The Missing Ingredient is Crime, Shadowrun has a giant gaping omission Options

[Cheops]

Combat turns are fast. You can take out a squad car's worth of cops (i.e. 2 cops) in under 3 seconds. You can be gone in another 3 seconds. High security areas have response times on the order of minutes, but that's a really long time compared to how long it takes to knock out 2 cops. And with proper stealth options on your vehicle and a good Infiltration roll, they won't catch you. If you're thick enough to assume the position for the cops, you deserve what you get. There might be hell to pay if you kill them, but if you just stun them then nobody's going to get their panties in a knot.

Ahh...here's one of our disconnects. I'm still using the New Seattle response times. My group doesn't get anywhere near that much time to run away. Usually there is s drone and/or astral mage in the area first monitoring it then the squad cars show up. So even if they do deal with the squad cars odds are that the Roto- or Blimp-drone just caught them in the act.

As for oil slicks and smoke screens I'll have to refresh myself on the rules and how they relate to the SR4A chase rules.

[kzt]

Yeah, LS is really big on drones. And they should be. They are cheap, fairly reliable and easily replaced.

[Cheops]

Ugh...the chase rules hurt my brain. It's a Vehicle test! No wait it's an Opposed test!!! Backwards is forwards, left is right, and twirling always twirling!

So let's make this as extreme as possible. Let's say the entire runner team fits into a Eurocar Westwind that has Smoke Projector, Oil Slick Sprayer, Engine Customization (Speed) and a Multilaunch Drone Rack with 20 microdrones of your choosing. It is going 288 down an empty highway with 21 vehicles on its side.

Let's say the cops have 6 cars, a helicopter, and 6 drones. The helicopter is an Ares Dragon going 260 and the drones are Ford LEBDs. They have 13 on their side.

So we have a Drone Rigger in an LEBD and a Rigger in an Ares Dragon against a Rigger in a Westwind. The tests are -16, -17, and +19 respectively.

Actually your Smoke Projector and Oil Slick Sprayer are irrelevant on 2 points: 1) they don't affect the air vehicles, but more importantly 2) the main factor affecting success in the rules is the number of participants. You are better off flooding the chase with drones than anything else. As far as I can tell there are no rules against what I've done. Common sense dictates otherwise and I sincerely hope there's been an errata on this. If we apply common sense here's what we get: (I give the runners 1 drone from their rack adjust the numbers according to your group)

LEBD +1 (+0 Handling, +22 vehicle advantage, -21 speed penalty), Dragon +18 (-1 Handling, +22 vehicle advantage, -3 speed penalty), Westwind -19 (+3 handling, -22 vehicle disadvantage, speed measured relative to it). Not so hot for your runners.

n.b. I feel it is okay for the Cops to have 6 drones since in the description for the LEBD it indicates so in the fluff:

Arsenal 120

In an ever-increasing effort to stretch law enforcement resources,
there has been a surge in the use of police drones, typically
coupled with car patrol units, usually mounted in a drone rack in
the back of the car.

[Larme]

I wasn't suggesting that the smoke projector would help you with chase combat, that would be pretty retarded because it does nothing for the chase rolls. What it does is provide vision mods so they can't shoot you while you try to run away.

And, the way you win chase combat is you Cut Off your opponents or hit them with oil slicks and road strips until a bunch of them crash. Also shoot their vehicles. Once you disable enough of them, you can bust out to long range and Break Off. You're right that the number of vehicles is what makes or breaks chase combat, but you're not thinking strategically. If they win by numbers, then you have to win by thinning them out.

[kzt]

That isn't how cops with air support chase people. They hang back and contain by blocking the road ahead and alternates before, while most of the supporting vehicles approach on parallel routes.

[Mr. Man]

No getaway driver is going to outrun a police radio. Depending on if and how ECM/ECCM comes into play, a police drone loaded with tracking rounds could make leaving the neighborhood of your crime impossible without extensive pre-planning.

