Snipers, Do you use them? Options

[Tashiro]

My sister's a big fan of the sniper creed, and has been asking me to allow her to make a sniper for the current game. Now, admittedly, there's everything in the world in SR to make a damn good sniper, but this reminded me of the old question: Do you allow snipers in your games, and if you do, do you let them actually do their job 'correctly'.

In other words: Do you allow a sniper PC to set up a shot, have a spotter, wait, and pull off the kill as part of a run, or as the run itself?
Second: Do you use sniper NPCs?

I had a PC troll, damn near unstoppable, tick off a high ranked mafia type. In return, the mafia type hired a hitman, and the hitman, knowing the troll's reputation, sat a good ten blocks away, and pot-shotted the troll in the head. The troll went from 'pristine' to 'Serious Wound' in one shot. He got cover before the sniper could get a second shot off, and escaped with his life, but it was a close one...

After that incident, I tossed an e-mail to the editors for 3E SR, and asked about whether or not someone would get a dodge pool against a sniper shot. The answer was 'no, he's screwed'. My sister was quite satisfied with that answer, having a serious hate-on for 'soft' mechanics against such things.

What's your take on snipers?

[Eleint]

I'd certainly allow one for a PC. As an NPC killing PCs, no, I wouldn't. There's usually multiple ways to do things -- there's pretty much always another way to accomplish something. Getting a head-shot from a distance with no way you can do anything about it isn't fun. It's simply the GM fiating that you're dead. Tossing a few dice doesn't absolve the GM of responsibility.

[Critias]

Re: goose, gander.

If a PC can park on a rooftop and take potshots at folks who don't get to attempt a dodge, why can't an NPC do the same thing if it's a warranted response from whoever the PCs have recently pissed off?

[TheOOB]

I certainly allow snipers, the rules support them just fine. I just make sure to remind the player that they are a shadowrunner, and not an assassin, which means that unless the team is large enough to have someone hang back like that, they are expected to at least sometimes get down in the thick of things.

As for sniper NPCs, I rarely use them. I sometimes use them as guards for super secure facilities(which means the team needs to be extra sneaky), but otherwise there are only used when the runners piss someone off. The Star and most corps don't bother going after runners who hit them usually, it is very risky and doesn't gain them any profit, but occasionally if the runners are really violent they can expect an assassination squad.

[Eleint]

If a PC can park on a rooftop and take potshots at folks who don't get to attempt a dodge, why can't an NPC do the same thing if it's a warranted response from whoever the PCs have recently pissed off?

Because it's a game, perhaps? Players put a lot more effort into their characters than the average NPC has had. It's really easy as a GM to arrange a PK. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. Basically there's always multiple responses an NPC can do. There is never just one response. You go with the one that makes it most fun for everyone. A GM fiat kill doesn't do that for anyone but the GM.

[Mordinvan]

Re: goose, gander.

If a PC can park on a rooftop and take potshots at folks who don't get to attempt a dodge, why can't an NPC do the same thing if it's a warranted response from whoever the PCs have recently pissed off?

If you think erasing a player's character without allowing a chance for survival is 'fun' you play at a very different table then I do. The fact remains if anyone ever gets pissed at the PC's then snipers, car bombs, missiles through bedroom windows, and hacking the targeting system of a thor shot are all much better ways of killing them then in face to face combat. They get the job done, only need 1 shot, and for the most part are reasonably inexpensive compared to the replacement cost of any assassins you might lose in a face to face battle. They also are no fun.

[EnlitenedDespot]

The biggest problem with Snipers is honestly that as a PC it can get very boring or make the sniper feel left out.

Yes, there are uses and times for snipers and those moments are awesome. But if you need to infiltrate a building, you'll have the team go in and the sniper hang out outside. In fact, if the run goes well enough, did you need the sniper(s)?

The problem we've ever had with snipers is that they can kind of get left out of the group. Now, if you run one of those games with 6-8 players in it, a sniper is probably not a bad choice at all since you will probably have overlapping character roles anyway. However, with a 2-4 man group, I would be harder pressed to want someone specifically geared to be a sniper.

Honestly, if the GM is keen on it and really feel he can incorporate that character into the game well, go for it.

As for snipers killing PCs, I do agree it does feel like the GM just fiating the death of whatever PCs get killed. That being said, don't feel so paralyzed that you can't exercise the option if you feel it appropriate or necessary. In fact, a sniper PC may get the most use by countersniping.

