The Missing Ingredient is Crime, Shadowrun has a giant gaping omission Options

[Cheops]

I am going to concede that you have altered my opinion. Shadowrun as a genre...is...Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

/signed

[AWOL_Seraphim]

I think the OP makes very valid points, but I do not share his opinion. I have never played SR1, but from what I vaguely remember in SR2 and SR3 (back in high school) and what I see in SR4, crime-themed campaigns is at least partially the name of the game. Of course, other campaign concepts were introduced at some point, such as DocWagon HTR teams, news reporters, etc., but the default setting was about criminal elements in a society both futuristic and high fantasy. However, the game is not just about your average criminal. No, in my opinion, it was about a new kind of criminal: the Neo-Anarchist. Other posters have very aptly summarized the major changes from, say, the 1990s to the 2070s: magic, cybertech, megacorps, Z-zones, etc., and I believe one of the natural consequences of those changes would be a change in the kind of people you find in the underworld. To make a long story short, I think the OP should just play a "Godfather 2070" campaign and his problem would be solved! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Of course, I also realize that the game could be a lot grimmer and grittier, but to a certain degree, I think it's ultimately a lost cause. Not because of the game: I believe Shadowrun is one of those games where any and all story ideas can work, bar none. No, the problem is a lot of us, the gamers. As a gamemaster, I have spent the last 10 years running campaigns with White Wolf's überserious, "playing make-believe and rolling dice while eating pretzels and drinking beer/Mountain Dew really is a form of High Art" World of Darkness games* and to a certain extent, I have partly dropped the "theme and mood" idea because my players are just like any other gamer: if they decide they just want to have some light-hearted fun this week, I can't really keep them from enjoying themselves. If the group's physical adept decides he wants to scream "Killing Hand!" à la Street Fighter 2** when he uses said power tonight, I can join the fun or I can switch from GM to Drill Sergeant (which would ruin everybody's fun, including mine.) If a table wants to tell the grim story of the rise and fall of a crime syndicate, I strongly urge them to do so, but not every table is like that. Some people will always prefer hot-pink mohawks, cowboy hats and cat-girls, and in my opinion, it's just as good.

*Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the World of Darkness games, especially Mage: the Ascension. I just think the gamemaster (... er, I mean storyteller) sections of White Wolf's core books are extremely pretentious.
**This has really happened in a one-shot SR game I ran a few months ago. One player wanted to play a physical adept with Killing Hands, however, instead of just saying something boring like "I punch him using Killing Hands", he would designate an enemy, mime his attack and, with his best "Ken/Ryu" impression, scream "Killing Hands!" for a karate chop, "Killing Feet!" for a kick, or even "Jumping Killing Feet!" for a flying kick. He was hilarious!

[nezumi]

No, the motorcycle is just a necessary component of that world, it's not the objective. Maybe it was in 1947, but it isn't today. Some are guys who live to ride. There are a fair number of "motorcycle gang members' who essentially ride when they have to. The critical elements is that they are very serious criminals, they mostly have prison time and records, and they are willing to do all the crappy things needed to get into the group and then are willing to support the group 100%. I'd be more much afraid of having pissed off one of the OMGs than the traditional gangs like the Crips, Bloods or Gangster Disciples.

edit:
Are you complaining because I used the word 'motorcycle bum', or are you somehow saying that they have other significant job options, and show long-term loyalty because they're just badasses?

[kzt]

You have it backwards. You don't join an OMG and suddenly find you are a criminal. Instead you ARE a criminal, usually with some serious prison time, who joins an OMG. And after a testing, weeding out and extensive background verification process (and I mean extensive) you might be allowed to become an actual member. It's isn't teens looking for a father that they want, they are looking for guys who are in their late 20s and 30s who want to belong and have shown they can be trusted.

People always have other choices. You can become a fry cook. Hell, there was the guy who became chairman of Smith and Wesson despite his decade+ inside after a bank robbery conviction (though that didn't work out...). I know of a guy who spent time at Club Fed who runs his own business making and selling very high quality tactical gear. And if you didn't notice that absolutely NONE of the images of his gear show real guns, ordinance or ammunition you wouldn't be able to tell.