GridGuide isn't on your side, either. Pretty much going to have cameras on every corner in AAA through B rated areas.

If you've got the gear, the skills and the luck it might even seem like you got away for a while, but if you caused enough damage and/or messed with the wrong people, the security footage and other data attached to your flight will get the CSI treatment.

IMO (informed by 3rd Ed. RAW), any runs in A or higher areas should really break down to 90% footwork and 10% execution to have any shot at success.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Getting away...

Lets say you got a hacker, he has set it up so that an automated call is going to go into 911 announcing that there are multiple bombs in three elementary schools...this takes place three minutes after a flashy pyrotechnic explosion goes off. The explosion gets their attention the call pulls them out of position to pursue you and yours. Throw in a silent alarm from something high end, jewelry store (etc.) within six blocks as you are leaving and you shouldn't even have to go over the speed limit.

Already in a high speed pursuit? Drive to the nearest public parking garage, if your hacker isn't able to take control of a parking garage security system shoot him now. Drive to the basement, the hacker trips the sprinkler system on all levels. Witnesses won't be witnessing...they are going to get out of the cold water ASAP, reduces visibility and impedes hearing. Cops are going to setup a perimeter around the garage (takes at least three minutes). While they look to cordon off foot traffic and vehicles you get out of the van sterilize it and go down the storm drain and run away. Don't use this one a lot...like do it once and then figure something else out.

Best use of the smoke screen is going into a turn in conjunction with an oil slick.

Radios cut both ways...your team did manage to steal one of the LEO's just before the run...right? Then you know where they are planning to cut you off.

Interesting thing about those cameras...they are hardwired. Pulling the plug is just a matter of putting in a fail safe (i.e. explosive) at the right location.

[kzt]

Sprinklers are mechanical. Actually heat activated. I really hate how movies show this....

[The Jake]

No getaway driver is going to outrun a police radio. Depending on if and how ECM/ECCM comes into play, a police drone loaded with tracking rounds could make leaving the neighborhood of your crime impossible without extensive pre-planning.

GridGuide isn't on your side, either. Pretty much going to have cameras on every corner in AAA through B rated areas.

If you've got the gear, the skills and the luck it might even seem like you got away for a while, but if you caused enough damage and/or messed with the wrong people, the security footage and other data attached to your flight will get the CSI treatment.

IMO (informed by 3rd Ed. RAW), any runs in A or higher areas should really break down to 90% footwork and 10% execution to have any shot at success.

I concur 100%.

- J.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Sprinklers are mechanical. Actually heat activated. I really hate how movies show this....

You think that with all of the automation that has taken place that somebody wouldn't include a system for matrix control of the sprinklers?

[DWC]

You think that with all of the automation that has taken place that somebody wouldn't include a system for matrix control of the sprinklers?

No, you wouldn't. It's an emergency system that has to work when the building has no power. Putting control of the sprinklers on the matrix makes them less effective, and would be a serious safety hazard.

[Cheops]

I wasn't suggesting that the smoke projector would help you with chase combat, that would be pretty retarded because it does nothing for the chase rolls. What it does is provide vision mods so they can't shoot you while you try to run away.

And, the way you win chase combat is you Cut Off your opponents or hit them with oil slicks and road strips until a bunch of them crash. Also shoot their vehicles. Once you disable enough of them, you can bust out to long range and Break Off. You're right that the number of vehicles is what makes or breaks chase combat, but you're not thinking strategically. If they win by numbers, then you have to win by thinning them out.

Who says I'm not thinking strategically? Sure you can take out their vehicles but again you've just forced cop cars to crash and potentially killed cops. Not a very wise decision. (Because even if you took out all the drones there is still 7 vehicles including a chopper to your 1-4)

I'll also point out that police tend to start sending more and bigger stuff at you the more of them you take out. Sure you whittled them down to 4 cop cars and the chopper but now you have armed drones and SWAT vehicles on your ass. Gets even worse when you hit the Barrens because then they can actually use their heavy artillery. AV Assault Cannon round wrecks you pretty fast.

