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> Best Heavy Pistol Set-up, Let all your minds collaborate for awesomeness
EnlitenedDespot
post Jun 25 2009, 08:03 AM
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I am a big, big fan of heavy pistols. I just find the notion of dealing with all of the problems with the other types of guns a royal pain in the ass and am not a fan of having invested time/experience into a weapon I can only have around some of the time. As a heavy pistol is still fairly concealable (especially with the right supplemental equipment) and you can generally carry it most places, I'm really interested in making an excellent choice.

My heart is still with the Ares Predator IV, but this thread is really about having the most tricked-out, best all-around pistol. If I'm not mistaken, the Thunderbolt(?) is a really badass pistol with the burst fire but a concern of mine with it is that it only fires burst fire (and the 12 bullet mag).

Anyhow, the point being, whatever is going to hurt that troll with his ridiculous soak pool the most (or at least has the best chance) coupled in mind with the idea that versatility is important as well. So magazine capacity, having multiple options for ammo, concealability, damage code, autofire or not capabilities are all considerations.

What do you think is the best overall heavy pistol set-up with the best combo of overall damage output, concentrated damage output (single target specifically), and versatility? All books may be referenced, though I'm not a fan of optional rules.
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Dumori
post Jun 25 2009, 08:32 AM
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Humm....

Well there is that 7DV pistol its only one shot however you can mod it to a 2 shot SA gun and depending on you GM 4 shot. With four shots it matches the Thunderbolt and has less recoil the most you'll get is a -1.
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Mäx
post Jun 25 2009, 08:34 AM
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I would propably go with a Ares Viper Slivergun modified to full auto with as much recoil compensation as you can fit and possibly a extended magazine.
That give you 3 DV17 burst(puls one DV15 with extended mag) and should have decend change to cause few points of stun damage to that troll tank.
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Dumori
post Jun 25 2009, 08:36 AM
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Howver a troll always has amors and the +5 dv with the torll natral armo would disadvateag you the troll would only need to have a total armour of 8 and your pistol will do only stun.

However on a troll stun damage could be a better thing as they will likely have a lower stun track.
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Mäx
post Jun 25 2009, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Dumori @ Jun 25 2009, 11:36 AM) *
Howver a troll always has amors and the +5 dv with the torll natral armo would disadvateag you the troll would only need to have a total armour of 8 and your pistol will do only stun.

He was talking about having a chance to hur a troll tank and that can easily have 30+ dice soak pool and 16+ points of armor, so there's no way to do a physical damage with a heavy pistol and stun damage is better anyway as that troll will have a much shorter stun track.
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Dumori
post Jun 25 2009, 08:53 AM
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True. even then is the extra 1.6 hits again the damage the troll will get worth it?

I'll get the troll 30 soke and 16 armour. Thats 10 hits with no AP base so the 7DV form most pistols would be worthless. The sivergun would do 7DV(form the net hit need to hit) on average with pools this big is the troll had 3 willpower two FA shots at the troll should reach the end end of his stun track. Taking two combat turns to do.

Not bad at all now loading the Thunderbolt with SnS will get you a 9S(e)+1 (form the net hit need to hit) burst droping his armor to 8 and his soke poll to 22 the -1 ap on the heavy pistol would drop the poll down to 21 giving 7 hits on average. This will give you 3s per simple action but with only a 12 round clip it will still take you 2 combat turns to take down the troll.
So now it comes down to cost I dont have the books on me atm but it will take 20 (f) ammo or 12SnS ammo to take down thsi hyperphetical troll. With only one net hit more hit with quicken the troll demiose with the Thunderbolt and an extra net hit on any or all tests will take down the troll in only 9 rounds of ammo. Where as with the Silvergun you will need to have 3 more net hits to take down the troll in 10 rounds and 1 combat turn. However with a similar dicepoll it would take only 6 rounds of SnS ammo and the same lenght of time.

Also using the thunderbolt will only give you -2 on the first shot and -5 on the seconed before RC, where as the Silvergun will give --9 to both shots before RC.