OMGs look for guys who WANT to be criminals and are capable of being very effective criminals.

[nezumi]

The people you named are really the exception to the rule. The vast, vast majority of people with a felony conviction are never going to get a legal job paying more than $50k, and even that is if they're very lucky, very hard working, and pretty smart. Generally being a criminal is not a good long-term career choice. If you have a felony, though, the only real, money-making option is to continue criminal activity - there is money in crime, if you're good enough to get it.

And that's my point - someone currently in Hell's Angels (as in, deep enough to actually be a criminal, a character someone might play in Shadowrun) HAS NO OTHER OPTIONS aside from crime. Drug running pays. Pimping pays. Shooting dudes pays. Legal work does not. And should he ever be caught without his gang, the neighboring gangs are going to tear him up, so if he's in crime, he's in crime with the guys he's with right now, forever. He has no other viable options.

Shadowrunners almost always have significant viable options available. Until you take away those other viable options, and penalize back-stabbing, the idea of the hard-core criminal shadowrun group for a long campaign becomes difficult at best.

[hyzmarca]

There is also a vast difference between speeding and kidnapping/robbery/murder. The first is a misdemeanour and is punishable by a fine. The latter are felonies and punishable with far worse. Runners are hardened criminals because they routinely commit felonies.

Speeding is an infraction, not a misdemeanour. The difference is rather important in that infractions aren't crimes, though the accused has the same legal protections regardless.

/me strips down to a kilt , his beard and a short sword

/me screams

"This is Shadowrun!"

BlueMax

No, no. You're doing it wrong. Try like this.

THIS! IS! SHADOWRUN!

The people you named are really the exception to the rule. The vast, vast majority of people with a felony conviction are never going to get a legal job paying more than $50k, and even that is if they're very lucky, very hard working, and pretty smart. Generally being a criminal is not a good long-term career choice. If you have a felony, though, the only real, money-making option is to continue criminal activity - there is money in crime, if you're good enough to get it.

And that's my point - someone currently in Hell's Angels (as in, deep enough to actually be a criminal, a character someone might play in Shadowrun) HAS NO OTHER OPTIONS aside from crime. Drug running pays. Pimping pays. Shooting dudes pays. Legal work does not. And should he ever be caught without his gang, the neighboring gangs are going to tear him up, so if he's in crime, he's in crime with the guys he's with right now, forever. He has no other viable options.

Shadowrunners almost always have significant viable options available. Until you take away those other viable options, and penalize back-stabbing, the idea of the hard-core criminal shadowrun group for a long campaign becomes difficult at best.

You can also get a felony conviction expunged (in which case it legally didn't happen) or sealed (in which case it happened, but no one would know about it), get your civil rights restored (in which case the conviction is still on the record but you can vote and own guns), or get a pardon from the appropriate Chief Executive.

[Larme]

No, no. You're doing it wrong. Try like this.

THIS! IS! SHADOWRUN!

Fail. You forgot to kick someone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

You can also get a felony conviction expunged (in which case it legally didn't happen) or sealed (in which case it happened, but no one would know about it), get your civil rights restored (in which case the conviction is still on the record but you can vote and own guns), or get a pardon from the appropriate Chief Executive.

You could also get bitten by a radioactive spider and get super powers. That doesn't mean it happens for most criminals, especially the vast majority who are fresh out of prison and realize they can't get a job RIGHT NOW that will cover rent and food.

[Critias]

There's always that "don't commit a felony in the first place, if you don't want to fuck up your life" option, too. I hear that works for a few people.

[kzt]

You could also get bitten by a radioactive spider and get super powers. That doesn't mean it happens for most criminals, especially the vast majority who are fresh out of prison and realize they can't get a job RIGHT NOW that will cover rent and food.

