you don't have to pay a severance package to next of kin.

Most likely, the car will also be followed by a helicopter. A helicopter can follow safely, and shoot with less chance of stray bullets. The helicopter may decide against firing in AAA areas, but you better believe once you're close to the barrens, you're fair game. If anything, I imagine police may intentionally TRY to lead people into D areas. Areas where the cops can fire with impunity, without fear of getting shot back at. After all, a civilian shot by a cop leads to far more bad PR than a civilian shot by a bad guy.

I don't know anything about your technogigamancers and whatnot. Damn kids, get out of my game. But I have to imagine any rigger worth his salt will have disconnected anything wireless well beforehand (probably even the radio, just in case).

Magic is a problem. Direct spells not so much, thanks to OR, but indirect spells can be. A combination of good driving and magic support can help reduce those. Then you just need someone able to fight spirits. Best answer is spirits of your own. Spirits you can get faster, stronger and more specialized. Plus just having a mage available to disrupt spirits is a super plus.

Really, beat cops should not be a serious threat to a proper runner team. They should just be a delay. They keep the team busy, distracted or misdirected long enough for the big guns to come out.

[Cheops]

Edit: Not worth it anymore. Can't believe I got myself all worked up about Larme's response. I take my amazing unfairness and back out of this one. I will point out that I did offer some solutions on how to get away. My position is solely that any car chase with Lone Star in which you are exchanging bullets with them is suicidal. I didn't even bother to mention AV rockets but whatever Larme you win.

[Earlydawn]

This scenario reeks of an assumed roving patrol of virtual runner killers that merely stalk the city, irregardless of corporate borders and chase feasibility, simply waiting to atomize runners. That, of course, is strictly bullshit. I think you're ignoring Larme's points in favor of "the rules support my argument".

If you were Lone Star, would you really have all these assets rolling around waiting for a once-a-quarter event to materialize? You're a corporation, not a public sector law enforcement agency, and you, on average, have less then zero incentive to stop most incidents that you confirm as shadowruns, since probability states that they're against an opponent company. Remember, once they take a shortcut through the Evo branch office campus and you start firing 40mm, you might as well be North Korea launching missiles into downtown Tokyo. You are, at best, firing your entire operational unit and most of your leadership, and at worst, prompting a corporate court case.

It's not about rolls, it's about context. In the ideal, non-balkinized world you're describing, there's no room for runners to survive anyway.

[kzt]

This is the world where you have street gangs launch attacks in downtown, where go gangs attack people in the downtown expressways. Yes, they will have teams of killers ready to go, and armed drones in the air. Dead children of taxpayers are kind of things that piss off the people who they need to keep happy so they keep getting their contract renewed. Dead cops are expensive. Dead citizens are expensive. Dead scum are free.

LS will kill as many terrorists and street scum via whatever means are most expeditious if the scum make them look bad or might cost them money.

[Larme]

Edit: Not worth it anymore. Can't believe I got myself all worked up about Larme's response. I take my amazing unfairness and back out of this one. I will point out that I did offer some solutions on how to get away. My position is solely that any car chase with Lone Star in which you are exchanging bullets with them is suicidal. I didn't even bother to mention AV rockets but whatever Larme you win.

That's the thing -- what book tells you that they bring AV rockets to try and kill someone who just committed a burglary? I'm sure the AV rockets would show up along with the FRT, but again, you have to do something BIG to summon the FRT. You haven't been arguing. You have a predetermined conclusion -- the Star always wins. And as the GM, you will change the situation every time so that they win. That's called railroading, it's called fiat, it's called finger up the players' asses. I don't think I'd play in that kind of game. The police, in a sane world, have a scaled response. If you break out the force 8 spirits and the machine guns and such, yeah you're fucked. But if it's just a car chase and you shoot down their drones and crash their squad cars with Cut Off, they don't try to splatter your guts right away. If every car chase involved the maximum force, they'd lose their contract in a week or two because of all the collateral damage, and the citizens living in fear of stray ordnance. I don't think it works that way.

I'm not disagreeing with you that, when the players are dumb and call up a huge police response, they're dead meat. But you seem to think that every tangle with the police automatically invokes that much force. If 2 beat cops try to stop us, and we taser them and drive off, we'll be long gone before any heavy hitters arrive, at least in any zone below AA. It's not instant doom. If you can point to a book that reinforces your position, I'll concede it. But to me, it just sounds like giving the players a bad time because of a modified, non-canon version of omnipotent law enforcement. Seriously, if law enforcement was as powerful and unforgiving as you say, then the entire game would go up in smoke because Shadowrunning would just be a dumb idea. I'm not even sure what the basis for our disagreement is, and there's a chance I've been attacking a straw man. Do you really argue that a 13+ vehicle and drones force is the natural, immediate, inescapable response that appears every time you trade shots with the cops? Because if that's not your position, then I'm probably knocking down straw men.