Your best bet actually is to hope that you took something from the target corporation, tell them you have it, and tell them that you are involved in a high speed chase with the Star. If they value their asset enough they'll likely tell the Star to back off. On the other hand you just let your target know who you are... but at least you ain't going to jail!

[nezumi]

What is this assumption that a violent criminal caught in a car chase who doesn't happen to have killed any cops yet is somehow better than one where cops did crash? If you're a violent criminal flying through B-rated areas, the SWAT will be on your butt one way or another. Killing cops just makes sure they give you a little more space until then.

[Cheops]

What is this assumption that a violent criminal caught in a car chase who doesn't happen to have killed any cops yet is somehow better than one where cops did crash? If you're a violent criminal flying through B-rated areas, the SWAT will be on your butt one way or another. Killing cops just makes sure they give you a little more space until then.

At my table the cops actually try to arrest the runners first and try to not endanger the public or public goods (doing either isn't good for PR/contract renenwal). This means that they tend to have "kid gloves" at first. Unless they can 100% guarantee no innocents are harmed and minimal property damage they hang back more. Once you potentially killed a cop the kid gloves come off. So yes at my table the runner who hasn't killed a cop yet is better off than one who has.

The exception to this is your comment of violent criminal. If they've just been publicly caught in the act of conducting a fire fight or blowing up a building or some such thing then there are no kid gloves to begin with.

Most of this is obviously going to depend on the table. I don't let my runners get away with this crap. My reading of the rules and the fluff supports my view. But fluff and rules can be changed to make the game whatever you want (and hence why I'm changing my rules to SR D&D4).

[noonesshowmonkey]

Interesting OP.

To say that professional criminals are necessarily and specifically not ostentatious is true only for the most professional criminals around. The HEAT-esque criminals.

Many criminals are specifically quite ostentatious. They exist, as you put it, outside of traditional society in a world defined by predatory dominance by violence. Nearly all apex predators are highly conspicuous in some fashion. The cyberpunk is often identified by their mohawk and the 1930s gangster had their pinstriped zoot suits and the contemporary housing projects gangland dope-king has his bling and pimped out escalade. All of these things serve to further distinguish the criminal from the 'normal' world and also serve a purpose like the lion's mane, the wolf's howl or the eagle's screach. It lets everybody know who is the man up in this piece. It throws the power and confidence of being a predator into the face of the public while also calling out any would be challengers saying "Hey, I am here. Come and get me if you can. I don't think you have the stones."

It is not in the best interest of a professional criminal to avoid offending The Man but it is in the best interest of the professional criminal to firmly, and at times loudly, declare their position in their criminal hierarchy. These two things exist in a weird ouroboros kind of way; a state of complete paradox.

Spotting the Yakuza in Japan is legendarily easy - they literally drive around in antique / ultra expensive sports cars, wear the most gaudy suits, wear absurd jewelry and are covered in tattoos. They also work with The Establishment in a great many ways, integrating themselves into a very real market niche that the legitimate world recognizes as both valid and unavailable to Legitimate business and the rule of Law - ie vice. People want to gamble. They want whores. They also want drugs. The Establishment understands that it can't relieve or abate those desires and instead lets the Yaks handle those aspects of life.

From what I understand it is not unheard of for parents of problem children who are repeat offenders to give their kid to the cops who then drop the kid off with the yaks. Essentially the kid has left the legitimate world forever, having repeatedly turned their back on the rules of civic and public life, and now resides firmly in the 'underworld' where the Yaks run things and you play by their rules.

[Critias]

From what I understand it is not unheard of for parents of problem children who are repeat offenders to give their kid to the cops who then drop the kid off with the yaks. Essentially the kid has left the legitimate world forever, having repeatedly turned their back on the rules of civic and public life, and now resides firmly in the 'underworld' where the Yaks run things and you play by their rules.

Character concept, here I come!