I think the thunderbolt wins out but I dont have my books to cheak pirceing to make sure.
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Bob Lord of Evil
post Jun 25 2009, 09:58 AM
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HK Urban Fighter, can't be detected by MAD, hermetically sealed ammo, ceramic silencer, compact, 10 round clip, internal smartlink...the assassins pistol. Downside you can't mod it but considering how it is out of the box why would you need to?
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Shrike30
post Jun 25 2009, 10:36 AM
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Colt Government with an accessory smartlink, and a mod silencer, extended mag and additional clip. 28+1 rounds on tap, 14 of those can be a different type if you want, and a -7 to be heard (-8 with subsonics) with no recoil. My usual preference would be explosive or flechette ammo in one mag, APDS in the other. 2400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and one slot left for modifications.

Ruger Thunderbolt with built-in smartlink. Mod on an extended magazine, sound suppressor, semiautomatic fire mode and a personalized grip, you're rolling around with 15+1 capacity, 3 points of recoil comp in a SA/BF handgun, and a -6 to be heard when firing it. 2650 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Walther Secura Kompakt with an accessory smartlink, mod on an extended mag, gecko grip, personalized grip, reduced weight, and a silencer. 11+1 capacity, no recoil, more concealable than the average heavy pistol, and it's small size, light weight and the gecko grip means you can stick it nearly anywhere (say, your armpit under a t-shirt or to the backside of a painting) without it being as obvious as most weapons with similar firepower. Hey, the gun you're carrying when you meet the troll is a lot better than the bigger one in your drawer at home. 2300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Ruger Super Warhawk with an accessory smartlink, modded on ammo skip system, semiautomatic fire, increased cylinder, and an underbarrel Yamaha Pulsar. 8 rounds of heavy-caliber ammunition, rapid fire, your choice of which cylinder is under the hammer, and two 8(e)/-half taser barbs to take the wind out of his sails, for 1700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

I have more fun with machine pistols, personally... the TMP and the 5-7C are both good platforms for building guns that can throw down a ridiculous amount of fire and still have a serious chunk of recoil compensation built in. A little bulkier than heavy pistols, true... but if you need 'em small, the Fichetti Executive Action can be stepped up to full auto and still have 5 mod slots left. You can also go with something like the Ares Redline (30 rounds off the hip pack you strapped the holster to, 5P/-half damage, and SMG ranges) or the FN-AAL gyrojet pistol (higher damage code to start with, and the potential to fire guided rounds so you don't even need line of sight), but those require special skills.
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Cardul
post Jun 25 2009, 11:28 AM
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Ruger Warhawk: Enlarged Cylinder, Firing mode modification: SA, personalized grip, external Smartlink

Otherwise(as much as I hate it because everyone uses it)
Ares Predator: Personalized Grip, dual clip(one loaded with gel or SnS, the other loaded with lethal of choice), skinlink, no trigger, and, if you can fit it in, electronic firing.
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Shrike30
post Jun 26 2009, 04:11 AM
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I go with the Colt Government on a model like that to chop the weapon cost down some... Electronic Firing runs a grand to install, and is 2 weapon slots, whereas an internal smartgun link installed as an accessory doesn't burn any mod slots and is noticeably cheaper to do. You do lose a round in the magazine, but if that's really a big deal one of those mod slots can buy an extended mag.
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Falconer
post Jun 26 2009, 05:08 AM
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Hmm... nicely tricked out.... lets think. If you like the idea of a SMG in a heavy pistol form factor (smaller, and it gets AP-1 more to boot).

Ruger Thunderbolt (BF-narrow, smartgun, 2RC built-in)
Accessories:
Gas3 barrel accessory +3RC
Top Accessory: unused
Folding Stock +1RC

Mods:
1 skinlink
1 Personalized Grip +1RC
1 Firing Modification (make it a full SA/BF, or go for the gold... BF/FA)
2 Additional Clip
1 Extended Clip

All said... Y3350 5P AP-1 base damage... w/ full auto, and 7 points of recoil comp. Enough to actually pull off a full narrow burst w/ a heavy pistol. Not limited to flechette like a slivergun.

Load it up w/ APDS. Full Narrow Burst... 15DV, AP-5, RC7 (+3 more from say a cyberlimb gyro), on a 30 rd (2x15rd) magazine. Physical damage against armor 10 or less.


Also, getting rid of the extra ammo... putting in an internal suppressor. (you can leave the gas vent... smartgun can select whether you want quiet or max recoil comp). You still have a pistol w/ RC4 (enough for no penalty on first burst, and only a -1 on second burst) w/ a fully suppressed heavy pistol.