It just feels like if the PC group opens that can of worms, well so can the GM. This could result in a lot of PCs and NPCs dying and a lot of hostility between GM and player.

The GM I usually play with just tries to create a reality and let consequences merit themselves out, yet at the same time he's not going to viciously snipe us at every opportunity if we're playing competently and well.

[Dumori]

I thing to do would br to cahge the game for running to wetwork. In a wetwork based game one could have a sniper and the rest of them team would have rolls as well. Same in a merc based game In mine I have two snipers as and mos of my PCs can strike at the 1.5km mark.

[toturi]

I use snipers and I allow them in my game. The following is from my point of view as a GM and from the issue of game mechanics, not realism.

In an SR4 game, I had a sniper NPC that had to kill another NPC my PCs were hired to protect. Going by RAW, what the sniper has going for him is principly that he can prepare himself to take that shot, roll high on his Disguise, get mods that reduce the ability for others to spot him. Together with other Perception mods, he should usually be able to make that shot before anyone even thinks to find him. But bodyguards and such are hired precisely to do so - find him, even then with all the negative modifiers applying to the guards' Perception, most of the time they do not.

Enter the spotter. His job is to find the sniper before the sniper even makes that shot. And in the game of who has the most dice (in SR4 at least), the spotter has a chance. Mr Perceptive can find that sniper and take him out before the sniper even shoots. Worse yet, there are ways around Mr Sniper's mundane defenses. Assensing can cut through most of Mr Sniper's bullshit.

The very worst sniper in my game is the Mage sniper. The spotter can see him and he has already spotted him, but he doesn't know that the Mage sniper is going to cast that spell. An Assensor might be able to do read his emotions, but it is limited to a very specific build - an Astral Perception adept that is focused on Assensing.

Shadowrun can be extremely lethal, although I would use snipers, I would use them sparingly.

[DWC]

I'm playing a character that started out as one, but due to the small size of the group, tends to spend most of his time in the thick of things with the other PCs rather than watch the world go by at 900m. Thinking about it, I don't think he's actually pulled his Desert Strike off the shelf since the second session that I played him in, which, coincidentally, was also the first time he pulled the rifle out. A lot of people died to rifle rounds that they never saw coming. It probably won't again for anything other than episodes of personal spite.

I happen to agree with the "good for the goose, good for the gander" school of thought, and we've definitely had a instance or two of a well concealed ganger with a sport rifle nearly putting someone down. The group is just graduating to the level where someone serious might actually come after us and I fully expect that at some point, someone is going to catch an MA-2100 or SM-4 round to the head because they zigged when they should have zagged. I'm also of the opinion that a PC has to die every once in a while to keep the specter of imminent death hanging over everyone. When someone died in the last gunfight, people are a little more hesitant to start the next one.

[Blade]

I'd allow a player to play a sniper but would warn him that he won't always be able to use his sniping abilities. He might even have limited opportunities to do so (but it's up to the group to find ways to benefit from a sniper). So since it's the same skill for shotgun, I'd advise him to take one.
Oh, and I'd also insist on the fact that Shadowrun is a team game, and that I play a lot of social/everyday things so he might get bored if he decides to play the mute loner sniper archetype.

As for NPC, verisimilitude is king in my game. If it makes sense to have a sniper, there'll be one. If it makes sense that the opposition will have a sniper kill a PC, the sniper will try to kill a PC. I just won't have a random sniper starting to randomly shoot the PCs.
But I warn my players about that, as well: don't expect your character not to die just because it's 'just bad luck', 'not a good death' or 'GM fiat': Edge is there to counter bad luck, we're not playing an heroic/epic game and nobody will kill you if you don't give them a good reason to.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

I don't have a problem with snipers and the 'no dodge' rule works fine for me.

The problem is getting the time to settup a proper sniper hide and once there what happens if something unexpected transpires?

Secondary combat skills would be a good idea for sniper characters, don't get too specialized unless you are going with the Mission Impossible approach where you bring in specialists from a PC pool.

NPC snipers? That is a tool to be used with great care. IMO...Shadowrun...is about the disposable PC and that the law of averages is very unforgiving.