[kzt]

Most of this is obviously going to depend on the table. I don't let my runners get away with this crap. My reading of the rules and the fluff supports my view. But fluff and rules can be changed to make the game whatever you want (and hence why I'm changing my rules to SR D&D4).

Don't do it! You'll get cancer!

But yeah. I can't remember a game where we ever ran into to cops, other then us seeing them scream by as we sedately drove away....

[Cheops]

Don't do it! You'll get cancer!

But yeah. I can't remember a game where we ever ran into to cops, other then us seeing them scream by as we sedately drove away....

Yeah my groups tend to try and not raise a ruckuss in the first place.

And too late! I already have cancer. My Earthdawn game just started the crossover phase with them landing in Sigil and us switching to D&D. They will soon be making their stop in the 6th world to see how badly they f*ed up in the 4th world before going back to fix it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Temple of Time for the win baby!

[Critias]

Yeah my groups tend to try and not raise a ruckuss in the first place.

And too late! I already have cancer. My Earthdawn game just started the crossover phase with them landing in Sigil and us switching to D&D. They will soon be making their stop in the 6th world to see how badly they f*ed up in the 4th world before going back to fix it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Temple of Time for the win baby!

Ugh. Ditching the Earthdawn system for plain old D&D rules? I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[Larme]

Who says I'm not thinking strategically? Sure you can take out their vehicles but again you've just forced cop cars to crash and potentially killed cops. Not a very wise decision. (Because even if you took out all the drones there is still 7 vehicles including a chopper to your 1-4)

A good rigger can wipe out 3-4 opponents every turn. And you're not potentially killing anyone -- as stated in Arsenal, normal safety equipment on vehicles, i.e. seat belts and air bags, protects the passengers from any harm in a crash. People usually don't die in a crash. The ramming rules confuse the issue because they state that people resist ramming damage with 1/2 impact (and a crash is considered a self-ram), but what it's saying, in light of the Arsenal note, is that when the people themselves get rammed (i.e. run over by a car), that's how they resist. It's not saying that the people inside the vehicle take ramming damage when they get rammed or crash. The cops don't like having their cars wrekced, but if you don't shoot at them, they probably won't get killed. Not unless there's some dangerous terrain, like you're on a bridge and they go over the side or something. Of course, if they're in a copter and you shoot it down, that crash would probably be fatal or at least dangerous... But not so much for cars.

I'll also point out that police tend to start sending more and bigger stuff at you the more of them you take out. Sure you whittled them down to 4 cop cars and the chopper but now you have armed drones and SWAT vehicles on your ass. Gets even worse when you hit the Barrens because then they can actually use their heavy artillery. AV Assault Cannon round wrecks you pretty fast.

The cops don't have instant teleportation. It takes quite a number of combat turns for SWAT or FRT to show up, plenty of time to crash the opposition and get the hell out of there. What you're describing is an absolute "players can't win" scenario, as in any police chase leads to apprehension. That's now how GMing is done, IMO. Police are not an automatic "you lose" button. You can't stand up and fight them, but you can evade them, as long as you've got a good rigger on your side.

Your best bet actually is to hope that you took something from the target corporation, tell them you have it, and tell them that you are involved in a high speed chase with the Star. If they value their asset enough they'll likely tell the Star to back off. On the other hand you just let your target know who you are... but at least you ain't going to jail!

Um... really? "Hey I took your stuff and need help" is the best plan? That's an interesting suggestion. IMO there are a million better ways to get out of hot water other than begging the people you hit for backup. The corp you hit could probably recover their macguffin from the police using legal process, why should they help you? The better alternative would be to call the Johnson and see if he can't help you out. He won't be pleased, but he probably has connections that could be useful, and he's not going to want to kill you when you call him (or at least he's vastly less likely to). You could also pull out a jammer and disrupt police communications, so that they don't get backup as fast and you have time to get away. You could call your contacts too. Maybe your ganger friends would set up a nice barricade for you, or your smuggler friend could show up and distract a bunch of them and lead them away. Maybe your hacker friend could shut off all their vehicles, or put out a false "stop chasing" order.