[Cheops]

Larme. You have been advocating using violence (knocking cops unconcious and driving their cars off the road) since this discussion started. I agreed with Bob's solution to escaping, and kzt and I both presented some non-violent means of escaping. You are the one who has been advocating the runners using violent means and I've been pointing out that that will get the cops riled up to the point where they will use such means and tactics.

Larme: Any runners who get arrested are stupid. Any street sam can wipe out 12 cops a round. Their stats are weeny.
Cheops: Yes but then you'll have a ton of angry cops chasing after you.
Larme: That's why you always have a getaway driver.
Cheops: Runners can't out-run the cops because of how the rules work (rules examples given).
Larme: Any rigger worth his pay can take out 6 cop cars a round.
Cheops: Yes but now you have potentially killed or injured cops and pissed them off. They will kill you if needs be.
Larme: You're so unfair. Why do you railroad?

Don't know what cops are like in sunny happy Larme world but most cops in the real world take big exception to one of their own being attacked or killed.

[Cheops]

This is the world where you have street gangs launch attacks in downtown, where go gangs attack people in the downtown expressways. Yes, they will have teams of killers ready to go, and armed drones in the air. Dead children of taxpayers are kind of things that piss off the people who they need to keep happy so they keep getting their contract renewed. Dead cops are expensive. Dead citizens are expensive. Dead scum are free.

LS will kill as many terrorists and street scum via whatever means are most expeditious if the scum make them look bad or might cost them money.

QFT

[Critias]

This is the world where you have street gangs launch attacks in downtown, where go gangs attack people in the downtown expressways.

So how do you have those things going on, if Lonestar has these crack teams of hunter-killer combat drivers, drones, and ready-to-summon-a-jillion-spirits, all just hanging around waiting to smash face, going out of their way to target the next group of four or five troublemakers to come along?

It's because the game world has room for roving Mad Max gangs of psycho killers on street bikes that Shadowrunners can exist. There are gaping holes in law enforcement in the Shadowrun universe, and it's those gaping holes that let your average team of PCs get away with what they get away with, and feel awesome in the meantime. Tangling with the Star isn't an automatic win, but it shouldn't be an automatic lose, either. The longer it goes on for, the more time you give them to get their shit together, the longer the odds get against you... but it's not as bleak and unstoppable a situation as some of you are presenting.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

No, you wouldn't. It's an emergency system that has to work when the building has no power. Putting control of the sprinklers on the matrix makes them less effective, and would be a serious safety hazard.

I should say that it would be a dual control, the thermal foil in the sprinkler heads and the matrix controls as an emergency cut off. I think that any building losing complete power would be rare, location battery backups are what I would be most concerned about as a runner.

Area Knowledge: Seattle Parking Garages? It's that or end up in one without a (meta-)human traversable storm drain. Also any public parking garage is wide open to LEO scrutiny. The cop rigger who's been shadowing you through GridGuide will have the camera feeds and blueprints in front of him the second you cross the threshold.

The other items in your post all involve footwork (pre-planning) which is something I assume any player advocating car chases with cops hasn't done. At least not when their "strategy" seems to hinge on "thinning them out".

Gotta love that Retinal Display with a map chip of your favorite local plex.

I don't advocate car chases with LEO's (I really don't) but if you play the averages sooner or later it is going to happen. When it does...the pre-run legwork is going to save your hoop. What is that old saying...'Luck is the residue of planning!'

When I first started working on my SLC SR book, I called up the SLCPD after a few transfers I got to an officer who told me that the department had XXXX number of police officers employed (not counting support staff) and their civilian to officer formula. I told him that I was writing a fiction book and I wanted to get a feel for how many officers would be available for a big event. He was a rather chatty fellow and told me how many officers are on patrol during an average shift (holidays and special events not withstanding). Armed with that information I was able to put together a pretty decent ballpark figure. I reduced the actual number of boots on the ground because of the prevalence of drones.

If you can't break pursuit within 15 rounds (not minutes...rounds), I think that you are hosed.

Magical alternatives were suggested and I think that is a great idea...you can't look at this as a solely electronic/manpower situation. But magic for SR4 is not my strong suit and my thinking is derived from SR3 experience (I have not played or run SR4).

[Cheops]

And as I pointed out there have been some examples of ways to avoid auto-lose. Problem is none of them involve blasting your way free so they've been ignored.

Edit: Bob's post came up while I was typing mine.

Bob would it be possible for you to share this document you are putting together? Or would it spoil things for your players? I've been interested in talking to actual cops about "boots on the ground" but have no contacts so I didn't want to run into a "spying" type situation.

I like that a real world cop has basically led you to conclude that anyone has 45 seconds before they are hooped.