Most of them have NEVER had a job that will cover rent and food. Part of the deal with being a criminal is that that is what you do and you have contempt for the sheep who actually work.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Most of them have NEVER had a job that will cover rent and food. Part of the deal with being a criminal is that that is what you do and you have contempt for the sheep who actually work.

IMO...a lot of them think that they are owed something because life for them wasn't the ideal. The people in the burbs had it given to them, or they had all the breaks, while I was stuck with the short straw. FFL attitude...it wasn't my fault, I was a victim.

[kzt]

it wasn't my fault, I was a victim.

According to a book I read recently that is pretty much universal. Pretty much nobody is the villain in their own life story. He gave an example of guy in for many rapes, who explained that he had asked them nicely for sex, and only attacked them if they turned him down. So it wasn't his fault, it was their fault as they had no right to turn down a guy like him.

[nezumi]

There's always that "don't commit a felony in the first place, if you don't want to fuck up your life" option, too. I hear that works for a few people.

True, but makes for an extremely boring Shadowrun character, doesn't it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True, but makes for an extremely boring Shadowrun character, doesn't it?

It is definitely a different style of Shadowrun if you are the SINner trying to do the right thing... Like cops, paramedics, reporters, or even the Rocker type of Archetypes...

[Cheops]

Speeding is an infraction, not a misdemeanour. The difference is rather important in that infractions aren't crimes, though the accused has the same legal protections regardless.

You can also get a felony conviction expunged (in which case it legally didn't happen) or sealed (in which case it happened, but no one would know about it), get your civil rights restored (in which case the conviction is still on the record but you can vote and own guns), or get a pardon from the appropriate Chief Executive.

Ahh okay. Wasn't sure where speeding rated but I was darn sure it wasn't on the same scale as everything else a runner does. Misdemeanour was the lowest one I knew short of by-laws and didn't think that speeding was on that low a level. (I don't drive at all so I don't know how all those laws work -- shocking for someone my age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) )

This all brings up an interesting point. Why don't runners have legal SINs (especially after Crash 2.0)? If they conduct most of their business with fake SINs that should give them some degree of anonymity (sp?) while still letting them have legal protection. At least in the UCAS that'd be a pretty good thing: no arbitrary search and seizure, can't be detained without charges being pressed, right to legal representation, habeus corpus, righ to file suit against unlawful arrest. Sure they'd still be in deep trouble for the crimes they committed (including using fake IDs) but at least they can't be as poorly treated as a SINless (forced implantation, torture, abuse, blackmail, entrapment, etc).

[Larme]

Ahh okay. Wasn't sure where speeding rated but I was darn sure it wasn't on the same scale as everything else a runner does. Misdemeanour was the lowest one I knew short of by-laws and didn't think that speeding was on that low a level. (I don't drive at all so I don't know how all those laws work -- shocking for someone my age (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) )

Governments don't have bylaws, those are for corporations and clubs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

This all brings up an interesting point. Why don't runners have legal SINs (especially after Crash 2.0)? If they conduct most of their business with fake SINs that should give them some degree of anonymity (sp?) while still letting them have legal protection. At least in the UCAS that'd be a pretty good thing: no arbitrary search and seizure, can't be detained without charges being pressed, right to legal representation, habeus corpus, righ to file suit against unlawful arrest. Sure they'd still be in deep trouble for the crimes they committed (including using fake IDs) but at least they can't be as poorly treated as a SINless (forced implantation, torture, abuse, blackmail, entrapment, etc).

Having a legal SIN means they know who you are. And having legal rights doesn't mean squat when you're actually breaking the law. Sure, they can't search you for no reason, but they can if they catch you in crime. Random searches are not a Shadowrunner's biggest worry, since the most they'll probably do is confiscate your contraband if you're SINless. Who wants to do all that paperwork? Just take the loot and leave.

And sure, you can sue to get out of jail, and they can't summarily execute you. That would be nice if you were a real person, but not so much for a character. In practice it would take you years to get out of jail, and that's if you didn't actually do it, which you probably did. Even if you did get out, you would have already gone on to another character, unless the entire team was apprehended. The legal protections afforded by the Constitution actually suck pretty hard if you're guilty. Courts bend over backwards to admit evidence of guilt, and once it's in, you're gone. You've got a slim chance to get off if they do an unreasonable search or seizure, but the vast majority of warrantless searches are reasonable, so there you go. Not likely to matter.