Also, I'm more fond of skinlink, over trigger removal. The gun can be programmed to be 'safe' if it loses connection to your PAN. W/ skinlink that means if it leaves your hand. Also, stops stupid decker tricks like hacking your gun, or someone w/ an area jammer killing it's signal and rendering the smartgun inoperable. Another one is the Advanced Safety System accessory for stopping people from using your gun against you.
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TheOOB
post Jun 26 2009, 05:14 AM
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Aside from concealability, dual-wielding is the only advantage I see pistols having as opposed to long arms and automatics. I find the best pistols are designed to either a)super concealable and silent, or b)use special ammo that doesn't care what kind of gun you shoot it from(like stick-n-shock or narcojet rounds).

I personally like a Fichetti Security with an internal silencer, electronic firing, level 3 ceramic components, and a smart-link. Loaded with narcojet rounds you got a super silent hard to detect weapon with enough power to stop virtually anyone in two shots, and enough ammo capacity so you don't need to carry hard to conceal spare clips.
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Stingray
post Jun 26 2009, 07:22 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 26 2009, 08:08 AM) *
Hmm... nicely tricked out.... lets think. If you like the idea of a SMG in a heavy pistol form factor (smaller, and it gets AP-1 more to boot).

Ruger Thunderbolt (BF-narrow, smartgun, 2RC built-in)
Accessories:
Gas3 barrel accessory +3RC
Top Accessory: unused
Folding Stock +1RC

Mods:
1 skinlink
1 Personalized Grip +1RC
1 Firing Modification (make it a full SA/BF, or go for the gold... BF/FA)
2 Additional Clip
1 Extended Clip

All said... Y3350 5P AP-1 base damage... w/ full auto, and 7 points of recoil comp. Enough to actually pull off a full narrow burst w/ a heavy pistol. Not limited to flechette like a slivergun.

Load it up w/ APDS. Full Narrow Burst... 15DV, AP-5, RC7 (+3 more from say a cyberlimb gyro), on a 30 rd (2x15rd) magazine. Physical damage against armor 10 or less.


Also, getting rid of the extra ammo... putting in an internal suppressor. (you can leave the gas vent... smartgun can select whether you want quiet or max recoil comp). You still have a pistol w/ RC4 (enough for no penalty on first burst, and only a -1 on second burst) w/ a fully suppressed heavy pistol.


Also, I'm more fond of skinlink, over trigger removal. The gun can be programmed to be 'safe' if it loses connection to your PAN. W/ skinlink that means if it leaves your hand. Also, stops stupid decker tricks like hacking your gun, or someone w/ an area jammer killing it's signal and rendering the smartgun inoperable. Another one is the Advanced Safety System accessory for stopping people from using your gun against you.

I found one flaw with your gun.by RAW "Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols,SMGs,assault rifles and machine guns"
(Arsenal p. 152) and Heavy Pistol is NOT mentioned..
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McAllister
post Jun 26 2009, 08:25 AM
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Hold on. A pistol that fires full-auto is called a machine pistol and uses Automatics, unless it's a lightly modded Thunderbolt, in which case it's a heavy pistol, and uses Pistols? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

My head hurts.
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Stingray
post Jun 26 2009, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 26 2009, 11:25 AM) *
Hold on. A pistol that fires full-auto is called a machine pistol and uses Automatics, unless it's a lightly modded Thunderbolt, in which case it's a heavy pistol, and uses Pistols? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

My head hurts.

..just look at basic weapon's description and what skill it use, not modifications..
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Mirilion
post Jun 26 2009, 08:38 AM
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I wanted to make a human gunslinger myself. It turns out having a customized cyberarm with agi 6, and agi enhancement +3 helps, unless i'm mistaken. Also put in a cyberholster, and a monofilament whip for those "o shi-" moments.I could also go overboard and buy another cyberarm (minus the whip, probably), and get ambidexterity, for use with a gun in each hand, but that doesn't fit my image of the character.

Cybereyes or goggles with smartlink and vision magnification (among other visual enhancements). Snorting some combat drug that enhances agility helps and makes for an interesting character. Probably some sort of ex corp security or ex lone star cop, addicted to drugs and living as a gun for hire.