It sounds to me like you're just saying, "nuh uh, you can't do that!" to every suggestion about beating the cops. Not that I think you're being stupid, you're just inventing reasons why resisting arrest can't work. I don't think any of those reasons are mandated by the books, especially in light of the fact that wrecking someone's car is really unlikely to kill them in Shadowrun's system. The simpliest solution is the best -- ram them or cut them off, see them crash, then escape. If a good getaway rigger is surrounded by 7 cars, it's going to be an average 2 turns to crash almost all of them, then an average 2 turns to escape (move to medium [1st turn], move to long, break off, break off, break off [2nd turn]). If the backup in your world shows up in 4 combat turns, then I think you're being a little unfair to your players, unless they're inside a AAA zone.

[Cheops]

For interest's sake how do your run regular character actions in a Chase Combat? Do you let them take 20 Combat Rounds in between each Chase Round?

[Cheops]

Ugh. Ditching the Earthdawn system for plain old D&D rules? I just threw up in my mouth a little.

It was a sanity move for me. Choice was to either play Planescape with ED rules and convert everything on my side of the table or have them convert their characters and not have to bother. Makes for some interesting role-playing as they are now in a place that has Scourge levels of magical power. Wizard and Nethermancer are freaking out.

Reason for the crossover is that I always planned to eventually send them into SR but they had the silly idea to follow the one-eyed dragon (thanks to the now dead Archer) through the portal into the Horror Netherworld. So instead of condemning them to that uncertain future I had the dragon disrupt the dweller on the threshold and send the party spiralling off into astral space -- eventually landing in the basement of an inn in Sigil.


@Larme: I don't want to say that it is impossible to get away from the cops just that it should be damn hard and blasting your way out is the worst solution I can think of. Here's another one to add to Bob's idea (this is stolen from 24 btw):

Drive into a tunnel or somewhere under cover to hide from the helicopters. Have several other vans of the same type all with morphing plates and chameleon paint parked under there. Quickly play some musical chairs then all drive out at once. Split up at first opportunity and go different ways. Now the cops have more of a problem catching you.

Here's another one that I liked to use in SR3. Take a long drive off a short pier in Puget Sound. Cops don't know that I have environmental seal and water propulsion so I can quickly submarine out of there long before they can mount a response. Neutralizes most all forms of pursuit.

Trid phantasm plus physical mask can work wonders. Make your vehicle look like a different model then conjure a phantasm of your vehicle racing along before losing control and slamming into a concrete barricade. Should give you a few minutes to get away before they realize the ruse (only recommended for Initiates with Masking).

[nezumi]

The exception to this is your comment of violent criminal. If they've just been publicly caught in the act of conducting a fire fight or blowing up a building or some such thing then there are no kid gloves to begin with.

I think that's an important clarification. When my party is getting chased by cops, it's with rocket launchers and monofilament chainsaws, and generally a nice body count (of, at minimum, security guards). Hence, not much of a line.

The single greatest addition to a car during a chase is a good spirit. Concealment power + speed power make just about any vehicle near unbeatable.

[Cheops]

The single greatest addition to a car during a chase is a good spirit. Concealment power + speed power make just about any vehicle near unbeatable.

Confusion and Fear are pretty damn funny too.

[Larme]

For interest's sake how do your run regular character actions in a Chase Combat? Do you let them take 20 Combat Rounds in between each Chase Round?

Um... what? 20? Everyone gets their normal actions. That means passengers who don't suck at combat are shooting down drones 3x per turn. Riggers who don't suck are running VR with a simsense accelerator, with 4 passes. That means 3 cut offs or rams every turn, 4 if they spend an Edge. If you're being chased by 7 cars, two turns later, you should have 1 remaining car chasing you, or you deserve to be pilloried as a crappy rigger, barring really unlucky dice.