IMO, it's better to be SINless, because that means the cops don't have to put you in jail and process you and such. If they catch you, you can bribe them, or agree to do them a favor, and they'll let you go. As long as you haven't made a big deal about it where the media knows about you and the cops would get in trouble if they let you go, they've got no real incentive to put you away. You don't exist, and catching nonexistent people isn't good for their bottom line.

[Cheops]

Having a legal SIN means they know who you are. And having legal rights doesn't mean squat when you're actually breaking the law. Sure, they can't search you for no reason, but they can if they catch you in crime. Random searches are not a Shadowrunner's biggest worry, since the most they'll probably do is confiscate your contraband if you're SINless. Who wants to do all that paperwork? Just take the loot and leave.

And sure, you can sue to get out of jail, and they can't summarily execute you. That would be nice if you were a real person, but not so much for a character. In practice it would take you years to get out of jail, and that's if you didn't actually do it, which you probably did. Even if you did get out, you would have already gone on to another character, unless the entire team was apprehended. The legal protections afforded by the Constitution actually suck pretty hard if you're guilty. Courts bend over backwards to admit evidence of guilt, and once it's in, you're gone. You've got a slim chance to get off if they do an unreasonable search or seizure, but the vast majority of warrantless searches are reasonable, so there you go. Not likely to matter.

IMO, it's better to be SINless, because that means the cops don't have to put you in jail and process you and such. If they catch you, you can bribe them, or agree to do them a favor, and they'll let you go. As long as you haven't made a big deal about it where the media knows about you and the cops would get in trouble if they let you go, they've got no real incentive to put you away. You don't exist, and catching nonexistent people isn't good for their bottom line.

I guess this comes down to our play differences again Larme. I have had character go up for their term and then be released before the campaign ends. It's not that uncommon espeically if you do use stuff like the training rules. A couple of months can go by pretty fast. Also if they are caught doing the crime then yes they are hooped. However, they're not very good if they get caught doing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Usually their problems are in the follow up investigations. I can think of a few times where the cops having to wait for a warrant would have given the group time to ditch some incriminating evidence. (and even sealed warrants if such a thing exists should be easy for a hacker to spot)

Also who says someone with a SIN can't do a favour for the Star? "Let me go and I'll bring in the Mayan Cutter." Or giving them a scrap of info on some syndicate you don't like that'll help them make arrests. Sure you'll get a point of Notoriety but them's the breaks. I guess again this is where I have more of a Crime genre than you -- people do rat others out frequently and while your rep will take a hit it doesn't spell the end of your career (lay low for a while, skip town, beat up anyone who calls you a rat, etc). This can lead to some pretty interesting role-playing.

Again we seem to play with a little more attachment to our characters than your group. I'm of the opinion that it is a bigger deterrent to crime if you know that you can be tortured and killed on a whim. This means that when I play a character I play him as if he doesn't want this to happen to him (unless I am playing a character that wouldn't be bothered by it). If the choice is a prison term or torture they'll choose prison -- it always give me the option of playing him again when 2080 rolls around (and probably with a TON of contacts afterwards)! I'd rather know that my character is alive while I play a different one than go down in a blaze of glory.

PS: This isn't meant as an attack on your playstyle. I'm just trying to contrast the differences. I've never played at your table so I don't know how you guys play. I apologize in advance if I offended you.

[kzt]

IMO, it's better to be SINless, because that means the cops don't have to put you in jail and process you and such. If they catch you, you can bribe them, or agree to do them a favor, and they'll let you go. As long as you haven't made a big deal about it where the media knows about you and the cops would get in trouble if they let you go, they've got no real incentive to put you away. You don't exist, and catching nonexistent people isn't good for their bottom line.

It depends on how you view the world.