Not so much into bioware, so no idea if there's anything helpful there.

About the pistol itself. I just use an Ares Predator because of the coolness factor... didn't really put much thought into it.
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Falconer
post Jun 26 2009, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Jun 26 2009, 02:22 AM) *
I found one flaw with your gun.by RAW "Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols,SMGs,assault rifles and machine guns"
(Arsenal p. 152) and Heavy Pistol is NOT mentioned..


Good catch... but on the wrong grounds. That isn't the weapon MODIFICATION gas-vent. It's the firearm barrel ACCESSORY gas-vent. Anyhow, point is moot as the accessory also has that limitation. (learn something new as there's a slew of pistols in BBB & arsenal w/ built in gas-vents)

Not a bad rule for preventing this kind of twinkery though (really how many pistols need 3 points of RC when they're only expected to fire 2 shots per pass).


Still can get more RC from high strength, and cyberarm gyro though. Limiting the uncompensated recoil down to 1 or 2 dice. IIRC, you can still get 1 point RC from a weight done as a mod (not a sliding weight, that's SMG+ only, pistols don't have an underbarrel accessory point to get the weight as an accessory rather than a mod).


Another fun observation... by the book, pistols only have 2 location based accessory mounts. Top and Barrel. But many pistols have built in underbarrel gizmo accessories like flashlights or lasers off the shelf.
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Stingray
post Jun 26 2009, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 26 2009, 02:59 PM) *
Good catch... but on the wrong grounds. That isn't the weapon MODIFICATION gas-vent. It's the firearm barrel ACCESSORY gas-vent. Anyhow, point is moot as the accessory also has that limitation. (learn something new as there's a slew of pistols in BBB & arsenal w/ built in gas-vents)

Not a bad rule for preventing this kind of twinkery though (really how many pistols need 3 points of RC when they're only expected to fire 2 shots per pass).


Still can get more RC from high strength, and cyberarm gyro though. Limiting the uncompensated recoil down to 1 or 2 dice. IIRC, you can still get 1 point RC from a weight done as a mod (not a sliding weight, that's SMG+ only, pistols don't have an underbarrel accessory point to get the weight as an accessory rather than a mod).


Another fun observation... by the book, pistols only have 2 location based accessory mounts. Top and Barrel. But many pistols have built in underbarrel gizmo accessories like flashlights or lasers off the shelf.

Ruger Thunderbolt W/Personalized Grip,Underbarrel Weight,Advanced rule str->recoil comp,and Internal Silencer,Internal
Smartgun System,skinlink..2 bursts, no Recoil..
Basic Guns that comes with a upgrades counted as unmodified and those upgrades does not count toward slot limit..
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DuctShuiTengu
post Jun 26 2009, 03:20 PM
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Ares Predator IV w/ Advanced Safety (Explosive Self Destruct), & Gecko Grip; RFID w/ Motion Sensor

Cost with a full clip of Explosive Rounds: 976 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (generous GMs may allow explosive bullets to enhance the damage of an exploding gun, though RAW doesn't give any bonus there).

Throw in a wired connection between the RFID tag and the smartgun, setting it up such that signal that something moved infront of the gun causes it to fire (likely requires a little help from someone with the appropriate technical skills). Remove wireless. Use runs as follows: Stick it to a wall next a door Corp-sec will need to go through to get to you, pointing across doorway. First person through the door gets shot by gun (make sure you're using this in areas where the only people besides your team who are likely to be coming through said doorway - you did warn your team about it - are hostiles). This should result in the rest of their team not charging through that doorway after you until they've done something about said firearm. Advanced Safety causes it to explode if someone who's not you tries to take it off the wall (recommend also attaching a timer, just in case). Hardly the set-up to use for a firefight, and no substitute for a drone for protracted engagements, but works well as a cheap way to delay persuit while you and yours either escape or find suitable cover.
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Traul
post Jun 26 2009, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (Mirilion @ Jun 26 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Also put in a cyberholster


In the arm, it's a cyberslide you want, not a holster.
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McAllister
post Jun 26 2009, 05:39 PM
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DuctShui... that's brilliant. In fact, you could probably slap a Safe Target System on that (200 nuYen) and slap stealth RFIDs on all your friends so you wouldn't have to worry about friendly fire. Stick ten of these in strategic places (the aforementioned doorway shot, or pointing around a turn), and you've got a pretty sweet area-denial system that ignores friendlies for 12,000.