[Critias]

Because it's a game, perhaps? Players put a lot more effort into their characters than the average NPC has had. It's really easy as a GM to arrange a PK. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. Basically there's always multiple responses an NPC can do. There is never just one response. You go with the one that makes it most fun for everyone. A GM fiat kill doesn't do that for anyone but the GM.

Who said anything about a "GM fiat kill?" I'm not talking about one of this place's retarded orbital cows or something. I'm talking about a reasonably competent professional killer with a rifle. PC's can make Perception tests (often with some absolutely ridiculous enhancements). PC's can learn a little fieldcraft -- as professional criminals -- and try to avoid dilly-dallying around in situations where someone can predict their location, get a good hide, line up a shot, and wait for them (they can stick to crowds, rotate from safehouse to safehouse, have Spirits on overwatch, whatever). PC's can wear armor. PC's can spend Edge to boost soak rolls, or even outright to avoid death. PC's can not piss people off that bad in the first place (remember, I said "if it's a warranted response").

If one PC gets a shot from a sniper, the mage can toss up a Barrier, get busy healing him, and the rest of the team can -- very dramatically -- respond to the attack in their own way, going after the shooter, starting a high speed chase, sniper-duelling him, spooking him from his nest and getting them to work making knowledge skill checks and pumping their contacts for information to see what's going on.

And on and on and on.

If you think erasing a player's character without allowing a chance for survival is 'fun' you play at a very different table then I do. The fact remains if anyone ever gets pissed at the PC's then snipers, car bombs, missiles through bedroom windows, and hacking the targeting system of a thor shot are all much better ways of killing them then in face to face combat. They get the job done, only need 1 shot, and for the most part are reasonably inexpensive compared to the replacement cost of any assassins you might lose in a face to face battle. They also are no fun.

If you think one guy with a rifle is "erasing a player's character without allowing a chance for survival," do me a favor, stop being melodramatic, and read the above.

One dude with a rifle shouldn't be a total party kill in a game that revolves around competent Shadowrunners, people. What it should do is spook the hell out of the player characters, moderately-to-seriously injure one, and add a whole hell of a lot of tension. It should act as a wake-up call that they've done something particularly brutal, stupid, or both, it should tell them they're getting sloppy, it should let them know they've pissed off someone powerful who's taking it more personally than most marks.

I swear, some people are so fucking scared of applying a little pressure to their PCs, I wonder just how fun and exciting their games can be in the first place.

[EnlitenedDespot]

I think there is a good balance between applying pressure and appearing as if you're enacting GM revenge.

I also think that you shouldn't feel afraid to use a sniper yourself.

If the situation warrants it, a sniper or multipler snipers should be there. If not, then no snipers should be present.

There is the "escape death" capability that PCs can have access to (although if I recall it requires burning a permanent point of Edge and if you only have Edge 1 you can't, no?). Anyhow, if the PCs piss off the wrong people and those wrong people decide to go for a sniper to solve their being pissed off, then I think that's fine.

Besides, in an urban environment where the PCs make conscious choices to not expose themselves to sniper-friendly areas, I think that sniper would be hard-pressed to find an awesome spot in which he could reliably expect the PCs to show up...

[nezumi]

I do allow snipers if they're appropriate for the situation. However, NPCs need to lure the PCs to the spot in the first place (i.e. - the ambush). A PC who allows himself to be led into an ambush, or who allows his safe house to be compromised, is already basically dead. The question is just how.

(I will say, I also have a VERY professional group of runners. They are far too smart for me. So I don't mind not pulling punches any more. They've had two encounters with snipers, once against snipers who were gunning for their Johnson, while the runners were aware of trouble and were running, so the sniper didn't have much of an opportunity, and once against barely trained gangers given rocket launchers from another source - again while the runners were expecting the ambush and reacted appropriately.)

[PirateChef]

I tend to play Hackers / TMs, and have a habit of making them snipers as a backup to their hacking abilities, so when we get a run that requires legwork but no actual hacking I can still be useful without everyone having to worry about me dying. Especially in 4th, where I can set up a camera on my rooftop and use AR to run overwatch while keeping an eye on my killing field to disrupt possible reinforcements / provide cover fire for an escaping team.

As a GM I will use snipers if my group does something to warrant one. But they know this and are careful to not establish behaviors that would enable a sniper to get a good clean shot. And if the rolls go horribly wrong and a sniper does get off a shot that should be a one hit kill, I'll usually drop the damage to 1 box under full, to give the player a chance. Of course the sniper will still keep shooting if they don't react appropriately.