For example, a SINless person can't open an bank account, which is needed to do much of anything involving electronic money. So if the bank that has your money were to discover (via the wonderful spotting a fake ID rules) that you used a fake ID they can just confiscate your money "pending investigation". "Please visit the corporate offices of Banko Securitad en Medellín in Columbia in person so we can examine your ID and attempt to resolve this. Have a Nice Day."

[Larme]

I guess this comes down to our play differences again Larme. I have had character go up for their term and then be released before the campaign ends. It's not that uncommon espeically if you do use stuff like the training rules. A couple of months can go by pretty fast. Also if they are caught doing the crime then yes they are hooped. However, they're not very good if they get caught doing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Usually their problems are in the follow up investigations. I can think of a few times where the cops having to wait for a warrant would have given the group time to ditch some incriminating evidence. (and even sealed warrants if such a thing exists should be easy for a hacker to spot)

If they've found out where you live and you're getting a warrant, you're fucked anyway. Pay someone to burn your real SIN and disappear. Which is exactly what you'd do if you had no SIN. Except that they'd never find where you live if you live in the Barrens, because they can't safely do any investigation in a Z-zone. Not unless you had a SIN which left a paper trail. Which is basically like painting a bullseye on your head.

Also who says someone with a SIN can't do a favour for the Star? "Let me go and I'll bring in the Mayan Cutter." Or giving them a scrap of info on some syndicate you don't like that'll help them make arrests. Sure you'll get a point of Notoriety but them's the breaks. I guess again this is where I have more of a Crime genre than you -- people do rat others out frequently and while your rep will take a hit it doesn't spell the end of your career (lay low for a while, skip town, beat up anyone who calls you a rat, etc). This can lead to some pretty interesting role-playing.

The cops keep records. They find a suspect, they scan him. There's a record of that scan. They interrogate him. There's a record of that interrogation. There's a file, where they put all the evidence. They can't just erase it all, not without a very high level coverup. Chances are, if you're SINNed and they nab you, they're not letting go. Their contract with the jurisdiction is probably quite clear about what happens if corruption is too rampant, and if they're caught letting valid investigatory targets go, that's going to cost them dearly. SINless, on the other hand, are not valid investigatory targets. They're not in the system. You don't bother with them unless they're part of some really high profile incident. If you catch them, there's no record, you could kill them or let them go or take a bribe, and nobody cares.

Again we seem to play with a little more attachment to our characters than your group. I'm of the opinion that it is a bigger deterrent to crime if you know that you can be tortured and killed on a whim. This means that when I play a character I play him as if he doesn't want this to happen to him (unless I am playing a character that wouldn't be bothered by it). If the choice is a prison term or torture they'll choose prison -- it always give me the option of playing him again when 2080 rolls around (and probably with a TON of contacts afterwards)! I'd rather know that my character is alive while I play a different one than go down in a blaze of glory.

Bah, rather live in jail than die in a blaze of glory? That's just sad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It depends on how you view the world.

For example, a SINless person can't open an bank account, which is needed to do much of anything involving electronic money. So if the bank that has your money were to discover (via the wonderful spotting a fake ID rules) that you used a fake ID they can just confiscate your money "pending investigation". "Please visit the corporate offices of Banko Securitad en Medellín in Columbia in person so we can examine your ID and attempt to resolve this. Have a Nice Day."

I'm sure there are banks that welcome suspect IDs. After all, where else would corporate robber barons stash their ill gotten gains? Just like there's a huge economy in hiring Shadowrunners, there's a huge infrastructure to support shadow biz. Shadow banks don't get taken down because the ones in charge of taking them down would probably have money hidden in similar shady places. If you took down those banks, where would you keep your stuff? Don't make the mistake of thinking of Shadowrun as a future vision of today. That's the OP's entire fallacy. Shadowrun is a different world, one in which "law and order" is a joke people tell. Law and order is nothing more than the means by which the police contractors make money. There are no more underlying principles of truth and justice. Social stability is a means to an end, not an end in itself, and it loses out whenever enough money is at stake.