Another idea; you could use the advanced self-destruct to trigger another explosive, either using the shockwave detonator to blow a fat pound of plastic explosive stuck to the wall next to the gun, or stringing detcord from the gun to whatever you need to blow up. If you have Arsenal, I recommend you read the advanced demolitions. I know I skipped it the first time I looked over the book, because it sounds boring as hell (Detonators? Gel? Foam? Breaching and cratering? Most runners just want a nice, easy rocket launcher), but it will almost certainly give you some fun ideas.
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Muspellsheimr
post Jun 26 2009, 07:00 PM
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Ruger Thunderbolt
- Smartgun System; Internal [Included]
- Firing Selection Change: SA [1]
- Sound Suppressor [3]
- Skinlink [1]
- Extended Clip [1]
- Gas Vent III [Barrel Mount]

Note: As previously mentioned, you cannot, by RAW, have a Gas Vent system on a Heavy Pistol. From what I have seen, though, this is almost universally house-ruled. If you are playing purely by RAW, change out the Sound Suppressor for a Silencer & Personalized Grip - less Recoil Compensation, but still very effective.


Rugar Super Warhawk
- Electronic Firing [2]
- Firing Selection Change: SA [1]
- Increased Cylinder [1]
- Skinlink [1]
- Smartgun System [1]
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DuctShuiTengu
post Jun 26 2009, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (McAllister @ Jun 26 2009, 07:39 PM) *
DuctShui... that's brilliant. In fact, you could probably slap a Safe Target System on that (200 nuYen) and slap stealth RFIDs on all your friends so you wouldn't have to worry about friendly fire. Stick ten of these in strategic places (the aforementioned doorway shot, or pointing around a turn), and you've got a pretty sweet area-denial system that ignores friendlies for 12,000.

Another idea; you could use the advanced self-destruct to trigger another explosive, either using the shockwave detonator to blow a fat pound of plastic explosive stuck to the wall next to the gun, or stringing detcord from the gun to whatever you need to blow up. If you have Arsenal, I recommend you read the advanced demolitions. I know I skipped it the first time I looked over the book, because it sounds boring as hell (Detonators? Gel? Foam? Breaching and cratering? Most runners just want a nice, easy rocket launcher), but it will almost certainly give you some fun ideas.


Thanks, though as is, it's more effective as a deterrent than a weapon (its dicepool to hit will range from negligible to nonexistant, depending on your GM). I like the improvements you suggested, though I'll need to look at the rules for explosives a bit more to see how best to implement that one.
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Shrike30
post Jun 27 2009, 04:36 AM
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We rolled things like ported handguns into the whole "personalized grip" thing... essentially decided that it really just covered overall balance tweaks, custom stippling, some porting on the weapon, a tweaked trigger with a different uptake... the kinds of things that people get done to their personal weapons to make 'em shoot well in THEIR hands. When you slap enough venting onto a handgun to make up for the kinds of recoil that they produce when fired full auto, you've basically moved into the machine pistol category anyways, in terms of size, so there was no real reason to expand gas vents into the smaller frame guns. You want to take a compact-frame semiauto with a full-weight slide and mod the sear so it starts ripping off rounds at 1600, 1700 RPM cyclic? Go for it. Control's just not the strong point here. Make it a little bigger, easier to get your hands on, and large enough that there's actually significant venting going on, and you're into SR's machine pistol/SMG size weapons; the gun has ceased to be a "light" or "heavy" pistol, it's a small automatic at that point.

Short version: we haven't had any need to houserule what you can install gas vents on.
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McAllister
post Jun 27 2009, 07:33 AM
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DuctShui, if you're worried about hitting things with this set-up (and you probably should be), trying switching to the Remington Roomsweeper. The strap-on smartgun system is only 250 (which is also the price of the gun), and you can set it to fire wide shot patterns. This won't even worry anyone with armour, but it helps as far as indiscriminate spraying goes.

And as for explosives, the only things limiting you are how much time you have in the facility to set up bombs, and how many pounds of boom you want to carry!
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