And if you decide to go hang out in a public park 2 days after a bungled run on Ares... you deserve the one shot finish.

[Chibu]

Oh definitely. And PC's getting sniped? Happens. Ftr, I've not sniped a PG while GMing, because i usually run one-shots between campaigns. Shadowrun is a dangerous game when people die. Your charcter has 10 'hit points'. This isn't D&D. If you get shot, you die from it. Happens.

But anyway, arguments aside, Yes, we allow sniping by anyone who wants to snipe in our games, PCs and NPCs alike. It kills my suspension of disbelief to think that if I piss off some powerful party they will send an assassin with a knife to come take me out. Seriously? Snipe me already, it just makes more sense.

[resident-securit...]

I am currently using my sniper pc while my specialist pc has a few years downtime ( taking on aztec and being marked by an ant hive for death...yeah i practically had to built my own stealth space station >.<) i put alot of thought into grey. I didnt want him to be the "guy who sits back and just shoots 1 trick poney" i gave him other skills and edges that would benefit the rest of the group in the instance that

#1 my position is compromised - demolitions (set booby traps to stop/slow down enemies so i can escape or finish the job i was doing)

#2 un-expected armor - competence with ranged missile weapons ( take out tanks/bugs or make an opening for the team to escape)

#3 perceptive - helps with spotting etc.

#4 and an AK if i find myself in some close trouble

plus small unit tactics and a few other survival skills helps, if i have to guide my team out of a bad situation.

[HappyDaze]

Because it's a game, perhaps? Players put a lot more effort into their characters than the average NPC has had. It's really easy as a GM to arrange a PK. That doesn't mean it's a good thing. Basically there's always multiple responses an NPC can do. There is never just one response. You go with the one that makes it most fun for everyone. A GM fiat kill doesn't do that for anyone but the GM.

Often are the times a player takes an action that is not 'fun' for anyone but himself. This is despite the fact that there are always multiple responses a PC can do. However, since many players I've seen are routinely selfish, I feel that the GM is allowed the same luxury from time to time.

[Eleint]

Often are the times a player takes an action that is not 'fun' for anyone but himself. This is despite the fact that there are always multiple responses a PC can do. However, since many players I've seen are routinely selfish, I feel that the GM is allowed the same luxury from time to time.

See, I'd say this something to be discussed out of game. Punishing a player for poor behavior by sniping him? What sort of behavior is that? Discuss issues that are a problem out of game rather than attempting to punish the player in game. One would assume everyone in the game are adults, or at least teenagers capable of acting like adults (I started playing SR in my teenage years, so had to toss that in.)

[Screaming Eagle]

Snipers should be rather rare to non-existant unless the team F***s up hard.

Who deploys snipers? (not going to be exaustive or accurate list, sorry)
SWAT teams in hostage situations or similar - the bad guys (the runners) are pinned down for some time while the authorities are informed and these guys get deployed to support an assault and minimize casualties. How bad did the team F-up to get in this situation? Probably epic fail level F-up. Runners die, I like mine to live cause it tells a better story, but if I can't believe ANYONE could get out they are probably not going to.
The Army - Why is the army attacking your runners? Seriously. Either you are deployed in some sort of war zone as part of the mission and should be expecting this kind of crap (servaliance and stealth drones out to 2 km with kitted sensors, spirits using the Guard, Search and Stealth powers etc.) or you are attacking the WRONG place (and should be expecting this kind of crap).
Hitpersons - Organised criminal syndicates will hire killers, so will: disgruntled co-workers, that crazy lady you cut off in traffic the other day, other runner teams you have run into who have grown tired of your continued living, etc. This is the only one the players would get little warning of and will usually be the least skilled out of the 3 options presented - most hired killers of this stripe will be some degree of "crazy with a gun". Don't get me wrong, I can totally see such a person occasionally tossing 14-16 dice, but they are a fair bit less likely to have full kit (cyber eyes, spotter drones, smartlink with multipule redundancy, uber scope, agility 9+ etc. etc..) Thing is, even if I as the GM feel this is warrented most runners have a network of contacts connected to the underworld and many of these people have at least a token interest in keeping the runners alive and I can drop them the info. Now rather then a "BANG, your dead" and a dull thud, I have an extended paranoia filled tension fest as they (the mark and, if they care, the rest of the team) avoid open spaces, keep low, keep ranged servalince running 24/7 - oh and your Fixer called, he's got work for you - good work, better get going. At this point even in the unlikely event I am doing it just to kill the Runner I've given fair warning and they can be careful, smart and probably live.