[kzt]

I'm sure there are banks that welcome suspect IDs. After all, where else would corporate robber barons stash their ill gotten gains? Just like there's a huge economy in hiring Shadowrunners, there's a huge infrastructure to support shadow biz. Shadow banks don't get taken down because the ones in charge of taking them down would probably have money hidden in similar shady places. If you took down those banks, where would you keep your stuff? Don't make the mistake of thinking of Shadowrun as a future vision of today. That's the OP's entire fallacy. Shadowrun is a different world, one in which "law and order" is a joke people tell. Law and order is nothing more than the means by which the police contractors make money. There are no more underlying principles of truth and justice. Social stability is a means to an end, not an end in itself, and it loses out whenever enough money is at stake.

Well, if you are using a bank in Medellin and don't live down the street that should be a clue...

And you are right, but it goes further. Any bank that welcomes suspect money will have drawbacks. Essentially you are banking with the Mafia or the Yakuza, not a Swiss banker. There are certain options they have to increase profits that might not be utilized by the Swiss. And like dealing with any arm of organized crime, you can't file a complaint with the better business bureau or the police. Well, you can, but it isn't likely to result in anything other then your demise.

[Cheops]

The cops keep records. They find a suspect, they scan him. There's a record of that scan. They interrogate him. There's a record of that interrogation. There's a file, where they put all the evidence. They can't just erase it all, not without a very high level coverup. Chances are, if you're SINNed and they nab you, they're not letting go. Their contract with the jurisdiction is probably quite clear about what happens if corruption is too rampant, and if they're caught letting valid investigatory targets go, that's going to cost them dearly. SINless, on the other hand, are not valid investigatory targets. They're not in the system. You don't bother with them unless they're part of some really high profile incident. If you catch them, there's no record, you could kill them or let them go or take a bribe, and nobody cares.



Bah, rather live in jail than die in a blaze of glory? That's just sad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually everything you said about a SINner applies to a SINless. According to the fluff as soon as the catch you they give you a Criminal SIN. Now they are in the system and all those files still exist. Of course none of that happens until they've beaten whatever info they want out of you or blackmailed you into doing whatever they want. The only thing standing beside you and whatever the arresting authority wants to do to you are the human rights watchdogs. Whereas with a SIN you are guaranteed basic human rights and maybe more depending on your country of registration. I'm not saying that being a SINner is the only way to go but it seems to afford you more protection than being SINless.

Yeah, I'd rather leave that blaze of glory stuff for D&D or Earthdawn (I'd say Exalted too but you don't really die in that one). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually everything you said about a SINner applies to a SINless. According to the fluff as soon as the catch you they give you a Criminal SIN. Now they are in the system and all those files still exist. Of course none of that happens until they've beaten whatever info they want out of you or blackmailed you into doing whatever they want. The only thing standing beside you and whatever the arresting authority wants to do to you are the human rights watchdogs. Whereas with a SIN you are guaranteed basic human rights and maybe more depending on your country of registration. I'm not saying that being a SINner is the only way to go but it seems to afford you more protection than being SINless.

Yeah, I'd rather leave that blaze of glory stuff for D&D or Earthdawn (I'd say Exalted too but you don't really die in that one). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It is not a given that you ALWAYS acquire a Criminal Sin when caught... depends upon who catches you , and whether they actually want to go tot he trouble of processing you... the aforementioned bribes/favors could circumvent that entirely...

Just Saying...

[Larme]

It is not a given that you ALWAYS acquire a Criminal Sin when caught... depends upon who catches you , and whether they actually want to go tot he trouble of processing you... the aforementioned bribes/favors could circumvent that entirely...

Just Saying...

Right, that's what I was going to say. They're supposed to give you a criminal SIN, but if they don't, who's to know? There's no record of them catching you because there was no SIN to scan when they chucked you into the squad car. You're a non-person until they decide you're more valuable in their hands than not. Now, maybe the norm is that they give you a criminal SIN, but maybe if you've got influential friends, or are more valuable free than in prison, they might forget to. Not that they couldn't let you go if you had a real SIN, it would just be harder and take a lot more work and be a lot riskier, so they're less likely to do it.