Magic is indeed a pretty good way to go in SR4 as well. Lone Star is much more constrained in that area so they won't be able to overwhelm you as badly. Again trying to do so without masking is asking for trouble since it will be easily spotted.

Planning and forethough is definitely the best way to disentangle yourself from this situation. Switching vehicles, submersible vehicles, planning your escape route to have lots of covered areas so that you break aerial contact.

[Larme]

And as I pointed out there have been some examples of ways to avoid auto-lose. Problem is none of them involve blasting your way free so they've been ignored.

Your premise was, you can't fight the cops no matter what. That's why I'm trying to disprove. Stating ways you can escape from them without fighting is merely a restatement of your conclusion, not support for your argument. I'm ignoring alternate ways to get around police because that's not what we disagree about. The existence or nonexistence of alternate means neither proves nor disproves the futility of fighting them. It maybe contradicts what I was saying about the unstoppable police force being unfair to the players, but that's really not the central issue. I can agree with the 15 rounds figure, by then you'll have attracted enough tradition that you're hosed. But if you're even halfway good, you should be able to ditch the cops in half that time or less. Maybe you play lower power games and your characters would not start out powerful enough to do that, which is why you thought that people shooting out of windows would automatically die, and the rigger would be unable to evade called shots against his tires. But I'm telling you that it is well within 400 BP limits to create characters who can accomplish an escape in less than 15 rounds as long as you don't self-gimp.

[Cheops]

Sure, in tactical combat 15 rounds is an eternity in SR. I assumed that by "hoping in our getaway car" that meant we switched to the Chase Combat rules which are 1 min turns. Hence my earlier comment of "do you let them take 20 rounds in between each chase round." It sounds like you just use the tactical combat rules to resolve chases. In which case yes no chase will ever last longer than 6 seconds let alone 45.

Theoretically however, the chase rules should be used since that is what they are for. What your table does is irrelevant to a general discussion on a public forum. Rules and fluff as written need to be abided by as much as possible for us to have any common ground in our discussions. Otherwise you need to clearly state how your group does things and that it is in your opinion only not as it is written in the books.

I feel pretty justified in my argument using the chase combat rules. Using tactical combat rules is completely different.

PS: the rules situation I created earlier was in Chase Combat rules (1 min rounds) so I naturally assumed that's what you were talking about as well.

[nezumi]

Indeed, Bob, I'd be quite interested in seeing what you're working on.

I wouldn't say that you're guaranteed dead after 45 seconds. Thare are further conditions worth considering. 45 seconds in an AAA zone seriously limits your options, but 45 seconds in a D area isn't going to seriously increase the number of cops close enough to do anything useful. And there's always that possibility that the group in question is just delaying until the second rigger swings by in his thunderbird (in which case, the 45 second rule is a question of options being limited, not guaranteed death or capture).

[Cheops]

Not guaranteed dead no. After 45 seconds your chances of getting arrested or dying increase dramatically. Shooting at the cops drastically increases the chances of the latter. According to New Seattle the response times are much slower in D neighborhoods but it gets to the Citymasters loaded with SWAT teams much faster.

AAA neighborhood: "Excuse me citizen, you have been travelling in excess of the speed limit for several minutes now. We kindly ask that you pull over so we can speak."

D rated neighborhood: "Pull over before we shoot your tires out asshole!"

Second rigger pulling by in T-Bird (good idea) also generally involves some forethought and planning and would again more likely fall into the camp of making an escape without knocking unconcious/sideswiping all the cops.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

And as I pointed out there have been some examples of ways to avoid auto-lose. Problem is none of them involve blasting your way free so they've been ignored.

Edit: Bob's post came up while I was typing mine.

Bob would it be possible for you to share this document you are putting together? Or would it spoil things for your players? I've been interested in talking to actual cops about "boots on the ground" but have no contacts so I didn't want to run into a "spying" type situation.

I like that a real world cop has basically led you to conclude that anyone has 45 seconds before they are hooped.

Magic is indeed a pretty good way to go in SR4 as well. Lone Star is much more constrained in that area so they won't be able to overwhelm you as badly. Again trying to do so without masking is asking for trouble since it will be easily spotted.

Planning and forethough is definitely the best way to disentangle yourself from this situation. Switching vehicles, submersible vehicles, planning your escape route to have lots of covered areas so that you break aerial contact.

I am planning on putting it online as a PDF, so it will be available for anyone interested. (Working on the downtown map right now.)

That is 45 seconds from the start of the pursuit until the people running are no longer going to be to evade...in Shadowrun between 0100 to 0500 hours in security zones rated between AAA and A. Please don't consider this to be a proclamation of scientific fact.

[Cheops]

No but it provides a good baseline for the rest of us to build off of.