Players as snipers? Sure, rock on. As others have mentioned though it is of limited use on most missions, but it will occasionally transform a hard to near impossible mission into a cakewalk. 20+ dice get rolled, edge spent - re-rolls failures - 12 hits and 20+DV latter - "Bang. He's dead" and a dull thud. And keeping in mind the Goose and the Gander - the target of such a run my easily get some warning that the infamous sniper has been hired if you are not careful. You are infamous right? Cause if you being hired doesn't fill the target with wetting their pants dread why am I hiring you to kill people when I can give a couple of dozen chipheads and hobos decent guns and offer 5000nY and some drugs to the one that gets them?

[HappyDaze]

See, I'd say this something to be discussed out of game. Punishing a player for poor behavior by sniping him? What sort of behavior is that? Discuss issues that are a problem out of game rather than attempting to punish the player in game. One would assume everyone in the game are adults, or at least teenagers capable of acting like adults (I started playing SR in my teenage years, so had to toss that in.)

Perhaps, but "That's what [NPC X] would do." is just as valid as "That's what my character would do." A GM is not punishing them for poor behavior so much as just withdrawing any unnatural protection some people seem to assume PCs are due. This is not to say I encourage wilful malice on the part of the GM towards the players, just a greater emphasis to play things straight-up. A 'no carrot' approach is not the same as the 'stick' approach.

[Larme]

In terms of snipers as PCs, they're fine, IF and only if they're willing to do something other than snipe. As an example, here's something that happened in a MUX game I GM'd once:

Me: "Ok, the team is invited to the meet with some vory, where they will discuss a job."

Sniper (privately): "So, what's my role here?"

Me (privately): "We're playing out the meet, you'll find out soon!"

The meet goes on with the other characters, they meet the boss, find out the job, accept it. Sniper never says anything or even indicates that his character is there.

Sniper (privately): "So what's my role? Am I hired to go keep watch on the team and kill them if they betray the Johnson or something?"

Me (privately): "What? No! When did I indicate I was willing to run your own mini-plot for you?"

Sniper (privately): "Oh, I thought you knew [without any hint] that my character only works alone and only as a sniper. You should have planned the run with some way to include me."


THAT is the kind of thing I have a problem with. Snipers who are "lone wolves," who refuse to work with others and sometimes even to talk with others. Snipers who think that their only job is to snipe, and that everything can be accomplished by sniping. Making a master sniper PC who is an expert at stealth and perception and rifles? Great! As long as he maybe owns a shotgun or something for when a job doesn't involve sniper tactics. PCs who think they can dictate all the details of the run just because they made a certain archetype are just bogus. Not every job is going to allow for sniping, in fact, most won't. Case in point, infiltrating a facility. A sniper could take out the guards on the outside, but then their job would be over. That shouldn't be enough to earn a full share of the pay. The worst though are fanboys who don't know anything about real snipers, who assume that NPCs will stand around stupidly and get killed while you snipe like they do in most FPS's, instead of all taking cover and thereby becoming immune to further snipeage.

So, in brief, snipers are cool as long as they're flexible. As long as they're willing to work with the team, and are willing to do something other than snipe in situations where sniping is useless.

[Screaming Eagle]

Snip
Sniper (privately): "Oh, I thought you knew [without any hint] that my character only works alone and only as a sniper. You should have planned the run with some way to include me."
Snip

I had something very similar to this happen once. I laughed in his face, went back into the gaming room laughed some more. Explained to everyone else why I was laughing, everyone else laughed. After some molification of the Player in question I handed him a tweeked Weapon speciallist architype to play for the run and ran the game. It went well. There were nachos.

[nezumi]

Eagle, I agree pretty strongly with your post about the three occaisions for snipers, with the addendum, remember that snipers are generally tied to a particular place they can predict the PCs to be (assumig it's not just a general killing field). PCs don't get sniped in Central Park unless they go to Central Park with some degree of regularity, or have a meet there or something. If they've never been there before, there's little reason to expect a sniper is waiting there to put a bullet through their eyes.