But seriously, don't get caught (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I've never had a shadowrunner caught by the police because I always flee into the Barrens and they give up. You have to fuck up bigtime to get pinched. Or be a major weakling... If you look at the "grunts" in the book, standard beat cops are absolute wussies, a good streetsam could take down a dozen of them in one turn--an "arrest" for any team with a good sammy should immediately turn into a bunch of unconscious cops and the team fleeing the scene. You either have to be weak, or get caught unprepared, or do something so dumb that the FRT or SWAT come in. So, even if a SIN was an advantage with the law, once you're within the law's grasp you should get "DUMBASS" tatoo'd on your forehead anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cheops]

Yeah realized while out grocery shopping that my language was a bit strong on that last post. What I was meaning is that being SINless doesn' mean that they can't keep files on you. I was refuting the earlier claim that SINners are easier to track than SINless once someone is looking for you.

Usually my groups tend to get caught by the police as a result of trying to get away from the corporate security forces. Normally they are too worried about the heavily armed corp squads to worry about the cops until a couple cars show up then they pack it in. Again, more likely to get better treatment from the Star (and easier for human rights watchdogs to track) than get picked up by whoever they just hit. Although there was that one time where another runner team attacked them first in a public park so the group just went quietly when the cops showed up. Let the TM handle the SIN verification. In that case they were in the "right." Guy who got arrested for explosives possession was caught because a corp sec hacker flagged the van as stolen so the cops pulled him over for a regular check and went "OMG!"

How the hell does your group get to the Barrens? As soon as mine hits the highway in a chase with the Star they know it is over. At the very least all it takes is some squad cars to clear up a section of the highway and then a sniper blimp to take out their tires. Car chase through the side streets doesn't usually go so well either since higher numbers wins that battle even faster than on the highway. (And in case you are wondering I play my NPCs the same as I would my characters -- they don't go as all out in car chases as the PCs do because they have more to lose)

Assaulting cops isn't always the best way to go either. Especially with the biofiber underwear now. You will get heavier stuff coming down on you toute suite. At the very least a high-threat medical response team (yay DocWagon!) if not more cops trying to figure out what happened to their buddies. Cops get very angry and vengeful when people start messing with them.

[Larme]

How the hell does your group get to the Barrens? As soon as mine hits the highway in a chase with the Star they know it is over. At the very least all it takes is some squad cars to clear up a section of the highway and then a sniper blimp to take out their tires. Car chase through the side streets doesn't usually go so well either since higher numbers wins that battle even faster than on the highway. (And in case you are wondering I play my NPCs the same as I would my characters -- they don't go as all out in car chases as the PCs do because they have more to lose)

If you're operating in a zone with any real cop presence, you're crazy not to have a getaway driver. A properly kitted out getaway vehicle has smoke projectors, and an oil slick sprayer or road strip ejector. You can't escape if there are enough pursuers, but a skilled driver will quickly crash a great many of the opposition and skip off. Of course, you've also got your morphing license plate and spoof chip so you appear to be a different vehicle. Best to also have a chameleon coating to change your paintjob too.

Assaulting cops isn't always the best way to go either. Especially with the biofiber underwear now. You will get heavier stuff coming down on you toute suite. At the very least a high-threat medical response team (yay DocWagon!) if not more cops trying to figure out what happened to their buddies. Cops get very angry and vengeful when people start messing with them.

Combat turns are fast. You can take out a squad car's worth of cops (i.e. 2 cops) in under 3 seconds. You can be gone in another 3 seconds. High security areas have response times on the order of minutes, but that's a really long time compared to how long it takes to knock out 2 cops. And with proper stealth options on your vehicle and a good Infiltration roll, they won't catch you. If you're thick enough to assume the position for the cops, you deserve what you get. There might be hell to pay if you kill them, but if you just stun them then nobody's going to get their panties in a knot.